Edited Title: Horse NQR and Finally GOT Vet Involved: Update & Possible New Plan

[SusanO]

I think you need to get some hoof xrays to see how much sole depth you are dealing with. It is not unusual for a horse with thin soles or low grade laminitis to not be comfortable with sole pressure. I would spend money on this first before I paid an animal communicator to see what the problem is. Low grade laminitis might also make him uncomfortable in deep sand.

Also with the Equibands you are forcing the horse to use his hind end in a way he has not used it in 13 years and that can aggravate muscles and tendons that are not accustomed to working in this way. If you went out and changed up the way you walked or ran and then exercised this way for a long session you would be sore too.

There are a lot of moving pieces with his lameness/ reluctance to move - so instead of trying to get to the bottom of it piecemeal I would get a lameness work up from a vet.

[StormyDay]

@RhythmNCruise

He got sore on occasion from his former farrier too. And sore in the middle of a trimming cycle. He’s tender on the fronts. He lived for 10 years at my old place and never went on any footing other than our soft, grassy pastures (where he was turned out and ridden). The footing in the arenas where we board and of course gravel or rocks (which there isn’t much of, thankfully), give him a little bit of an issue. And they don’t always give him an issue, but he’s not as confident going on those surfaces as he is on grass.

I’m sorry but I’m going to be that person. These are so much classical low grade laminitis symptoms and warning signs. Lush grass = sugar spikes. Sore at random, sometimes from trims but other times just because = sugar spikes. Gravel hurts but grass is much better = no sole depth from laminitis. BTW, Magnesium is a common thing fed to prevent sugar spikes, so cutting it down might have actually caused some of what you are seeing.

I have this lovely mare, Callie. She had a laminitis attack in early may when our grass didn’t even look lush yet. We had a weird spring and it was still brown in a lot of places. She wasn’t overweight or even a very prone breed. She is just very sensitive, and I didn’t ever take laminitis that seriously. I thought it was something that happened to big draft breeds and fat small ponies. I didn’t know the warning signs that they don’t talk about so much, like low sole depth or just walking ‘slightly off’ on gravel. She never did that classic ‘lean back on the hocks’ stance and my vet actually thought she had an abscess when she first presented lame, but luckily I have a wonderful vet who took X-rays anyway.

She now wears a muzzle in turnout and that’s enough for her to be healthy. She has one of the thickest soles I’ve ever seen, canters across the gravel, and is back to telling me off when I insist we can’t hand gallop the ground poles or jump the trot poles like a water jump.

[Malda]

This sounds similar to my mare’s issues. I won’t go into the long back story, but she is barefoot (normal farrier) and a I’ve been using boots, Scoot boots specifically, on the front. Two weeks ago I put back boots on and in all four boots I put pads. It’s made a huge difference in how she moves. She wears them on the trail and in the arena.

Good luck, this “mystery stuff” can be so frustrating.

[RhythmNCruise]

No reason to apologize for “being that person”, you’re absolutely right. I am highly suspicious of something metabolic going on and laminitis being involved somehow. Milton’s mother foundered while he was still by her side. He had to nurse her while she was laying down at one point. She was euthanized after he was weaned (early). He also has at least one half-sister I know of who was euthanized due to founder. He’s definitely the type. He’s a heavy bodied horse, and while his feet aren’t tiny by any means, they’re a little small in proportion to his body.

I have definitely considered that cutting his Magnesium back and putting him on yucca (which is not supposed to be good for IR/metabolic types) could have caused the most recent tenderness in his feet. Because that came on before he was last trimmed and then the trim really had him sore. He was only on the reduced Magnesium and yucca for about a week when I realized things were going South and I switched him right back to his old joint supplement and the higher dose of Magnesium.

My very first horse (33 years ago) was an Appaloosa gelding who had been foundered. Back then we weren’t nearly so informed about it all, and I think about what we fed that horse (oats and sweet feed) and how we managed him. He’d have flare-ups of lameness a couple of times a year that we’d nurse him through, but we kept right on eventing him. Crazy!

Milton’s feet will all be getting looked at for sure. And if a grazing muzzle is needed, he’ll get one.

[RhythmNCruise]

@SusanO

There are a lot of moving pieces with his lameness/ reluctance to move - so instead of trying to get to the bottom of it piecemeal I would get a lameness work up from a vet.

This is exactly what’s getting done on October 15. And I agree with your comment about the equibands. He never showed much issue with them initially, and I haven’t really used them that much yet. But I half expected to see some sort of soreness from them.

