EQUUS article on Tail Blocks and more....

[D_BaldStockings]

The saddest thing about the ‘releasing the tail/ back’ argument is that is paints a picture of our breed as being somehow LESS trainable than those breeds not requiring surgery to learn to wear a harness.

Now, is that really so? I’m afraid it reflects far more on the trainers who believe this than on a breed that is arguably one of the most trainable ever developed.

And if it was really only about releasing the tail/ back?

There would be no outcry against discarding of the artificial appliances and care to produce the extreme set tail effect for the show ring - because is not necessary to cut a tail to ‘set’ a tail, yet there IS outcry, since it is fashionably necessary to ‘set’ a tail in order to place well in the Breed Show Performance ring.

The show presentation of the horse needs to move beyond the 1940’s, just as riding attire fashion has changed.

A great mare
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6a/d0/19/6ad019daf1bbc958ad63ce96da008cc1.jpg

A great stallion
http://regaljada.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/historyofapparel4.jpg

[ASB_Stars]

@csaper58

I find the few Saddleseat folks left in the game way too eager to leap to their sport’s defense when no offence was offered. And like so many rushing to defense, they often shoot themselves [and their sport] in the foot when doing so.

This issue has held back any possibility for progress, for the breed. Those who were raised in the Saddle Seat tradition simply do not seem to get that they are a true minority in the horse showing world. So, when they poke their noses out, and the rest of the world says that what they are doing is unacceptable, they run back to Mama, where it is safe and cozy, and drink a little more Koolaid. However, their world is contracting at an alarming rate.

Donna’s comment about the author of the Equus article, a practicing veterinarian, needing to speak to a vet who practices on ASBs speaks volumes. A horse is a horse. Is the fact that one’s livelihood has become dependent upon accepting what the rest of the AAEP does not pivotal in the “ASB vets” opinion? Of course it is.

Some flavors of Koolaid are more addictive than others, apparently.

[D_BaldStockings]

Apparently, there is still interest in Saddle seat, and at least one breed - Arabians - will be appearing in New York Central Park at the Rolex opening this September.

https://www.arabianusopen.com/

Linking one type of tail presentation to Saddle seat is as damaging to perception of the discipline as linking the tail presentation to the breed (Saddlebred) is to that breed…

Just saying that an entire discipline should not be tarred with ‘the tail’ brush.

[Jackie_Cochran]

American Saddlebreds have made some progress since 1963 when I returned to the USA. I had read about them in Pers Crowell’s Cavalcade of American Horses, but I had never seen one in South America. Then, back here, there were the horrible set tails, the “parking” out, and the extremely horrible LONG hooves with the weights, etc… It was altogether a horrible picture to me, and then I discovered Arabians (WAY different back then.)

Nowadays I do not notice the LONG hooves on the show horses. This is progress!

From what I have read on here and other places on the web, I REALLY regret the fact that I never considered an ASB as a riding horse. The ASB show people have taken an extraordinary, athletic breed and has just decided to play in their own sandbox, and they are still mutilating the tails. I have a book from the late 1800’s with PLENTY of ASB photos, and with nary a set tail in sight. Beautiful horses, with well carried tails, if ASBs like THAT had been around, especially in the riding schools in northern Virginia, maybe the Arabians would not have impressed me as much. I have seen ASB horses that “float” at the trot as good as a pure Arab, and caper around a lot like an Arab will. But, alas, all I knew about the ASBs were the show horses, who I felt really sorry for.

I find this a great pity. We Americans developed a superior riding horse. Its development as a superior riding horse in the other English riding disciplines has been hobbled severely by the type of show classes for the breed, and what the owners have to do to the horses to have any hope of winning big. We really do not NEED to buy horses from Europe to get superior riding animals to the TB, we HAVE a superior saddle breed already. All the world would know this if it was not for the ASB shows. If the breeders would breed for suitability for jumping, 3-Day or dressage many people from other countries could be coming here to buy riding horses for competitions.

