Eight Belles

[Albion]

[QUOTE=SBT;3187605]
I would be very happy to see eventing dropped from the Olympics, and just as happy to see racing restricted to horses age 4 and up…or done away with altogether. [/QUOTE]

You realize racing’s an international sport, right? Considering the Europeans are generally light years ahead of America when it comes to animal welfare issues and haven’t banned racing yet …

With all the horrible, HORRIBLE things people do to animals intentionally - like the dog who came into the rescue I fostered for with chemical burns over 50% of her body & a lower lip that had literally been sliced into ribbons by some asshole who then tied her up in Brooklyn, NY to die - the tiny number of horses (relative to the number of animals INTENTIONALLY being abused, mutilated, and killed for the pleasure of humans) who break down on the track or jumping fences or doing whatever it is low down on my list of ‘animal things to ban.’ How about we worry about sadistic assholes who INTENTIONALLY harm animals FIRST? Oh, right, we can’t even be bothered to deal with people committing FELONIES with animals (unless said person happens to be some overpaid football player :rolleyes:). Eight Belles’ connections didn’t set out to hurt their filly. The goal was not to cause suffering or make sure the filly didn’t come home in one piece if she didn’t win; and indeed, when it was clear that the filly was not in a situation that could be remedied, she was swiftly put out of her misery.

I hate to see any animal hurt or suffer - but Eight Belles was at least privileged enough to be in a nice situation, with a trainer (and other connections) who clearly loved her. Which is more than I can say for tens of thousands of other animals in America tonight. Euthanasia would be far kinder than the slow and painful deaths those animals have to look forward to. :no:

It’s a real shame people don’t get as upset and reach for the pitchforks when it comes to day-to-day animal abuse situations. Too bad general animal welfare can’t be the next ‘hot issue’ - would do a lot more animals a lot more good than a bunch of people on a BB piling on TB racing and eventing. :no:

[skatepixie]

Albion-exactly.

Yes, the loss of this wonderful filly is tragic, and horrible. However, no one intended it, no one wanted it to happen.

[Granada]

[QUOTE=DickHertz;3187587]

[QUOTE=Beverley;3187563]And it might help if you had any knowledge of appropriate dosages of banamine, by weight. Nor, in 50+ years of riding, have I heard of anyone administering banamine before riding a horse, period. Bute, sure. But not 10 cc’s. A gram or two. QUOTE]

I guess in your 50+ years of riding you’ve failed to realize that 10 cc’s of bute = 2 grams.[/QUOTE]

you are acting like an asshat, a single incident doesn’t represent an entire group of sportsmen.

And I am going to correct your drug conversions: 1ml=1cc=1g, so 10cc’s of a paste is normally 10 grams of the drug. (Banamine 10cc might be fine but not bute.)

[Seven-up]

[QUOTE=Kenike;3187051]
Thanks to a fellow board member who posted this on another board. Beware, the picture is graphic:
http://www.comcast.net/sports/articles/general/2008/05/03/RAC.Kentucky.Derby.Eight.Belles/[/QUOTE]

I don’t know what I’m more disgusted with: a “sport” where this happens countless times every day,

or with myself, because I can look at a photo like that one above and it doesn’t make me vomit anymore.

I won’t be watching racing again any time soon, but it’s not because I think my own personal boycott will make any difference. It’s because I simply don’t want to be the kind of tough son of a bitch that can just shrug and say, “it’s part of the game; it happens all the time.”

RIP little girl.

[I_m_EBO]

Albion, European racing is on turf, and their horses start later than those in North America. There are very few breakdowns on turf–it’s a slower and safer track, or maybe safer because it is slower. Look at post #261 for a discussion of tracks (among other factors affecting breakdowns). It’s right at the top of this page on my screen.

[teal_tea]

Wow, I did not watch the race today for the first time in years b/c I was attending a class and I’ve been incredibly busy lately. I didn’t even know who was racing. I’m so sorry for everyone who is or has been a part of Eight Belles life.

Even if I had watched the race live, I don’t know if I could say I would never watch racing again. I know that I felt so sick for days after watching Barbaro break down. But I started watching again. I don’t know what to say about today’s ending other than I’m very sorry. I realize there are risks with racing. But there are risks in so many of the equine sports such as Grand Prix jumping, eventing, roping, etc. I can’t just single out racing as being either exceedingly dangerous or ruthless for horses.

Having not seen the race and not suffered through watching this fillly break down, though, I really can’t comment on whether I wouldn’t want to watch racing again because of the chance of an accident happening. From what I’ve read, I’m glad to know that it seems she didn’t suffer for long.