This may all stem from his feet. Or not. That’s what we’re going to find out.

[2DogsFarm]

@RhythmNCruise

In other words…“You’re not buying into my BS and I need you to stop that right now.” LOL.

Yeah… Sounds like you ended up with a Poser
Neither AC I used was anything like her.
No BS about “blocked energy” or anything remotely WooWoo.
Straightforward simple sentences, coming “from the horses’ mouths”*

*minds

[RhythmNCruise]

That’s what I was hoping this woman was going to do. I was interested in seeing if she could maybe help with Milton’s various soundness issues. Maybe help me understand what was hurting or uncomfortable.

Nope. In fact, when he turned at one point to scratch his shoulder while she was trying to “tune in” to him, she immediately declared “That’s FAKE by the way! He’s faking that to get out of doing anything.”

Both I and my BO informed her that it most certainly wasn’t fake because he has allergies and gets itchy. He rubs and scratches himself darn near bloody at certain times of the year when his allergies flare…and he does it in his stall and the pasture when no one is asking anything of him. The AC was just frustrated that Milton was ignoring her, LOL.

I wanted to say “there’s something fake in this arena, but it sure ain’t Milton.” But I played nice.

She also said the reason he was blocking her was because he didn’t want her telling the truth about him. If you ask me, she was more worried that his “blocking her” was telling the truth about HER.

Milton had no use for her. It tickled me.

[2DogsFarm]

@RhythmNCruise

Milton had no use for her. It tickled me.

If you can scrape together the $60 , I think Lydia Hiby could give you your money’s worth.

[Bluey]

If something doesn’t make sense, it may just be nonsense.

Nonsense is nonsense, no matter who peddles it.

Hope the vet’s educated guesses help the OP’s horse better than nonsense has/may.

[RhythmNCruise]

Yeah, I’m kicking myself over the money I spent (which was a LOT more than $60) to listen to a bunch of BS from someone who can’t even tell that a horse is in pain.

I’m excited for the vet visit. If anything, the chance to rule out certain possibilities and hopefully pinpoint legit trouble areas will help.

I was watching a video of me riding Milton when he was 3. He was so unfettered by any issues back then. 10 years makes a difference. And he’s been ridden more over the past 2 years than he probably was for the entirety of his 8 years under saddle before then. He was unridden for probably close to 3 years prior to me selling my place and moving into boarding. And I have no doubt I asked too much too soon when bringing him back into work. Not that he’s asked for anything but w/t/c, but still.

I’m looking forward to just getting on him today and toodling around in the field. I wanted to go this morning but I had essays to grade and now have to go eat lunch with a cousin who is in town. Then it’s off to the barn.

[Bluey]

@RhythmNCruise

Yeah, I’m kicking myself over the money I spent (which was a LOT more than $60) to listen to a bunch of BS from someone who can’t even tell that a horse is in pain.

I’m excited for the vet visit. If anything, the chance to rule out certain possibilities and hopefully pinpoint legit trouble areas will help.

I was watching a video of me riding Milton when he was 3. He was so unfettered by any issues back then. 10 years makes a difference. And he’s been ridden more over the past 2 years than he probably was for the entirety of his 8 years under saddle before then. He was unridden for probably close to 3 years prior to me selling my place and moving into boarding. And I have no doubt I asked too much too soon when bringing him back into work. Not that he’s asked for anything but w/t/c, but still.

I’m looking forward to just getting on him today and toodling around in the field. I wanted to go this morning but I had essays to grade and now have to go eat lunch with a cousin who is in town. Then it’s off to the barn.

No need to kick yourself over being part of the culture you are immersed in and doing what such does, going along until some is not quite working and then searching for more.

In a way, politics and religion and animal communicators, etc. fall into that also, you have to be a believer, then it works and if you are not, well, you just don’t know, those are some we may go along when convenient, as part of the group you socialize with.

As humans we are in continuous communication with everything in our environment, filtered by our tendencies and experiences so as to only note what is relevant to the moment.
How we structure our beliefs around those experiences and follow those of others for guidance when it makes sense to us is just part of life.

When reading the first post, I was expecting part of it to be we did this and follow that with vets checking things all along for physical issues.
I think that is why some of us were tentative at first and asking about that.
It makes sense that you will be following that avenue, as that is part of the COTH culture, more than accepting something like animal communicators and their tenets at face value for this situation.

[RhythmNCruise]

Very wise words, Bluey.

