Engaging the back

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Color of Light;8860698]
I was wondering if you’d posted the wrong videos on accident.

I completely agree with Manni01. No connection. The girl has dropped her hands too low, elbows straightish and into her lap. There is no straight line of connection from the horse’s mouth to her elbow. There is a broken connection.

How is it that the horse is on the aids if the rider is not? The instructor asks her if the reins feel lighter. Of course they do, she’s not holding the reins properly and her hands aren’t closed. You can see her left hand open as she comes around past the camera, and she does that western open fingered waving motion to pull the head down. I think that explains the hands pulling the head down and the loopy rein. That is not how to get a horse to be on the aids, or to use it’s back.

There is no looseness in the gaits as there are in the first two videos where the horse is open, freely moving happily forward, swinging, has impulsion. The third video, the horse looks even more tense, not so happy, tight, suppressed, not swinging, but is mincing along almost looking strange behind (to me). Could be the bad footing.

When using the back, the energy comes from the hind legs, up/over the back, through the rider, into her hands, through the front of the horse and is recycled. I don’t see that here.[/QUOTE]

Tough crowd. I wasn’t aware that people could just pick up the reins and make a horse who has never used his back before use it. I will defer to you two in the future, since you seem to be experts on it.

If it was that easy, there wouldn’t be videos out there on how to do it. These are building blocks, small steps of progress that eventually create a skill that the horse is adept at. It doesn’t happen in one ride, and it doesn’t happen overnight.

I think it’s helpful for people like OP who may/may not have a background with dressage and training horses with dressage… as it shows progress that is not always linear and that the small steps of success along the way eventually lead to consistency, and eventually, mastery. Not everyone is working with a horse built for the job, like Ingrid’s horse is. Ingrid’s video shows a horse that has already been using his back for a long time, so it looks very different. That and the horse was probably bred to do such a thing - it comes much harder for the average horses like the video[s] I provided.

It’s funny you say the horse in the first video is moving openly, happily, and forward… He’s VERY tense, not using his back, and very looky. He is grinding his teeth and resisting the connection. He is not paying attention to the rider consistently. His head is in a “frame” so it looks like he is “better” but someone with an educated eye would know the difference.

[tbchick84]

In that 3rd video, the horse most likely would reach into contact if it was properly presented. The rider has her hands in her lap, her fingers are not closed around the reins, and her hands are too low so the line is broken. Sadly her instructor seems to be indicating to her that she is doing it correctly which is wrong. She has the first two building blocks of the dressage scale, but has hit a wall on step 3. We’ve all hit it, so it’s not a knock on the rider, but I wish her instructor would correct her position flaws and save her months or years of never having correct contact. This journey takes long enough with proper training.

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8856508]
I know there’s a thread here somewhere…

How do you engage a horse’s back correctly when they have never done it before? How do you know what it feels like when it has been engaged and raised? How do you encourage a horse to travel long and low when they never have in the past, without the use of gadgets like chambons and neck stretchers?

thanks,

an inquiring mind.[/QUOTE]

As you are asking this question, this tells me that you have never ridden correctly with a horse on the bit before and do not understand contact.

You say that the horse has never done it before.

This means that legs mean go and reins mean halt and turn. You don’t do the 2 together. If you do, you will end up with a confused horse. A confused horse is a horse that stamps, stops and won’t move, shakes it’s head, opens it’s mouth, bucks, bolts, spins and/rears.

If you hold the reins and kick you will teach the horse to rear. If you do it hard enough the horse will rear and topple over backwards and can kill the rider.

In the perfect world. This is something you should learn in person. It is something you should learn on a horse that already understands. The horse should be taught by someone who already knows.

Yes you can learn with an instructor on the ground teaching you and the horse. It is much slower but it is possible. I was taught that way. I would be years ahead now if I had done what I suggest.

Get yourself horse riding lessons on made horses. Put you horse in training with a trainer. You will come out years ahead of me.

[Manni01]

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/06/19/young-portuguese-star-goncalo-carvalho-inspires-young-riders

I just found this article in the Working Equitation thread. IMO it describes really nice how to proceed in order to work your horse over the back. I think the description is about in the middle of the article.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8860719]
Tough crowd. I wasn’t aware that people could just pick up the reins and make a horse who has never used his back before use it. I will defer to you two in the future, since you seem to be experts on it.

