I need a 20ft beam to span the width of the barn aisle, and it will serve as the header that goes across the top of the stall walls, and the track for the sliding stall doors will be mounted on it.
Do I need engineered lumber or can I use a std 2x10" board?
On 20’ and with a center support?
You may be fine with a regular board.
I have something similar in the garage, but it is clear span over 22’, so the framers went ahead with a gluelam beam there, only place in the whole house they used that.
Thanks, I’m thinking the same. Main question in my mind is whether it will warp/twist, but given 3 posts in the 20ft space, I think it sh be ok.
an engineered beam is less likely to warp, it should be nearly impossible to warp…
but since this not a load beam it could be fabricate on site since it does not require a rating
So as to get a clearer picture; Is the entire beam “free span”? In others words it will not be secured anywhere but at the ends and in the middle? If so my main concern would be “wobble” in the middle. To get a more rigid/stiff beam just get 2 and “sister” which means nail or screw 2 together. I would also use a glue like Liquid Nails that is applied with a calk gun. Apply in “swirls” or a “Z” pattern down the entire board. To make it really rigid/stiff cut/rip a sheet of 3/8+ plywood to width and "sandwich’ between the 2 boards. Apply glue also. This should definitely keep it from wobbling and warping. I like using deck screws for this sort of thing if you have a Impact driver or Drill driver. 20’ boards are not a common stocked size at places like Home Depot and such and can be pricey at a lumber supply. Using an two 8’ and 12’ will do the job. But if there is not much price difference save the extra work. Lay out the 8’ board, then the 12’ board, if you are using the plywood sandwich start with a 4’ strip cut to width glue and screw with a couple of nails/screw and then add a full 8’ strip (standard plywood comes in 4X8 sheets) secure and add the last 8’ strip, 4+8+8= 20’. On top of the 8’ board you started with lay the second 12’ on top and then the 8’ board. Now you have made your own “engineered” beam with no “breaks” meaning no ends on top of each other with plywood in-between. Without the plywood it is very obvious why you have to do it this way.
I would add a “king stud” under the ends even though you are using joist hangers unless you can screw/nail the ends from the other side of post. A “king stud” is just a 2x board the width of the post that is cut to fit snug under the beam. I always use deck screw on this sort of thing that is subjected to a lot use, opening and closing of doors, sliding or hinged. Nails can and do work themselves loose over time. Plus if a mistake is made it is much easier to unscrew and fix/adjust then something that is nailed.
This may or may not be what you need. I am much better with pictures of the project or even better standing in front of it. The above maybe “over engineered” for what is needed to get the job done with as little work and materials as called for.
Thanks, all.
Gumtree, this is a 110+ yr old barn–nothin’ square, straight or plumb. 
The hay mow (center section of barn) is ~19ft wide. This picture is from before we got that section of the barn emptied of al the hay, and put in a stone floor. But anyway, the header will run across this space, attached to the pair of posts that are even with the ladder. They’re 10x10" posts (so, no, we won’t be drilling in from the back of those babies :lol:).
The center post (not installed yet) will anchor the stall divider wall (perpendicular to this header). Then add two more posts at 4ft either side of that center post, to frame the stall doors.
We went ahead and got the 20ft pine board today. Good suggestion to sister another board up behind it-- that’s something we can do mid-stream if things feel wobbly. I like the king stud idea, too. That would be easy enough to add to the plan
Neat barn. I believe it is a called a “crib barn” for storing lots of corn in its day. Ours is an English Forebay bank barn. Quite large, the front section built around 1700 and the much larger Forebay in the early to mid 1800s according to a local historian. It had already been converted from dairy to horses with 20 stalls when we bought the property but needed a lot of TLC.
The picture helps a lot. Considering you are making 2 stalls to hold horses you need to make sure you build this so that everything “locks in” tight so as to withstand a 1000 lb horse knocking against things. A 1000 lb horse carries a lot of “potential energy” if you remember your High School physics and it doesn’t take much movement to exert a lot of force. Just rubbing their butts against things will move things around.