Yes, I had already set up the vet appointment before I even knew about the AC coming out and deciding to do that as well. I really did it to just join my BO in something and have an entertaining day. In that respect, it was a success. It would have been nice if it had actually been helpful in getting insight into some of Milton’s physical issues, but I wasn’t really banking on that. I was banking on at least not being told my horse is stubborn and grumpy (he’s neither IMO) and that I have power and control issues, LOL. I’m about as passive as a person can be, but like my horse, I don’t suffer fools and nonsense easily (the older I get the more this is true!).

I do rely on COTH for a lot of advice. And like the “AC”, I consider it all and use what I find appropriate and disregard anything I don’t find useful.

I’m already researching grazing muzzles as I’m thinking that might be in Milton’s future. I like the GreenGuard brand the best so far, I think. He already has respiratory issues, I want something that is not restricting his breathing and that allows him to drink easily as well.

[NaturallyHappy]

Take a look at ThinLine. They are very lightweight.

[StormyDay]

Animals communicators are one of those things that seems to be really hot right now… and because of that I think there’s a lot of people out there claiming to be one.

I am very much a skeptic on it, due to my knowledge of how mediums work on people. They say things that are just vague enough you can make it true in your head. For instance ‘I’m seeing someone named John in your life’ you respond ‘yes, yes! That’s my father’
Well John is a very common name. Chances are you know someone name John. A boss, a brother, and ex. If there’s no bite, you have never met someone named John ever, then they will go ‘it’s evolving… it sounds more like Jack.’ And so on and so fourth.
If you really want to test how good a medium is (whether you are testing their actual ability or just their ability to recall names of other languages is another conversation entirely) have someone go to them that is from a non-English speaking country. Chances are that medium will not be able to come up with a common name from Ghana.

So as an animal communicator, you are already really set up for success here. Because there’s several inferences you can make off the bat;

1. there will be horses of certain colors in the barn (bay gelding, chestnut mare) that they interact with on a daily basis.
2. the owner of this horse cares enough about them to fork over the $ for this. They probably come at least a few times a week to see the horse, but also are probably not there every day.
3. the horse likely has some sort of physical or mental issue that the owner wants to fix.
4. just because of the fact that horses tend to have back, hock, and stifle issues, saying any of those hurt is a darn good guess.
5. the horse can’t speak up to correct me.

So the AC says “ your horse misses you when you don’t come to see him. He loves you very much and wishes he could speak to you directly. There’s a bay gelding he is best friends with. There’s a chestnut mare that isn’t very nice to him. He loves his grain and wishes he could get more. He wants to do better on your rides but his back has been hurting.”

Well chances are what I just said applied to your horse.

I do have to say though, I used to think back on track products were the biggest scam ever. There was zero research on it and I put it into the same category as people who wear copper bracelets and claim it cleanses their blood or something. But I have a bad knee and one time there was a BOT knee wrap that was 80% off, so I got it. And holy cow, did it help. I would have nights I could not sleep because of the pain and that BOT wrap helps enough that I can go to bed. So if anyone can prove me wrong here, I’d love to see it.

[Jackie_Cochran]

@StormyDay, I agree with you about the BOT.

My tale. My riding teacher switches my lesson horse every year or so (unless I am really helping the horse). One fine day she switched me to this Arab gelding. I was so excited!

Well, by the third walking stride I FELT that something was wrong with his loin muscles. Nobody else felt it, but in my callow youth I was riding a pony up and down STEEP, LONG
trails in foothills of the Andes mountains. my butt got used to horses, on loose reins, traversing challenging landscape quite well.

I figured out that I had to do something if I was to enjoy taking lessons on this horse at a walk and trot. I went on the web, looked at every product that claimed to help a horse’s back and settled on the Contender II BOT/ThinLine shimmable saddle pad. I ordered one.

The day it came my lower back was acting up big time. I hurt, moving was hard. I looked at my new pad, took it out of its package, put it on the bed and lay down on it.

5 minutes later my back did not hurt at all. I was a convert!

[Paint_Party]

@StormyDay

These are so much classical low grade laminitis symptoms and warning signs.

I’ve read all of the posts (honest!) and I tend to agree with the possibility of this being a low grade chronic laminitis. The symptoms are so similar to those of one of my all-time favorite horses (RIP, Mr. Man ). Plus it sounds like your horse may be genetically predisposed to this issue.

When you have your vet exam and xrays, I’d inquire about testing for Cushing’s/metabolic issues, just in case. Good luck and let us know. You’re a good Horse Mom!

