Enlightened Equitation, Pelhalm and Dressage?

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7971902]
Not to argue - but I wouldn’t say that a pelhams is ONLY a curb bit… It does have a snaffle rein, which CAN be used independently - so its basically a mullen mouth and a curb bit in one. [/QUOTE]

Yes, but the degree to which you can separate the action of the mouth piece alone vs. the quickness with which you engage the shanks is different in a double bridle vs. a Pelham.

In a double bridle, you can create a difference by choosing the relative lengths of your snaffle- and weymouth reins. In the Pelham, you have less choice (at least by a tad). The relationship between the speed with which you touch the horse with the mouthpiece alone vs. the shanks is determined by the length to the shanks (and how much you raise your hand.)

My sense, too, is that dressage has a training philosophy built around a particular idealized relationship with the bit. In no other discipline does anyone care so much about the degree to which the horse goes up and pushed on the bit. “Everyone”-- From dressagists to vaquero types making bridle horses that go in big spade “signal bits”-- ends up using less contact and treating bits like signal devices. That is to say, I’m not sure upper level dressage folks care so much that their horse in a double bridle pushes into the contact with both those bits. (Though they do want a horse whose head and neck they can put anywhere they want; no finished dressage horse should be hovering behind the contact, way too curled up.)

But the reason you don’t use a Pelham anywhere in dressage has to do with the particular way that discipline imagines using a snaffle bit to get the horse to use his head, neck and body as he’s learning and building the particular kind of strength and fitness he’ll need for collection later on.

Just my .02 on this very interesting, smart question. Thanks for asking it!

In my world Pelhams were only used on shitty ponies out hunting !

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7974803]
In my world Pelhams were only used on shitty ponies out hunting ![/QUOTE]

haha-yes-good brakes!

I remember reading HMs articles in the UK magazine The Horse for many years

She has always had this THING about the pelham- like it is her personal agenda.

I question anyone who gets too evangelical about any one bit especially when the bit is not approved for dressage (for a reason)

I am not anti-pelham in some circumstances - in fact used for one horse when I was a kid -but soon moved on to a regular snaffle when I learned to ride better.

I think it is a naked emperor thing.

JMO but think both HM and S Loch suffer from the same problem- talking (very well) but not walking the walk. Check out the videos and make up your own minds.

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7973940]
“The contact most people want” most of the time in capital “D” Dressage seems to be akin to water skiing on the poor horse’s bars. They take and TAKE and TAKE and never “give,” plus they never teach the true flexion of the jaw and poll. The origin of this is the lack of a seat sufficient to absorb the amplitude of many of these WB’s enormous, springy gaits. What looks nice in the video can be hell-on-wheels to sit for an older AA. That struggle is NOT fun.

There is a VAST difference between riding in self-carriage in COLLECTION and riding a braced, unbalanced horse in COMPRESSION, but with most of the sub-FEI level instruction available in the U.S. today you won’t ever BE “enlightened.” Which is one reason why many places “dressage” has become BO code for “entertaining and ego-stroking terrified overmounted old ladies who can’t jump.” :stuck_out_tongue:

To ride properly in anything BUT a snaffle, you need the following:

[B]An independent enough seat so you can use your HANDS independently (applies as much to hunt seat, saddle seat and western as it does here).

A horse who has been properly taught to yield to pressure (NOT bear against it!) upon his bars by relaxing the jaw and “chewing” the bit, and flexing at the poll.[/B]

Now, if you’ve got these two things, you can go out and do just about ANYTHING, in any tack or conditions, because the horse is not resisting your aids. In fact, properly trained and bitted in a Pelham or double he almost CAN’T resist in the way I see "D"ressage horses blowing through whichever set of aids is weaker–hanging on the forehand in that big fat snaffle or sucking back behind the ineffective leg. Which would be why foxhunters and every Cavalry on Earth used Pelhams and full bridles and The Snaffle was relegated to the racecourse–SO THEY COULD GO OUT AND GET SOMETHING DONE!

Back to our typical AA. The "D"ressage system that rules the ring today is very much a German one, predicated on the style and means suitable for riding the German WB. Only one problem; that method is often not tolerated by more sensitive breeds with a different balance and pain threshold. A nice comfortable “contact” for a Hanoverian might get you a flip over backwards on your QH or Andalusian.

“Enlightened” equitation is promo-speak for training in the French and Iberian tradition, MUCH older than the modern German style, which pre-supposes using an Iberian or TB type. This includes the American stock breeds and even things like a Saddlebred. ALL of these horses respond FAR better AS A RULE to “Legs without hands, hands without legs,” “separation and moderation of the aids” and “optimization of orders” rather than just taking a heavy, steady hold and letting him lay on it. Another difference is these breeds don’t generally have to go “long and low” for years before they can achieve self-carriage; Western horses get it done at age 3!

Now if any of the above is something new to you, FLY to Xenophon Press or Amazon and get a copy of Another Horsemanship or Racinet Explains Baucher.
Either could be subtitled, “Dressage for Real People Who Don’t Want To Die of Frustration.” :smiley:

Most French-school trainers, and that includes any clinicians still rumbling about who are graduates of the Cadre Noir, are happy to have you use any bit that WORKS. Yes, they’ll be rigorous about your horse being forward, round, and through in all the ways the Germans do, but they’re not dogmatic about bitting because they’re not subjecting themselves to USEF rules. Those rules are arbitrary–not laws of nature like gravity! “Winning a First Level Test” and “Training My Horse To Be Rideable For Life” are two different questions.
Figure out which one’s more important to you and proceed accordingly.

The difference in feel I could liken to the horse coming UP to the bit and holding it lightly, the way a dog might hold an egg in her mouth without breaking the shell. Another analogy might be riding the clutch at a red light, for those of you who relate to the stick-shift thread. :winkgrin: When the horse yields, YOU open your fingers without moving your hands. It is NOT a pulling with the arms and shoulders and that’s for sure.