[Albion]

[QUOTE=I’m EBO;3187696]
Albion, European racing is on turf, and their horses start later than those in North America. There are very few breakdowns on turf–it’s a slower and safer track, or maybe safer because it is slower. Look at post #261 for a discussion of tracks (among other factors affecting breakdowns). It’s right at the top of this page on my screen.[/QUOTE]

I’m EBO, I’m not stupid - I realize European racing is (on the whole) different than US racing. However, the statement by SBT was not qualified, and I think to say something to the effect of ‘It should all be shut down’ ALSO includes those precious turf races abroad. My point was that if it was SO AWFUL, the Europeans would be all over it - they’ve banned plenty of things under the name of ‘animal cruelty laws’ that are still in full force in the US. I find it more than a little ironic people are shrieking ‘I’m never going to watch eventing/racing ever again!’ when people are ALSO saying that if eventers took a page out of 'chasing’s book, things would maybe be going better (hmmm …). One of the finest horse people I’ve ever known trains 'chasers - I’ve seen some gruesome deaths at meets (a horse getting impaled springs to mind), but I’m not blaming otherwise fine people for ACCIDENTS.

I’m not saying nothing’s wrong with the way the US industry is set up. I AM saying that I DO NOT think the vast majority of trainers, riders, grooms, etc. go out of their way to HARM these horses, unlike many, many people who INTENTIONALLY inflict great cruelty on animals. Why is it that people get hysterical about a well-loved filly breaking down, but aren’t foaming at the mouth about the thousands of horrible people out there committing felonies with/against animals? What makes Eight Belles so much more special than all those poor dogs my rescue came across, but didn’t have room to save, or all those horses starving or being abused by asshole owners? What about the h/j horses drugged to the gills to pack their weekend warrior owner around? What about the casualties from other horse sports? At least she was well taken care of for her 3 years on earth, in comparison to this poor animal, who was intentionally mutilated by some person who has never faced any penalty (and sadly, her story is far from unusual. Guess she doesn’t count because she’s a ‘bad breed’ and isn’t a pretty, spindly legged TB). I’d take breaking both my legs & being quickly euthanized in a humane manner over suffering for god knows how long.

[LMH]

OK has common sense gone on vacation?

Please people let’s stop comparing to horses dying in the field, showing mature horses and racing a 3yo that was being trained and conditioned for one of the most demanding races in the sport. At 17h her spine was not even CLOSE to being closed.

What did I recently read? 80 % of race horses studied showed evidence of kissing spine by the age of 5yo?

I have no problem with the IDEA of racing but for heaven’s sake, her BONES snapped from the stress and immaturity.

She loved her job? Perhaps…but the last I looked a race is a pack of prey animals running full blown like their lives depend on it and someone aboard is whipping them to the finish line. Enjoy may have to be taken a bit loosely.

Certainly some horses enjoy the jobs they do and the very few excel to the point of fame, but let’s not make ourselves feel to good about the fact the no horse ever has walked into a barn, saddled herself and said LET’S GO!

She had NO idea she could die doing this-never made a choice to sacrifice her life for the race…horses don’t think that way.

I feel horrible for the owners, trainers and everyone involved. They are only doing what it is acceptable to do in that industry.

Perhaps it will take someone like them losing an animal to be a voice for change…

And let’s not forget Chelokee from only a few days ago-didn’t he suffer an injury JUST like Barbaro and is trying to be saved with surgery now as well?

There is a way to make racing still enjoyable, economically reasonable AND safe for horses-why should that not be a priority?

AND for the record, I am not just picking on racing-all competitive sports have dirty little secrets-racing just happens to be more public than others.

It is not a matter of abandoning the sport, it is a matter of making responsible choices on how the sport is operated.

[slc2]

“No one intended it”.

Not directly. But going fast on a horse is dangerous. When you put a horse on the race track, you are accepting that something could go wrong. When you watch a horse race on TV, you can’t expect nothing to happen. When you tune in the Kentucky Derby, you are accepting that certain things may happen. The Kentucky Derby has no special status in the world of probability that protects it from accidents.

Bones ‘closing’ was first challenged more than 10 years ago as a way to evaluate a horse’s readiness for sport.

I don’t believe in it any more, through reading the research i’ve come to believe it has no value, and is, in fact, a far, far too uneven, and at times, I]optimistic[/I] picture of readiness. But that came out 10 years ago - I worked for a company then that published veterinary research and got to read all the copy before it went to press . And I feel it was very adequately proven that ‘closed’ joints is no indication of a ready horse. I think a total picture is far better.

