Turn out for the event was good this year in terms of entries. No spectators were permitted and people were asked to limit who came the event because of Covid.
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ācall a spade is a spadeā was a racial slur??? Had no idea that I would be offending someone. I have never heard it used as a racial slur.
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Well, it turns out itās not, but to call a black person a spade definitely is.
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With that particular bunch, it would have been the barn owner tossing out the bigots.
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This. TIMES 1000
The word bitch can also be an offensive term. But it also has a correct usageā¦ I have a friend who is a dog breeder and trainer (for dogs that go on to do certified search and rescue work). All breeding female dogs he owns are called bitches. There is nothing pejorative about it.
The word plantation only has origins that make some people think back to slavery. But it actually is not commonly considered a slur at this time.
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Weāve removed some further debate re: specifics of the fatal car accident referenced earlier in the thread as it has minimal bearing on the discussion at the heart of this issue. Without minimizing the impact the accident had on others, letās appreciate that Ms. Bateman has stated she has had suicidal thoughts and attempts, and she is dealing with the recent loss of one parent and critical injury of the other in another motor vehicle accident.
There are plenty of big issues to unpack and discuss related to Plantation Field without bringing in only very tangentially related personal commentary regarding individuals involved.
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So not only do you need a landowner, but a progressive one?
How are venues not inclusive? Were peopleās entries tossed because they were minorities?
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agreed on multiple millions. I kept my claims in my original comment measured, as I get the sense that some folks who are convinced that another venue will come along to replace this one are not entirely knowledgeable or experienced when it comes to the process and construction expenses involved in building an equestrian related facility from nothing on raw acreage.
Studies, site plans, land disturbance permits, grading, and then putting in the initial driveway? Yeahā¦ for a venue this huge intended to host competition like this? Thatās going to be EXPENSIVE. To satisfy all the requirements in a county like Chester County with respect to local ordinances, etc? LOL! You have to hire a high end professional firm to represent every single detail of this project to the county in order to just get your site plan approved. Period. And for a driveway to access a venue where horse trailers will go in and out en masse? Expect the local department of transportation to require traffic studies, and possibly even some sort of proffer of some kind, as they will want to āmitigateāĀ the impact of all this traffic on the surrounding community who travel these local roads.
Someone would quite likely have to spend over a million to just to get a site plan and driveway permitted and the base of the driveway in, for a venue like this, in this location, in this county. Even if they had the raw land already.
Then the REAL fun with grading and drainage begins.
People have no clue right now as to what exactly was just pissed away. Because many of the people lecturing others on vocabulary and feelings CLEARLY have never built or owned a farm, much less a small competition venueā¦ and donāt have even the beginning of a clue as to how much vision, work, and money went into creating something like Plantation Field.
And call me crazy, but perhaps thatās why the guy who was the major person who developed this venue over the course of twenty years, as well as the land ownerā¦ wellā¦ perhaps thatās part of why those two people are pretty darn offended that some of you folks think you can come right on in now and tell them what the venue should or should not be named.
Everyone is a critic these days. We all have opinions, they are ubiquitous. How many of you folks are creators though? How many of you who are criticizing the name of this venue, have built something like this from scratch?
You should have a small amount of respect for the people who did, I think, if you wish to engage in a discussion with them about changing the name of that venue. It doesnāt matter if they are an elderly jerk who dressed you down in e-mail. Sure itās rude. But the guy is 79, and that was a very predictable email response from him to this topic. It that didnāt require a psychic to guess that this whole controversy over the name might irritate the heck out of him.
If you want to be effective at achieving a certain outcome, then you have to approach a guy like that a certain way.
Thatās how things work in the real world.