If it was that easy, there wouldn’t be videos out there on how to do it. These are building blocks, small steps of progress that eventually create a skill that the horse is adept at. It doesn’t happen in one ride, and it doesn’t happen overnight.

I think it’s helpful for people like OP who may/may not have a background with dressage and training horses with dressage… as it shows progress that is not always linear and that the small steps of success along the way eventually lead to consistency, and eventually, mastery. Not everyone is working with a horse built for the job, like Ingrid’s horse is. Ingrid’s video shows a horse that has already been using his back for a long time, so it looks very different. That and the horse was probably bred to do such a thing - it comes much harder for the average horses like the video[s] I provided.

It’s funny you say the horse in the first video is moving openly, happily, and forward… He’s VERY tense, not using his back, and very looky. He is grinding his teeth and resisting the connection. He is not paying attention to the rider consistently. His head is in a “frame” so it looks like he is “better” but someone with an educated eye would know the difference.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to have a different opinion then your trainer with his high credentials. And I prefer to look up to somebody at the top like I.K. with her perfect trained horses. I might have never have a horse like this and might not be able to train like her, but I believe that reaching for higher standards will push me harder. And I don’t believe in accepting excuses like a horse not bred for something.
I just watched the video of the PSG winner at regionals, the Haflinger and I loved him. This breed was not really specifically bred for FEI Dressage but still this horse is doing an amazing job. I guess at some point somebody believed in him.

And I agree with tbchick84 about this 3rd video. I do not want to critizise this rider and the horse. there are many nice things about the video. But its not a good example for somebody riding his horse over the back, because IMO the forward moment is missing. This horse is not moving actively forward from his hindlegs over the back towards the front like in the video of I.K.

[Dressage_Strider]

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8860780]
As you are asking this question, this tells me that you have never ridden correctly with a horse on the bit before and do not understand contact.

You say that the horse has never done it before.

This means that legs mean go and reins mean halt and turn. You don’t do the 2 together. If you do, you will end up with a confused horse. A confused horse is a horse that stamps, stops and won’t move, shakes it’s head, opens it’s mouth, bucks, bolts, spins and/rears.

If you hold the reins and kick you will teach the horse to rear. If you do it hard enough the horse will rear and topple over backwards and can kill the rider.

In the perfect world. This is something you should learn in person. It is something you should learn on a horse that already understands. The horse should be taught by someone who already knows.

Yes you can learn with an instructor on the ground teaching you and the horse. It is much slower but it is possible. I was taught that way. I would be years ahead now if I had done what I suggest.

Get yourself horse riding lessons on made horses. Put you horse in training with a trainer. You will come out years ahead of me.[/QUOTE]

What on earth! I don’t agree with this at all. If OP had time and money for sending horse off to training and getting lessons from someone else, s/he would just buy a ready made horse! There are certainly options for training a horse to move correctly without it being a danger.

Have you never ridden a green horse before? In the beginning, legs usually mean go and reins usually mean halt and turn!

It’s definitely ok to start there and then slowly teach the horse what the aids actually mean.

[Engage]

First off, to me an engaged back doesn’t actually feel high or up in front. That feeling exists for me just before a horse is ready to properly engage his back. When he is working correctly, it feels (to me) like there isn’t much up in front of you OR behind you, but more solidly underneath you. It feels like you have just been given a broader, sturdier seat to sit on, that has energy circling within it. You know those fake wave machines? I think if you contained that in a big closed oval, and sat on it, you would get a similar feeling. Also the mouth feels not lighter, but softer, and more attentive to smaller cues, again with energy circling between bit and hand.

What has mostly worked for me asking a horse to work through, is firstly getting them to step deeper with their hinds. Once they understand that cue, they need to learn to not throw that energy out the front, but to use it to lift through the wither and round up the back. That’s where contact come in. I have general good success with asking a horse to move forward, step deeper, then asking them to yield to contact - in the beginning, they will often lose one phase when moving into the next, but slowly and surely, you bring the two phases closer together until they understand how to step under and yield to contact but lifting through the back.