THe journal - and this was later published in general horse magazines - also made it clear that many times, a slight lameness 6-12 wk before a catastrophic breakdown is actually quite common. They proposed that many of these catastrophic breakdowns are the result of previous mild lameness not being rested long enough, and that new guidelines might be needed. That was a whole new area of research and one that had never really been put together. I’m not sure anyone can prevent something that we don’t have knowledge about, and since many studies don’t pan out I’m not sure anyone can govern their training methods by it yet.

It may be that in the future, horses are even more strictly evaluated for racing soundness, and that a mild lameness has to be reported and have a mandatory hold period. But until the research is backed up clearly, that isn’t valid and actually may cause MORE injuries (layups are actually very dangerous for working horses and can be associated with MORE injuries).

To attack people who say ‘racing should end’ is unfair. They have a right to their opinion. No one should be so rabid a fanatic or so blindly emotional that they can’t listen with respect to the other side. No position in the world is THAT sacrosanct.

Those against racing SHOULD be respectful enough to let those who aren’t, speak their mind.

No one can really hold any position or opinion in a non-fanatical way unless they fully understand both sides. To hold a position without understanding the other side is fanaticism and dogmatism and nothing more.

Our race track surfaces appear to have a big influence on the number of breakdowns. Research is pretty clear on that. However, synthetic surfaces will, I believe, still need some years to be proven. Synthetic surfaces HAVE improved human sport safety - but only after years of trying different surfaces, adjusting warmups and changing shoe types.

Fast riding sport is dangerous. Going fast on a horse is dangerous. All riding sports have some element of danger. Anyone should be able to understand that.

We have, as a society and a country, made the decision collectively that we allow horse racing. It is a legal activity. It has very little likelihood of becoming an illegal activity. IF it did, I am sure it would involve far MORE breakdowns, not less. The best thing about the racing industry is that it is extensively regulated.

I very much doubt older starts would prevent injuries. In fact, I think there would be more. Early work does seem to strengthen bones. However, I think the people calling for track surface changes may be right.

And it’s possible the track was inconsistent because it had been really sloppy the previous day and dried out very quickly. A hidden deep wet spot with a dry surface over it could have caused a problem.

And in fact, I think that the injury to Eight Belles is not at all clear. We’ve watched the videotape dozens of times…we still did not see a breakdown. We didn’t feel the horse took any bad steps after a clear misstep - she rather seemed to weaken and have a shorter, weaker stride, not an uneven one…and to THEN fall, which may have caused the injuries, it is not unheard of but injuring both forelegs is not a common event…but we didn’t really get a large, clear image on the video, so we’re not sure really what happened…but I think it’s possible something caused the horse to weaken and then fall, perhaps an aneurism. But again, we’re not sure.

[LouLove]

[QUOTE=Albion;3187721]

What makes Eight Belles so much more special than all those poor dogs my rescue came across, but didn’t have room to save, or all those horses starving or being abused by asshole owners? What about the h/j horses drugged to the gills to pack their weekend warrior owner around? What about the casualties from other horse sports? At least she was well taken care of for her 3 years on earth, in comparison to[/QUOTE]

She isn’t more special. She is placed in front of millions on Derby Day, and she is broken to pieces in front of the same. Everyone who has watched the same event at the same time speaks and feels. They have looked death in the face during one of the most prestigious sports events in North America, and they can’t bear it. Especially when it is of a hard running, polished and gallant equine. If the event wasn’t televised on mainstream television do you think it would get the reaction that it does? Families with children, grandmas and grandpas, teenage girls and boys who haven’t even touched a real life horse before watch the “pretty horse go boom”. Then everyone and their brother turns into an anti-racing advocate for 48 hours.

[LMH]

slc there is a link a few pages back that shows the break down and her legs give before the fall.

[Iride]

Does anyone know if Gabriel was injured when he fell? She went down so suddenly and so hard and thus so did he.

[Frog]

“She had NO idea she could die doing this-never made a choice to sacrifice her life for the race…horses don’t think that way.”

Respectfully, she didn’t have any concept of mortality to begin with.

[hundredacres]

[QUOTE=Frog;3187840]
“She had NO idea she could die doing this-never made a choice to sacrifice her life for the race…horses don’t think that way.”

Respectfully, she didn’t have any concept of mortality to begin with.[/QUOTE]

Excellent point.

But the fans are horse racing. Without the fans, there would be no racing…and we are very aware of mortality. We are saddened by seeing it so frequently…and we realize it happens every day…but speaking for myself, I don’t want to see it anymore. I am done putting myself through the anguish.