And I say this as a die hard Arabian fanatic. Arabians are never going to compete with Warmbloods in jumping or dressage. ASBs could.

And as long as the tails are mutilated the world will ignore them.

[ASB_Stars]

Thank you for your frank, and accurate assessment.

For the American Saddlebred, the alteration of their tail is literally killing a breed. We are registering fewer than 1400 individuals a year, and those are extinction numbers.

The horses are not getting the opportunity to prove to the horse buying public how fantastic they are for any discipline, because the public’s perception is based upon the show ring presentation. The major difference between these horses, and the others that these folks see? Tails, and feet.

:mad:

[D_BaldStockings]

Just for ‘fun’ I googled Saddlebred horse images.

If you figure 16 to a screen page, and horses actually being ridden or driven…
page 1 = 1 western horse
page 2 = 0
page 3 = 1 western horse
page 4 = 1 jumper
page 5 = 1 police horse
page 6 = 2 combined driving horses
page 7 = 1 combined driving horse
page 8 = 1 jumper, 1 western
page 9 = 1 dressage horse

or 6%. This is not helping promote the versatility of the breed.

I did not count the set tails or shoe packages, but roughly 70% or more.

And yes, it proves the stereotype is unfortunately a reality for anyone looking at the breed online.

[jvanrens]

@csaper58

In my area Saddleseat will be finished with the current generation of horses, so ‘grandfathering’ is a moot point here.

I find the few Saddleseat folks left in the game way too eager to leap to their sport’s defense when no offence was offered. And like so many rushing to defense, they often shoot themselves [and their sport] in the foot when doing so.

That’s really reason Saddleseat is dying here. While it used to be supported by the genteel crowed, there is now so much bickering, kvetching, haranguing, ranting, and frickin drama… people just steer clear.

I just checked to see if you were in my neck of the woods! If you’re not part of the old families that have been doing it forever you aren’t welcome, and to listen to them kvetch about their “friends” they had over for a BBQ and drinks the night before makes your head spin. New people are meant to make fun of and not help learn the ropes and maybe keep the whole show going for future generations, not at all welcoming and encouraging but you should hear the complaints when they lose a show day at a local fair to the western show that has expanded to such a size due to actual number of entries that the show actually make money for the fair instead of 3 entry classes (hmmm…40 horses paying entry fees per class or three ponies which would you give ring time to?). Sad to see it sink but some of these people are the authors of their own demise. The old timers who showed up to watch the saddlebreds and hackneys are sadly not showing up to watch anymore and the shows, entry wise are getting smaller.

[Jackie_Cochran]

While I am in no way an expert on the ASB, their ancestors come from a lot of the same European “root stock” as the WBs. There is not a lot of TB in the ASB, but, from reading Louis Taylor, the old time breeders were breeding a superior riding horse, as in superior to the TB and Arabian, and they managed this without giant infusions of TB or Arabian blood (I think there is a Barb infusion though.) In spite of not having heavy outcrossing with the TB, according to Louis Taylor there were plenty of ASBs in hunter and open jumpers classes decades ago who were passed off, successfully, as TBs (back then papers were not quite as important as nowadays for open classes in the shows.)

If by some miracle my MS disappeared and I wanted to compete in the jumping/hunter/dressage/3-Day fields, I’ve told my riding teacher I would be looking for a decently conformed ASB so I could get the biggest bang for my buck and have hopes of competing successfully. She does not disagree with me at all, after all as a kid she competed in open jumping on a half-ASB (back in the days where you had to jump from 4’ to 5’ and higher.)

As it is, I have ridden one ASB three gaited mare in my life, and under me she felt like some TBs and part TBs I’ve ridden. I would not mind at all if my riding teacher got an ASB dumped on her, I can’t do much in the saddle any more but I think I would have fun working with one.