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Exactly. I will admit. Slavery is not the first thought to me with the word Plantation. I understand it is for others and my reaction to that is it is about your own knowledge base and perhaps that needs to be expanded (by everyone). It is not an immediate association with slavery for me because of my education (I was taught that slave labor worked a lot of things besides just plantations throughout history and ethnicitiesā¦mankind in general is pretty terrible to others) and the fact that my Great Great Grandfather (before my time), my Great Grandfather (who I knew and remember) and my Grandfather (who I knew and remember) worked on and for sugarcane and pineapple plantations. So the word brings up thoughts of the large farms with huge fields of sugarcane and reminds me of them and the work they did. (Note I did not say owned plantationsā¦but worked on themā-my GGGrandfather started as an indentured/ contract worker.)
I will not deny that it means different things to different peopleā¦and that should be discussed as should diversity and racism. But I absolutely HATE that what should have been a discussion devolved into such divisiveness by all involved.
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Weāre closing this thread for the time being while we evaluate a situation related to the thread.
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Thanks for your patience as we took this discussion offline last night for review. Youāre welcome to continue the discussion on the loss of this venue and the issues that contributed to it. Please be mindful of keeping the thread focused on the issues at hand and avoiding personal commentary about individuals involved.
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Should take guesses on who sicced the lawyers on COTH? :winkgrin::lol:
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This is such a curious statement I have to inquire:
Has the landowner been refusing to admit people based on race, sex, disability, or other protected status? Because as far as I know, he and the entire family have stellar reputations and heās opened up that land freely, to one and all, for decades. Without one whisper or hint of inappropriate conduct.
Quite the opposite - until the false accusation made by EN and the ājournalistsā attempt at extortion.
So your comment doesnāt seem valid. Actually, I think itās discriminatory. You will only participate in an event if the landowner passes some sort of what - investigation?
Iām rather disturbed that landowners are now supposed to pass a litmus test before eventers will condescend to trash our land.
After reading all these comments - I think the consensus in the eventing community is:
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You want landowners to assume the liability, costs of engineering, grading, drainage parking, permitting, insurance, and repairs.
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You want us to hold whatever event you want, at any level you want, and if you encounter a muddy or soft spot, the landowner will get raked over the coals for not providing perfecting footing. (which of course, the landowner has to pay for)
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The landowner will have to beg for volunteers, because they canāt do it by themselves but are expected to have everything perfect.
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If you donāt like something about the land weāve opened up to you, or you donāt like our skin color, religion, political leanings, or any other personal attribute, you feel it is appropriate to attack us personally, attempt to destroy our personal and professional reputations through the media, send threatening letters, or do whatever you want, to whoever you want, without regard for the landowners feelings, reputation, or sacrifice. (after all - the landowner isnāt a human being he/she is just a landowner and therefore not entitled to be treated with any dignity or respect)
Howā¦ inclusive. Where do I sign up for that.
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Iāve lodged my guess via pm :lol:
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In other newsā¦
EN has reported on Morven Park extensively. Both Maggie Deatrick and Sally Spickard have written reports on it. Boydās in 2nd in both of the Advanced divisions, and they have reported on his horses and scores as part of their coverage. But he doesnāt seem to have provided any quotes they could use. Other riders have.
The coverage is very sporting news focused this timeā¦ not a matter of editorializing. None of the photography they used on their site shows the mansion in the background, but they do link to the Morven Park International Equestrian Center FB page in one of their reportsā¦ and the cover photo on that page is of the plantation mansion, with a horse on course in the foreground.
One FB commenter took note of the crickets with respect to Morvenās history, etc, and said the following:
āĀWow, I think I missed your whole piece on Morven Park and how itās TOTALLY OK to be competing on a former slave plantation. Could you please tag that for the less-than-woke of us?āĀ
Boydās Facebook page is sharing photos from the Morven course, and he does not seem burdened by sensitivity concerns with respect to the mansion appearing in the background of any images. He seems more focused on sport. And the dog jump IS really cool. Curiously enough, he did actually share the EN report Sally Spickard wrote about results up until this point on his own Facebook account. So it appears there is a truce, to a certain extent, between some folks involved in all this.