Remember when that Korean boxer got his head smashed so hard and died in a fight back in the 80’s? Before that, I really loved watching boxing with my brother and my boyfriend. After that it just kinda sucked. Then…Mahommed Ali and his disease that people speculated was worsened by all those blows t the head. It took all the fun out of watching it. I like to think I am possibly too civilized to handle watching bad things happen in entertainment. Which is why normal people don’t watch Jerry Springer.

[slc2]

LMH, I watched all the videos. I don’t agree with you that what you say happened is what happened. I see it differently.

[Galileo1998]

@I'm EBO;3187696

Albion, European racing is on turf, and their horses start later than those in North America.

No they don’t. Yesterday the 2000 Guineas was run at Newmarket, 1 mile for three year olds.

The winner, Henrythenavigator had his first start on May 6th of his two year old year and ran 4 times as a two year old.

The second, New Approach has his first start on July 15th of his two year old year and ran 5 times as a two year old.

The third, Stubbs Art has his first start on May 24th of his two year old year and ran 6 times as a two year old.

The only horse in the race that didn’t start as a two year old was a 250/1 outsider that finished 14th of the 15 starters.

The race before the Guineas was a Group 3 race for fillies and mares ages 4 and up. All but one horse in that race also races as two year olds.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=slc2;3187748]
“No one intended it”.

Not directly. But going fast on a horse is dangerous. When you put a horse on the race track, you are accepting that something could go wrong. When you watch a horse race on TV, you can’t expect nothing to happen. When you tune in the Kentucky Derby, you are accepting that certain things may happen. The Kentucky Derby has no special status in the world of probability that protects it from accidents.

Bones ‘closing’ was first challenged more than 10 years ago as a way to evaluate a horse’s readiness for sport.

I don’t believe in it any more, through reading the research i’ve come to believe it has no value, and is, in fact, a far, far too uneven, and at times, I]optimistic[/I] picture of readiness. But that came out 10 years ago - I worked for a company then that published veterinary research and got to read all the copy before it went to press . And I feel it was very adequately proven that ‘closed’ joints is no indication of a ready horse. I think a total picture is far better.

THe journal - and this was later published in general horse magazines - also made it clear that many times, a slight lameness 6-12 wk before a catastrophic breakdown is actually quite common. They proposed that many of these catastrophic breakdowns are the result of previous mild lameness not being rested long enough, and that new guidelines might be needed. That was a whole new area of research and one that had never really been put together. I’m not sure anyone can prevent something that we don’t have knowledge about, and since many studies don’t pan out I’m not sure anyone can govern their training methods by it yet.

It may be that in the future, horses are even more strictly evaluated for racing soundness, and that a mild lameness has to be reported and have a mandatory hold period. But until the research is backed up clearly, that isn’t valid and actually may cause MORE injuries (layups are actually very dangerous for working horses and can be associated with MORE injuries).

To attack people who say ‘racing should end’ is unfair. They have a right to their opinion. No one should be so rabid a fanatic or so blindly emotional that they can’t listen with respect to the other side. No position in the world is THAT sacrosanct.

Those against racing SHOULD be respectful enough to let those who aren’t, speak their mind.

No one can really hold any position or opinion in a non-fanatical way unless they fully understand both sides. To hold a position without understanding the other side is fanaticism and dogmatism and nothing more.

Our race track surfaces appear to have a big influence on the number of breakdowns. Research is pretty clear on that. However, synthetic surfaces will, I believe, still need some years to be proven. Synthetic surfaces HAVE improved human sport safety - but only after years of trying different surfaces, adjusting warmups and changing shoe types.

Fast riding sport is dangerous. Going fast on a horse is dangerous. All riding sports have some element of danger. Anyone should be able to understand that.

We have, as a society and a country, made the decision collectively that we allow horse racing. It is a legal activity. It has very little likelihood of becoming an illegal activity. IF it did, I am sure it would involve far MORE breakdowns, not less. The best thing about the racing industry is that it is extensively regulated.

I very much doubt older starts would prevent injuries. In fact, I think there would be more. Early work does seem to strengthen bones. However, I think the people calling for track surface changes may be right.

And it’s possible the track was inconsistent because it had been really sloppy the previous day and dried out very quickly. A hidden deep wet spot with a dry surface over it could have caused a problem.