[csaper58]

@Jackie Cochran

While I am in no way an expert on the ASB, their ancestors come from a lot of the same European “root stock” as the WBs. There is not a lot of TB in the ASB, but, from reading Louis Taylor, the old time breeders were breeding a superior riding horse, as in superior to the TB and Arabian, and they managed this without giant infusions of TB or Arabian blood (I think there is a Barb infusion though.) In spite of not having heavy outcrossing with the TB, according to Louis Taylor there were plenty of ASBs in hunter and open jumpers classes decades ago who were passed off, successfully, as TBs (back then papers were not quite as important as nowadays for open classes in the shows.)

If by some miracle my MS disappeared and I wanted to compete in the jumping/hunter/dressage/3-Day fields, I’ve told my riding teacher I would be looking for a decently conformed ASB so I could get the biggest bang for my buck and have hopes of competing successfully. She does not disagree with me at all, after all as a kid she competed in open jumping on a half-ASB (back in the days where you had to jump from 4’ to 5’ and higher.)

As it is, I have ridden one ASB three gaited mare in my life, and under me she felt like some TBs and part TBs I’ve ridden. I would not mind at all if my riding teacher got an ASB dumped on her, I can’t do much in the saddle any more but I think I would have fun working with one.

Bold is mine and the statement is a crock of crap.

https://www.asha.net/aboutus/theamer…/breedhistory/

http://www.paulcatesstable.com/histo…an-saddlebred/

The history of the ASB is very well documented. Their pedigrees and stud books can trace the breed to it’s origins in the colonies [ United States ] around the time of the American Revolution. Horses, many of them gaited or pacing breeds, on this continent were used to produce ASBs.

English and French Thoroughbreds, and Narragansett Pacers with latter additions of some Morgan blood all contributed to the creation of the ASB.

European WarmBloods not so much.

The Fine Harness ASBs have been bred for a similar purpose as the Dutch Harness Horse and produced a horse similar in body type. the Dutch have used ASBs to contribute to their breeding program, but not the other way around.

[Mondo]

“The horses are not getting the opportunity to prove to the horse buying public how fantastic they are for any discipline, because the public’s perception is based upon the show ring presentation.” So, so, true. I have two friends who each have a photo on the ASB exhibit at the Kentucky horse park. One of them trained her 3-gaited gelding to I-1 and was schooling GP when he died on the colic surgery table. She got her bronze and silver USDF medals on him. Great dressage horse. All the judges would ask her, “What is his breeding?” They were always shocked when she said ASB.

Another friend has a gorgeous picture of herself on her Saddlebred mare midway over a 3’6" fence at an international H/J show.

I’ve shown them in dressage and hunters (long time ago). They really are a superior saddle horse. Intelligent, eminently trainable, and beautiful to watch. It’s a shame what the gaited horse/saddleseat industry has done to the breed.

[BookWorm]

This thread is an interesting read for me, as a saddle seat person. Personally, I hope that the stacked shoes and set tails go to the roadside sooner rather than later - it’s unnecessary surgeries for the sake of the “look” don’t sit well with me, and I’m actually not a fan of the high set tails to begin with. But I would be sad if the discipline of saddle seat as a whole vanished. It’s fun to watch a class of gaited horses sailing around the ring at a full rack, and it’s fun to ride a show ASB going at a full trot. ASBs can definitely do well in dressage/hunters/etc., and it would be great to see them in more disciplines…but surely there’s also room to improve practices in the breed specific shows and keep saddle seat as a division.

[D_BaldStockings]

I like Saddle seat as a discipline and would hate to see it vanish. I would however, like to change the fashion away from the extreme look for the tails. Lose what isn’t working/ working against several breeds and the discipline.

Keep the tradition of 5 gaits, the tradition of great in-born action, the tradition of uphill balance and agility, the tradition of an incredibly trainable horse that is also spectacular.

Note on google if you add Saddlebred Dressage (or Jumper or Eventer / Eventing - but not Event) you will get lots of great images and some video if you like.

I was simply picking the generic Saddlebred to show how overwhelmingly set-tailed the public image seems to appear.

[csaper58]

And lets not forget what wonderful trail horses American Saddlebreds are. Sure-footed, fearless, and clever. Many would love to shed their show shoes and go for a walk in the woods.