My current boy does this best if I put him on a 20m circle and just keep asking him to step under and lift. I play around with how often I ask - every 2 strides, every 4 strides, every quarter circle - just so he doesn’t get bored or blase. As he engages more and lifts more, I can ask for more, until he is properly working through.

[lorilu]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8861506]
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/06/19/young-portuguese-star-goncalo-carvalho-inspires-young-riders

I just found this article in the Working Equitation thread. IMO it describes really nice how to proceed in order to work your horse over the back. I think the description is about in the middle of the article.[/QUOTE]

Her blog is consistently wonderful.

[J-Lu]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8856508]
I know there’s a thread here somewhere…

How do you engage a horse’s back correctly when they have never done it before? How do you know what it feels like when it has been engaged and raised? How do you encourage a horse to travel long and low when they never have in the past, without the use of gadgets like chambons and neck stretchers?

thanks,

an inquiring mind.[/QUOTE]

I think the easiest answer is to find a qualified and accomplished dressage trainer/instructor to come out and give you lessons. “Eyes on the ground” are paramount, and this is why even our top GP riders have trainers. A good trainer can give you exercises that will work for you and your horse, and be able to tell you when your horse is “there”. THAT’s the feeling you’ll want to keep going for. Over time with lessons, your horse will figure out how to be engaged to the ability he can engage - he’ll learn this new way of going, and with strength training, he’ll get better and better.

No gadgets.

[qhfan2]

I cannot add any additional insight for the OP than what’s already being discussed by other comments. The only thing I would like to add is that to this day, I still remember the first time my gelding started to use his back! I can only share how happy I was at that moment. Like someone else said, the light bulb does go off. For me, I was a newbie, training a newbie with the help of an outside trainer. I still smile thinking of the moment. Good Luck!

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=Color of Light;8860698]
I was wondering if you’d posted the wrong videos on accident.

I completely agree with Manni01. No connection. The girl has dropped her hands too low, elbows straightish and into her lap. There is no straight line of connection from the horse’s mouth to her elbow. There is a broken connection.

How is it that the horse is on the aids if the rider is not? The instructor asks her if the reins feel lighter. Of course they do, she’s not holding the reins properly and her hands aren’t closed. You can see her left hand open as she comes around past the camera, and she does that western open fingered waving motion to pull the head down. I think that explains the hands pulling the head down and the loopy rein. That is not how to get a horse to be on the aids, or to use it’s back.

There is no looseness in the gaits as there are in the first two videos where the horse is open, freely moving happily forward, swinging, has impulsion. The third video, the horse looks even more tense, not so happy, tight, suppressed, not swinging, but is mincing along almost looking strange behind (to me). Could be the bad footing.

When using the back, the energy comes from the hind legs, up/over the back, through the rider, into her hands, through the front of the horse and is recycled. I don’t see that here.[/QUOTE]

@tbchick84;8860763

In that 3rd video, the horse most likely would reach into contact if it was properly presented. The rider has her hands in her lap, her fingers are not closed around the reins, and her hands are too low so the line is broken. Sadly her instructor seems to be indicating to her that she is doing it correctly which is wrong. She has the first two building blocks of the dressage scale, but has hit a wall on step 3. We’ve all hit it, so it’s not a knock on the rider, but I wish her instructor would correct her position flaws and save her months or years of never having correct contact. This journey takes long enough with proper training.

Connection

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8860719]
Tough crowd. I wasn’t aware that people could just pick up the reins and make a horse who has never used his back before use it. I will defer to you two in the future, since you seem to be experts on it.

If it was that easy, there wouldn’t be videos out there on how to do it. These are building blocks, small steps of progress that eventually create a skill that the horse is adept at. It doesn’t happen in one ride, and it doesn’t happen overnight.

I think it’s helpful for people like OP who may/may not have a background with dressage and training horses with dressage… as it shows progress that is not always linear and that the small steps of success along the way eventually lead to consistency, and eventually, mastery. Not everyone is working with a horse built for the job, like Ingrid’s horse is. Ingrid’s video shows a horse that has already been using his back for a long time, so it looks very different. That and the horse was probably bred to do such a thing - it comes much harder for the average horses like the video[s] I provided.