Nothing magickal about a Snaffle, folks–and nothing heinous about a curb. All a matter of the education level of the hands holding the other end, and that’s the truth. :cool:[/QUOTE]

I think so. Just like any other tool, it can be used for good or bad depending on who is using it.

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7975963]
I think so. Just like any other tool, it can be used for good or bad depending on who is using it.[/QUOTE]

Including pellet guns?

SnicklefritzG:Get a pellet gun and ping him in the nuts if he does that again. I know one guy who did that to a horse who used to rear when you went in the stallion’s stall. It only took one time to cure the horse of that bad behavior.

Actually … spent my entire life hunting o three continents and had a rubber pelham in my box - could slip along on the snaffle rein, and use the curb when needed - back to a theory that less is more. After a long day hunting a keen horse pulling and banging on a horse’s bars, it is nice to know they can take hold firmly at speed without being bruised.

Amazed at you all who are dissing HM and SL… “not walking the walk”? really? Perhaps not competitive… but there are other things besides competition.

And regarding CH - he REPLIES on their posts, and I am pretty sure he IS friends - not just fb friends. They are often the ones supporting him and CD and V in the face of those … “classical” riders who find nothing correct AT ALL in competitive dressage.

And Carl is ambassador of Classical Riding Club (= Plus, wrote a foreword to one of Sylvia Loch’s books.

And Heather is great with seat training! And she is very down to Earth and also gives great advice. She never says that a pelham should be used in stead of snaffle. It should be used when snaffle has been used badly. Apparently, it helps the horse to relax it’s jaw. But she only advocates using it with TWO reins.

Steffen Peters has said that he will use the double bridle, when the horse isn’t soft enough in the mouth. I don’t see a huge difference there.

[QUOTE=Pembroke;7976565]
And Carl is ambassador of Classical Riding Club (= Plus, wrote a foreword to one of Sylvia Loch’s books.

.[/QUOTE]
Not sure that Carl H being friendly with SLoch or HMoffit translates to him supporting the pelham as the bit of choice in dressage (not hunting,etc ) which I thought was the topic here.

:eek:

Steffen Peters has said that he will use the double bridle, when the horse isn’t soft enough in the mouth. I don’t see a huge difference there.

but what does that have to do with the pelham as a great bit for dressage?

[QUOTE=Crockpot;7976578]

but what does that have to do with the pelham as a great bit for dressage?[/QUOTE]

Heather Moffet has never said that Pelham is a great bit for dressage :confused:

[QUOTE=Pembroke;7976653]
Heather Moffet has never said that Pelham is a great bit for dressage :confused:[/QUOTE]

HMM. I think so based on having read her articles over the years in The Horse (UK) mag, but if by chaNCE I am wrong, why then is it a topic on the dressage forum?:confused:

The OP seems to be questioning it as a dressage bit supported by HM’s site:

I’m really confused as to why the enlightened equitation folks are strong proponents of the pelhalm bit, yet it’s not legal for rated Dressage.

HM has never said that it’s a great bit for dressage. She advocates pelham for the horses who have ruined mouths. Totally different things. That’s why I brought in the Steffen Peters comparison. He uses the double bridle and HM uses the pelham, when a horse’s mouth is strong, he doesn’t want to relax, etc. When the horse has learned how to properly relax (again), it is advised that the horse goes back into a snaffle.

[QUOTE=Pembroke;7977208]
HM has never said that it’s a great bit for dressage. She advocates pelham for the horses who have ruined mouths. Totally different things. That’s why I brought in the Steffen Peters comparison. He uses the double bridle and HM uses the pelham, when a horse’s mouth is strong, he doesn’t want to relax, etc. When the horse has learned how to properly relax (again), it is advised that the horse goes back into a snaffle.[/QUOTE]

Then I guess I don’t understand which demographic the advice is meant for. Ruined mouths can be improved just fine in a snaffle. BTDT.

A rider who doesn’t have nice hands and doesn’t know how to ride with four reins shouldn’t use a pelham… it’ll only make things worse. A rider with good hands won’t need one anyway since the horse will be improved in a snaffle. I don’t think you can advocate the choices that Steffen Peters makes in a few specific cases to be used by the dressage masses. A first level horse with a ruined mouth should not be dropped into a double bridle.

A good dressage rider isn’t going to use a pelham. A bad one shouldn’t use anything but a snaffle.

Oh boy…I’m indeed “Freeing worms from cans everywhere

It’s interesting to read the different perspectives though I wish we could ask our horses. My little Morgan will gag on a thick snaffle bit, so I ride her in a thinner, more appropriate for her size, three-piece snaffle bit. I don’t know what she would think of a Pelhalm…but I’m too chicken to ride her with anything other than a snaffle, so it’s not something she will need to worry about.

Anyone who knows anything about HM knows that she is a firm believer that no one thing is right for all horses. She talks about the Pelham only because it is an often over looked tool.

She also still rides GP dressage w/videos aplenty, she just doesn’t show. Her most vocal cause hasn’t been the pelham, but rather the anti-RK campaign.

I personally love my pelham. Its a flexi rubber mouthpiece with medium shanks. I ride in it with double reins on my horses. my 2 horses i use it on both had saddle issues before i got them. I ride with the curb rein loose so that it only has pressure if the horse throws its head out. Because of the saddle issues sometimes when i put contact on they throw their heads to the sky, the pelham helps them drop their heads and realise theres no pain in their backs anymore. Used correctly they are great, when people ride them with just the curb they bring the pelham down.

Ancient thread. Usually on COTH we start a new thread rather than revive things from years ago.

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