[SuzieQNutter]

For the skin allergies. I use Permoxin. There are now generic products with the same chemical make up.

It will not burn at all.

If down to blood, use 3 times a day, working down to twice a day, down to once a day and if you are lucky once a week.

You add 10ml to 400 mls of water. Just use a sponge up the neck to the mane on both sides. Make sure you do the dock, the heels, etc. If you miss a spot you will know.

Allow to dry before putting a rug on. I use a neck rug combo as I refuse to use hoods.

You can mix with something else on the packet instructions if you want it to dry quicker. It is a lot cheaper to buy the 1 litre concentrate than the 250ml concentrate and a lot cheaper than other concoctions and it works.

It also kills ticks.

It can be used on dogs. It can not be used on cats.

Other products like Brute that says will work for days or weeks are all over forums for having burnt horses.

[RhythmNCruise]

Yeah, I’m getting very used to the idea that laminitis might be at play here.

I rode him this afternoon and he walked out of the stall a teensy bit apprehensive, had one funky “ouch” step turning as he comes out of the stall to the concrete aisle and then onto the mats at the cross-ties, which are right in front of his stall. I hand walked him after seeing that and took him out on the grass and turned him fairly sharply in both directions. There was some shortness/apprehension turning left but turning right was fine. I decided to go ahead and ride. He did pretty good! I walked a lot to warm up and at first he felt kind of like he was stomping along in his boots, but it got better and he was very forward today with big walk steps. When we finally started trotting he was a bit weird feeling, almost a head bob at times if I was turning/circling (which I didn’t do much of…kept it big in the field riding the fence lines). His head was up, he was clearly kind of unbalanced, but I just did quite a few transitions and left him his head so he could figure things out. He got better and better. Left lead canter felt very good and he went right into with no issues. Right lead canter felt a little like a pogo stick at first and very stiff and unwilling to bend. I did a few more transitions (by now his breathing was getting kind of labored and it was hot today, so I didn’t want to push too much). After a walk break on a long rein, I asked him for a trot still on a long rein and he did so promptly and kept his neck stretched down. I could feel some “oomph” coming from the back end today, so that made me pleased. I brought him down to the walk again and asked for right lead canter from the walk on a very long rein and he picked it right up, head and neck low, and felt much more relaxed and balanced than the pogo stick. I brought him back to trot and let him trot long and low and then we quit. He gave me some good nose blowing (clearing nasal passages) during one of our walk breaks. At first he was struggling with it, like he just couldn’t get anything out, but he finally did. I noticed back in the barn that he had just a tiny bit of snot (white/yellowish) in his nose. I wiped it out and then saw a little more when I had him on the wash rack. I sprayed the hose up his nose (he actually likes that, LOL) and he blew out again really good. No more snot.

Rubbed Sore No More all over him, put him in his stall with hay and water and a couple of treats, then just stood and pet him for a long time as we looked out his back window at…well, I didn’t see anything, but he seemed like he was binging his favorite show, LOL.

He’s my boy.

[RhythmNCruise]

An update and a question…
I think he’s improving each day. I have taken him out and lunged him in the field for the past few afternoons. He starts out hitchy and tender on what seems to be his front left. He’ll trot, but kind of putters along and has a head bob that comes and goes (comes more than goes at first and then starts getting better slightly). This is to the left. To the right he appears sound to me.
Once he canters to the left, he’s sound both ways and the more he works the better he gets. By the end of our session (which isn’t terribly long, maybe 15 minutes total?), he’s moving really nicely, is forward, easy to get into and out of canter, and surprisingly (because he’s always been such a slug) he keeps going and going at the trot and I have trouble convincing him to whoa and come back to walk. His walk, btw, is absolutely fine at all times, and his canter seems fine too.

It’s just the first five minutes or so of trot work to the left that has him head-bobbing. It’s significant enough at first that I almost think, “I need to stop and put him up,” but then I just keep tinkering with him, doing some transitions and trying to get him working from the hind end, and eventually once we’ve gotten that first canter to the left out of the way…bingo. Sound.

Is this likely with a hoof issue? My instinct still says that left front foot is what’s bothering him, but would he work out of it like that?

[starsandsun]

I had an AC session, and she assured me there was nothing wrong with my horse who was grinding HARD, felt off, and was just NQR. She maintained that he was just upset that I wasn’t as competent as my trainer and that made him nervous. Fast forward all of 10 days, and we found an OCD lesion in his stifle that required surgery, as well as squamous and glandular ulcers. But, at least she was correct that I didn’t ride as well as my trainer.