It’s funny you say the horse in the first video is moving openly, happily, and forward… He’s VERY tense, not using his back, and very looky. He is grinding his teeth and resisting the connection. He is not paying attention to the rider consistently. His head is in a “frame” so it looks like he is “better” but someone with an educated eye would know the difference.[/QUOTE]

But the girl isn’t holding the reins, and using the back isn’t about just the reins. It’s also about correct seat and leg aids. So yes, if a rider knows how to apply the aids and has the timing right, a horse who’s never been properly ridden back to front can/will use it’s back. Or even this horse in all 3 videos, who is ridden with no front or no back would use his back if he was encouraged to. He is not being ridden over his back, so no, he is not using his back. No way that he can like that.

Compared to how the horse is moving in the 3rd video (tight, mincy, stiff, hind legs are not active), you are correct that I prefer how he’s moving in the first videos. Why? Because to me he’s more open, more happy in his expression, more forward. Is he moving over his back? NO. Is he connected? NO. You say he’s resisting connection and teeth? Connection is not just about the head. Connection is not the “f” word (frame).

You have to have forward first to get connected and to engage the back. Because he has more forward in the first videos, take that energy that he’s giving here and take it from the hind legs to engage his back.

Teeth grinding…sound was off, video is poor, hard to see. I’ll go back and review with sound and large screen when I can.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Color of Light;8869647]
But the girl isn’t holding the reins, and using the back isn’t about just the reins. It’s also about correct seat and leg aids. So yes, if a rider knows how to apply the aids and has the timing right, a horse who’s never been properly ridden back to front can/will use it’s back. Or even this horse in all 3 videos, who is ridden with no front or no back would use his back if he was encouraged to. He is not being ridden over his back, so no, he is not using his back. No way that he can like that.

Compared to how the horse is moving in the 3rd video (tight, mincy, stiff, hind legs are not active), you are correct that I prefer how he’s moving in the first videos. Why? Because to me he’s more open, more happy in his expression, more forward. Is he moving over his back? NO. Is he connected? NO. You say he’s resisting connection and teeth? Connection is not just about the head. Connection is not the “f” word (frame).

Teeth grinding…sound was off, video is poor, hard to see. I’ll go back and review with sound and large screen when I can.[/QUOTE]

You can see the teeth grinding. We will have to agree to disagree, as to me, the first video shows a tight, tense horse that is very UP - not at all relaxed or using his back. He is grinding his teeth. He is resisting contact. There is no connection, there is a frame. To the untrained eye perhaps he looks like he is “on the bit” because he keeps going in a frame, but he is very locked behind and is pulling himself along with his shoulders.

I’m guessing you’re seeing the head is in the right place in the first example and you think that’s what dressage is?

The second example shows the opposite of that, a relaxed horse that is rhythmic and using his back. I don’t see tight or mincey. The footing is on a slight hill and I do see a change in degree of step under up/down the hill, but the horse is absolutely using his back. Look at the relaxation of his tail and the swing as he pushes off from each hind. Watch him on the even (grassy) areas and you see him track up much better. You can see it from the trapezius all the way down to the hamstring grouping - look at the rolling of muscling under the saddle, by the point of hip, from one side of the hip to the other; if you can’t see those muscles moving you need to study, study, study. This is the beginning of the puzzle, it’s not the end product - it’s going to look very different when he’s used to using his back and not just pulling along with his shoulders in a frame. It’s far from perfect.

The next piece of the puzzle for the horse would be to work on ‘impulsion’ as he engages his back, as he gets stronger he will learn to use his back with more power.

It’s very hard to teach a green horse to use its back without losing some piece of the puzzle, and it isn’t something that happens overnight. You go one step forward, two steps back… It’s also hard to teach them to reach for the contact when they have never done that before. To expect a horse that is not used to using its back to move out perfectly in exact cadence, rhythm, uphill balance, STRONGLY and consistently is erroneous and unfair to the horse. It’s also silly to think that using the back only happens if the rider is holding the bit - horses can and do use their back without a rider present. It’s hard for them, they don’t get it at first. You start small and build bigger, and the video demonstrates that; this is one piece of the horse’s education.