If you are not going to run the center beam up to the cross beam which is quite high you will need to “tie” this together with another beam from the center of the beam “header” though it really isn’t a header, to the post in the back. Forming a “T” and you may want to use structural metal mounting hardware
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Building-Materials-Builders-Hardware-Structural-Metal-Mounting-Hardware-Joist-Hangers/N-5yc1vZaqxb figure out what works, suites the project. You can get ones that will secure the post to the cement floor if that’s what you are setting it on. You just drill a hole in the concrete set the fitting on it and use the appropriate expansion bolt or epoxy a bolt in the hole. Set the post on top and bolt, screw. Joist hangers though handy for this sort of thing are not really engineered for this kind of project. I would choose something much “beefier”. If the middle support post was going to be secured to the existing barn beam above and then the “header” beam you are installing a single 2X10 bolted, lag or carriage preferably, screwed, nailed should be sufficient for your purposes you are only spanning less then 10’ on each side. But if the post is only going to be set under it I think you definitely need to double it up for stiffness and control warping. And must add another “beam” in the middle to form the “T” as above for bracing effect. I would go no smaller then a 4X6 or the larger 6X6 for the posts.
IMO all structural components should be bolted with lag and carrage which ever is appropriate. If you have a Tractor Supply they sell bolts by the pound instead of by the bolt at Home Depots and such. Much better savings. Use deck screws that have the “star” driving heads on them. Pricier then others but worth the money. If you don’t have an Impact driver I strongly suggest sucking up the cost they are worth every penny. I am quite happy with my Milwaukee Impact and Drill driver, quick charger and battery combo around $250±. The Impact driver is strong enough to send lag bolts home. 2X8 tongue and grove for stall walls if you can get them. If not “stacking” 2X8, 10s works but secure the middles with strapping steel, flat iron. Screw together and grind the ends smooth. This will keep the boards from flexing out of the pockets on either end when a horse leans on them. If using King studs to place the beam on cut a pocket the width of the beam for easy placement and securing. You might want to stake 2 together for a nice deep pocket and a solid lateral strength. Some of this may be appropriate or not for this project. Some maybe over kill I am just working off of a picture. I am much better at figuring these things out when I am standing on the site. Sorry if I went into detail that you may all ready know or understand. Maybe helpful to others who don’t.
This is all just my opinion off of a picture. But I do have a fair bit of experience with these sort of projects and barns. As always to each their own. I fully understand that a tight budget can get in the way of doing things the way we would like. But this is the sort of thing where penny wise, pound foolish can kick in and having to do things over again.
Gumtree, wow 20 stalls-- that’s huge. This one has the center hall, and two smaller side sections-- one for dairy the other for the draft horses. They painted the horses’ names above each straight stall, it’s faint but still visible. We think this is circa 1900-1905 based on tax records and the types of nails they used.
I think we’re well-aligned with most of your thoughts. --we will have the T-beam arrangement you suggested to tie into the back of the barn. And we decided last night to go ahead and get another beam to sister up with the one we’ve got. I’m sure there will be 15 or more return trips to town to get stuff we need. ha
The 6x6 center post will be on a cement footer that we poured over the weekend (and we used one of those cast-in-place type anchors so the bolt’s already in there).
Will swap out the 4x4 door frame posts for 4x6. I kinda knew 4x4 wasn’t sufficient, you have successfully shamed me into doing it right.
We do have an impact driver from a deck project last year, and will use the star screws.
The T&G lumber is cost-prohibitive. I know it’s way better but I’m just going to have to cut this particular corner. 10-4 on using wall stiffener strips to tie the boards together, that was already in our plan.
Thanks again for taking the time to think about this! It’s been really helpful. Our plans have been made after about 18million hours of standing in that space staring at the walls, drawing things out, staring at the products on the hardware store shelves, etc. I’ve thought about this so much that sometimes I wake up with ideas on how to solve a given problem–so basically I’m even obsessing about this in my sleep. :lol: So where we already match your advice, I feel quite proud but you’ve added some good improvements.
Gumtree, I think I might need to see some pictures of your barn. Yes, as a matter of fact, I really really do need to see some pictures of your barn. :yes:
Hungary Hippo, I wish I had your barn to ruminate over - very jealous.