And in fact, I think that the injury to Eight Belles is not at all clear. We’ve watched the videotape dozens of times…we still did not see a breakdown. We didn’t feel the horse took any bad steps after a clear misstep - she rather seemed to weaken and have a shorter, weaker stride, not an uneven one…and to THEN fall, which may have caused the injuries, it is not unheard of but injuring both forelegs is not a common event…but we didn’t really get a large, clear image on the video, so we’re not sure really what happened…but I think it’s possible something caused the horse to weaken and then fall, perhaps an aneurism. But again, we’re not sure.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Thank you for your informative post. You’ve given everyone a lot to think about and provided a very constructive direction for many to consider. Hopefully there will be an autopsy report soon.

[CAH]

@Sarah Ralston;3187558

There were 3 ambulances at the site during the broadcast I saw. How many other horses were hauled off? I think more horses were injured than were reported due to the poor filly’s break down.

Sarah - they knew immediately that it was a horrific situation. I knew when I saw her flat out that she was done. The two horse ambulances and the one human ambulance were placed so that the view of Eight Belles was blocked. Once she was euthanized they had to get her off the track - not a pretty site for anyone to watch.

First let me say my heart goes out to Larry Jones and all the connections to this great filly. Yes it royally sucks. And now for my next statement, which will probably get everyone upset. It could have been worse. Eight Belles could have WON the Derby and then broke down. Can you imagine the negative fallout to the industry? And for all of you that would like to see racing go away - the same can be said for eventing, jumping, or any other riding event. The difference here is that this occured on live television on the most popular day of racing. Breakdowns occur in all sports. The difference is that they do not receive the media coverage as with this tragedy.

[slc2]

i agree with the previous post. We have to understand how the public will react so this event. We know how WE will react - we talk to eachother all the time. But listen very carefully on Monday to what people say around the water cooler. It is going to be a very uncomfortable time for racing. Racing needs to be very, very open to reform and technical advances or it is going to look very, very bad for its future.

In a big way, catastrophic injuries are less draining financially than mild injuries. The future earning power of the horse is gone with a catastrophic injury and that may be a big concern for those at the top of the sport, but for the average owner, I’m not sure the economics are the same.

This means that any statistics that even suggest there are ‘more mild injuries’ on a synthetic surface will make people extremely hesitant to endorse them.

A horse with a mild injury must be supported while it recovers, which may require up to 18 months, it may need to be boarded out at a rehab stable or a place where it can have a very limited, structured recovery - something that doesn’t usually involve running around a bumpy pasture - or any sort of inexpensive arrangement. A friend of mine just had her horse at a top notch rehab facility for 18 months. It cost 2000 dollars a month. The math is impressive.

And then careful training must follow with graded exercise and frequent medical care. A race horse owner pays for every little thing done to the horse every day, from wraps to hand walking, and employee contracts and unions at tracks and training stables mean it winds up costing a certain inevitable amount. Veterinary care for sport horses is not cheap. After a long period of rest, rehabilitation and careful work, it may still have to be sold and a home found for it.

There is a great deal of financial insecurity around mild injuries. Even a mild injury can end a horse’s racing career. Even mild problems can slow a horse down or mean he must be raced so infrequently and in such cheap races that he doesn’t pay for his own keep, and there is always the worry hanging overhead that his career will end and any income he may bring in can’t be counted on or relied upon to materialize.

The top derby trainers and owners may be very wealthy, but to all the other people that run horses at Churchill, the very suggestion of more mild injuries than fatal breakdowns occuring would cause panic.

it may make the non horse public feel great to see synthetic surfaces reduce fatal breakdowns, but that is not the whole story.

[MeredithTX]

[QUOTE=Granada;3187691]

[QUOTE=DickHertz;3187587]

And I am going to correct your drug conversions: 1ml=1cc=1g, so 10cc’s of a paste is normally 10 grams of the drug. (Banamine 10cc might be fine but not bute.)[/QUOTE]

But when given IV, 2 grams of both Bute and Banamine is 10ccs.

Anyway, what a tragedy, and what a spectacular filly she was. I love horse racing, and while the breakdowns are heartwrenching and unfortunate, it will not change the way I feel about the sport. Technology has allowed us to improve track surfaces, carefully monitor a horse’s health, and even save horses that would have previously been euthanized. These horses have to earn their keep out there, but I would think that the safety of the horses is a bigger priority now more than ever before, especially in the upper echelons of the sport. It’s such an emotional sport, and while that is part of what makes it so exciting, it is also what makes a breakdown so horribly upsetting.

Like it or not, horse racing is really important to the equine industry as a whole. I will continue to watch and support it, and I applaud the continued efforts to further decrease the incidence of tragic breakdowns. RIP Eight Belles - you ran a hell of a race!