[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;7553925]
We can state, with a good deal of certainty, that Secretariat would hold his own, if not destroy, modern horses, given he still holds the stakes records for all three Triple Crown races (ok, technically he doesn’t hold the Preakness record because of a clock malfunction, but any reasonable person will agree he owns that one too).[/QUOTE]
If you could clone any race horse from history who would you choose? Exterminator to see what he could produce as a stud? Seabisquit? Man O’ War? Any mares? What about FunnyCide or Cigar or John Henry as breeding stock only?
BEVA put that article up about cloning eclipse on April 1st… I think it was just an April Fool’s joke that got passed around as fact
[QUOTE=ellevt;7560824]
BEVA put that article up about cloning eclipse on April 1st… I think it was just an April Fool’s joke that got passed around as fact[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but cloning hasn’t been a joke for some years now.
Well pooh! I really wanted a clone of Eclipse to exist some day soon. While I do understand and sympathize with the controversies surrounding cloning, I also believe that the chance to revive some bloodlines could be fabulous. Horses 100 years ago and more were bred so much hardier, sturdier, less dependent on drugs and meds.
Since they couldn’t be registered I don’t see any point in cloning any past TB. It would be an expensive oddity. I’d rather see that money go towards the welfare of current racehorses who end up in bad situations.
[QUOTE=summerhorse;7564402]
Since they couldn’t be registered I don’t see any point in cloning any past TB. It would be an expensive oddity. I’d rather see that money go towards the welfare of current racehorses who end up in bad situations.[/QUOTE]
Unless, of course, they run just as fast as the originals.
Aside from that, I can see a brighter future in cloning body parts than the whole horse. Replacing a cannonbone or fetlock, for instance, would save a horse’s life.
[QUOTE=WhiteCamry;7565543]
Unless, of course, they run just as fast as the originals.
Aside from that, I can see a brighter future in cloning body parts than the whole horse. Replacing a cannonbone or fetlock, for instance, would save a horse’s life.[/QUOTE]
What difference does it make if they can run as fast as the original if they can’t be raced or bred?
What about (if money were no object) cloning potential sporthorse sires? from some of the rare but known for sporthorses lines?
[QUOTE=HorsesinHaiti;7565963]
What about (if money were no object) cloning potential sporthorse sires? from some of the rare but known for sporthorses lines?[/QUOTE]
I think that was the reason behind cloning Gem Twist. He is not going to be used for sport, only breeding.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7565924]
What difference does it make if they can run as fast as the original if they can’t be raced or bred?[/QUOTE]
What difference does racing geldings make if they can’t be bred? Or mules, for that matter?
I see your point. Still, if a clone runs as fast as an original that would open a door to racing them, if not to the Jockey Club.
At first, anyway. But, then, the JC was never a leader in horseracing developments. A facilitator and record-keeper, yes, but never a leader; such are bureaucracies.
If someone can see a profit in racing clones then they’ll make it happen. If those clones can run as fast as a good original then we’ll see them at the track someday - the lesser tracks, at first. If they catch on with the bettors then we’ll see more of them. And if the established industry take their collective sweet time in recognizing them then a) it’ll be their loss until they wake up, and b) I wouldn’t be surprised.
And if they don’t catch on, then they don’t.
Here’s an historical example: in the late 1800s the stud books on both sides of the Atlantic were opened to new Arabian sire lines, on the theory that thoroughbreds by then had become too inbred. However, no new lines made any impact at the tracks or the studs, and the books were eventually closed; in the US in 1942 and the UK in 1967.
Another historical example: Before World War I the British jockey club often refused to register American thoroughbreds in their own stud book on the theory that - aside from the their traditional attitudes about Americans - the Civil War had supposedly destroyed any reliable records.
British racing didn’t mind worthy Yank entries - Pennsylvania-bred Iroquois won the 1881 Derby Stakes. But the British Jockey Club still wouldn’t register him. Not until after 1918 did they open their stud book to American sire lines, and that was only after they’d followed the French example.
Horses 100 years ago and more were bred so much hardier, sturdier, less dependent on drugs and meds.
It is already possible to compare populations of racing TBs because not every nation treats their horses in the same ways. UK horses are not ‘dependent on drugs and meds’. Australia has just banned use of steroids all year round. Horses that winter in Dubai may have an advantage over those that stay at home in the cold northern Europe - or not. German TB stallions are not allowed to cover if they have ever been medicated for soundness. There is enough difference in the type of animals for people to talk of ‘a NZ TB’ or ‘an Irish TB’ .
I’m not convinced that going back in time, by cloning, is really possible.
I think it would be fascinating to see the changes that have occurred over time. I suspect that Eclipse (or someone similar from that era) would differ quite a bit from modern TBs, and it would be very interesting to compare and contrast the two animals.
Scientists have extracted DNA from frozen mammoths and have kicked around the idea of cloning one and implanting it into a modern elephant. I believe the same goes for some of the now extinct equid species, or back-breeding to the original type.
IMO, I think that the idea of something being no good if you can’t breed it or race it is a bit shortsighted.
Cloning is the easy way out, horsemanship without the use of medication is the skilful way. Nowadays getting a horse racing fit is puny in comparison to times gone by when a horse was expected to travel many miles under its own steam to get where ever it was going.
Interesting discussion. And I have some of Spectacular Bid’s mane in a drawer. 
But if ever really done, I would much rather see them used for positive comparision/study for today’s issues, rather than competition. Although, of course, so much also depends on the conditions during gestation and as babies as well.
It is so sad that those tremendous horses of just a generation ago have not reappeared, and conditions no longer present (due to use of drugs/meds, speed vs. distance) continue to make it difficult for the best to rise to the top in the current day.
[QUOTE=WhiteCamry;7557956]
He does now.[/QUOTE]
That’s right. Remember reading about that.
Would be cool if the comparison videos were available for the public to see. :yes:
It is so sad that those tremendous horses of just a generation ago have not reappeared, and conditions no longer present (due to use of drugs/meds, speed vs. distance) continue to make it difficult for the best to rise to the top in the current day.
In the 1960s, 70s and 80s everyone purchased USA horses to race in Europe as they were tough and sound. The great Irish trainer Vincent O’Brien, made his name and his fortune on this system. Many Epsom Derby winners were USA bred or closely bred to American blood. (The great Nijinsky being Canadian bred.)
Today, foreign-bred horses horses racing in the UK come from Ireland (as usual) France and Germany. Germany, in particular, is recognised for tough, sound horses and this is much appreciated by trainers and breeders. There are no recent American bred group winners.
There is a $4 billion horse racing complex being built in China. Horses are being purchased from Ireland and Australia. Know how is coming from France etc. but not from the USA.
Makes you think
Declaration of War was a multiple G1 winner just last year.
But your overall point is correct in that they are much fewer now than the period of late 60’s through the mid 90’s when US bred horses dominated.
But here’s an interesting outlier stat that runs counter to all those trends… 4 of the last 10 winners of the St Leger (at 14.5f, the longest of the classic races and a test of stamina) were bred in the USA.
[QUOTE=CVPeg;7566703]
That’s right. Remember reading about that.
Would be cool if the comparison videos were available for the public to see. :yes:[/QUOTE]
It’s been on Youtube; no doubt 'twill be again.
I myself would be interested to know what he really looked like in comparison to the caricature paintings of the era. He couldn’t really have been that thin legged and stayed sound…(could he?)