[QUOTE=AnotherRound;7239515]
Gumtree, I think I might need to see some pictures of your barn. Yes, as a matter of fact, I really really do need to see some pictures of your barn. :yes:
Hungary Hippo, I wish I had your barn to ruminate over - very jealous.[/QUOTE]
Is it just my computer and connection, Fios, or is Photo Bucket just PAINFULLY SLOW? Been meaning to put house and farm renovation pics on our web site which is a lot faster and easier then Photo Bucket. Had I known I would have done it tonight. But these will give you an idea of the place. Sorry, couldn’t take the pain any longer and didn’t put up any of the interior which is not completely finished anyway. Nor are there any really good ones of how it looks now. When we bought the place going on 12 years ago we lived in one room and showered in a gutted apartment in the barn. Everything had to be redone, electric, plumbing, remodel, fencing, on and on and on. Pretty much all done by myself along with looking after a rather large horse population. At one point foaling 30 mares. Breaking 12, training another 10, re-schooling, a bit of hunting and a lot of racing, etc-ect-ect. It has surely tested our marriage. If I were her I would have thrown myself out a long time ago. Hope this link works!
http://s1136.photobucket.com/user/gumtreestables/library/Barn?sort=3&page=1
[QUOTE=HungarianHippo;7238560]
Gumtree, wow 20 stalls-- that’s huge. This one has the center hall, and two smaller side sections-- one for dairy the other for the draft horses. They painted the horses’ names above each straight stall, it’s faint but still visible. We think this is circa 1900-1905 based on tax records and the types of nails they used.
I think we’re well-aligned with most of your thoughts. --we will have the T-beam arrangement you suggested to tie into the back of the barn. And we decided last night to go ahead and get another beam to sister up with the one we’ve got. I’m sure there will be 15 or more return trips to town to get stuff we need. ha
The 6x6 center post will be on a cement footer that we poured over the weekend (and we used one of those cast-in-place type anchors so the bolt’s already in there).
Will swap out the 4x4 door frame posts for 4x6. I kinda knew 4x4 wasn’t sufficient, you have successfully shamed me into doing it right.
We do have an impact driver from a deck project last year, and will use the star screws.
The T&G lumber is cost-prohibitive. I know it’s way better but I’m just going to have to cut this particular corner. 10-4 on using wall stiffener strips to tie the boards together, that was already in our plan.
Thanks again for taking the time to think about this! It’s been really helpful. Our plans have been made after about 18million hours of standing in that space staring at the walls, drawing things out, staring at the products on the hardware store shelves, etc. I’ve thought about this so much that sometimes I wake up with ideas on how to solve a given problem–so basically I’m even obsessing about this in my sleep. :lol: So where we already match your advice, I feel quite proud but you’ve added some good improvements.[/QUOTE]
Your welcome.
“Our plans have been made after about 18million hours of standing in that space staring”
I know the drill VERY well and I have done a fair amount of renovation of old houses.
When I had to redo a section of our barn roof, 2,600 sqft I knew it was going to be a can of worms but I under estimated how big a can. Putting the shingles on took a little more then a day. But the whole project took 5 weeks, granted I had horses to work with also but my friend, who is a trim carpenter by trade, and I spend umpteen hours just figuring out how to go about it. It was the original section and still had the hand hewn rafters many of which were rotted, major support post, beams were failing, the people who worked on it over the years really didn’t have a clue what they were doing. If one nail was good 20 was better. Had to jack up the 'newer" addition ridge beam 6 inches, they built it with a 25 foot cantilever supported, rather resting on some 1 by, it is amazing it stayed up. Another good snow storm would have brought that whole section down. And it would not have been covered by insurance due to lack of maintenance is what I was told by my agent friend. Couldn’t find the pictures of the project to put up. Quite impressive for 2 people, a tractor, couple of jacks and 5 come-alongs. If I ever have to do another one I’ll be able to do it in a fraction of the time now that its been figured out.
The farm and house is a William Penn land grant. We have the original deed signed by Penn in 1680 and there is still over 100 acres left from the original 500. The log section of our house was built in 1691.
Good luck, feel free to get on to me if you have any questions.
No questions, look wonderful, what a job!:eek:
Our farm house deed was recorded on sheepskin and dated 1721.
We thought that was old.
1691 beats it handily.
Cross beams are commonly used for this purpose. Wooden cross beams and aluminium cross beams both can be used for providing support. Pine beams are also good in used and reliable as compare to others.
Gumtree, that is an outstanding job you are doing renovating a barn that old, but owwwww! your fingers! House looks wonderful, the whole place, I could just move right in.
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