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If I had to guess, they are not addressing Morven Park because 1) you donāt think āslaveryā when you see the word Morven or Park so itās not as big of a āwow thatās anā¦interesting nameā when you see it in headlines or somewhere online; 2) you canāt exactly change the history of a place like you can the name, not sure why that isnāt making sense to people; and 3) maybe they are thinking of ways to address it and taking their time to do it right now. Which you would think would be a good thing, learning from mistakes and such.
If you are actually concerned and want them to do something about Morven Park, Iād suggest reaching out to them, or USEA, or the owners, about potential ways to address the history of the place. But trying to use it as āproofā they were stupid for trying to change Plantation doesnāt work. You canāt try to change everything at once.
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With respect to point 2ā¦ there is no history of slavery at Plantation Field. NONE. So there is no need to change or ignore history.
Why is it preferable to do something shallow and easy, like change a nameā¦ but at the same time ignore actual history?
That seems kinda silly to me. If someone genuinely cares about the legacy of slavery in our country, and wishes to get sensitive and respectful about that part of our national historyā¦ then shouldnāt they actually REMEMBER the history, and not pretend it doesnāt exist?
I meanā¦ if itās insensitive and wrong to walk around in the public square as though you donāt notice anything, when there is a huge statue of a Confederate General there for everyone to see, why is it ok to gallop around Morven Park, while pretending not to notice that itās an actual plantation?
It seems like that is a very inconsistent position for someone to take if they choose to claim they are a moral authority on the issue of sensitivity towards BIPOC.
With respect to point 3ā¦ there IS a way to address the challenges posed by Morven Parkās history. Embrace knowledge and education. Others have mentioned it, but there is a museum on site. People have gotten free passes to the museum in the past as part of their entry. They can take the time to learn about Morven, read about what happened there, and truly contemplate it all. They can also choose to compete there if they wish.
Personallyā¦ I think thatās great. I can understand if others think itās horrific and insensitive to compete at that venue. I can absolutely understand if BIPOC who are affiliated with eventing CRINGE about that venue. But, itās also possible others who are deeply sensitive DONāT. And that they appreciate the fact that there is a museum on site, and hope that their fellow competitors take time to be more educated.
In shortā¦ I think Morven Park, and the way it is being approached as a venue allows everyone in the eventing community to make a choice that works for them about it. Skip attending that venue, or choose to attend it and learn more about history in the process.
When it came to Plantation Field, some people in authority with USEF/USEA, along with certain folks at EN decided the rest of us couldnāt handle thinking through the name of the venue, and making personal choices about it all. There was a fear that the name was too much of a trigger for some BIPOC to handle emotionally, and thus should be changed. I think that is a bit disrespectful when it comes to the intellectual and emotional capacity and resilience of BIPOC who are connected with our sportā¦ and was a silly and poorly thought out position to take on the name. An argument was ALSO clearly stated in now deleted emails that were shared on this thread, that some people were worried about negative publicity for eventing i general, because of the name of Plantation Field. The earlier awkward headline about Maya Black winning at that venue was raised as an e ample of how random people who were incapable of reading carefully and thinking critically, might continue to assume that Plantation Field had some sort of racist history going forwardā¦ and thus the whole sport would be tarnished by this misperception.
I can understand that train of thoughtā¦ but againā¦ I think it reflects a certain amount of arrogance and disrespect on the part of some people towards the general public. To meā¦ it seems like some folks assume everyone else is too stupid to read about history and handle the truth behind the name āPlantation FieldāĀ and thus, they thought the name should be changed for the dumb dumbs amongst us, so that folks didnāt get confused about history accidentally.
Personallyā¦ Iām on the side of museum passes, and not name changes. If there are a bunch dumb dumbs out there in the eventing community, who canāt be bothered to read even a small blurb in a program about the history of a venueā¦ that is their problem. Hopefully they will redouble their efforts at reading. I do not think it makes sense to insult a major donor and land owner though, just because we are worried some people will get confused by words and leap to an incorrect assumption about history.
I hope this perspective makes sense to you. Not trying to argueā¦ just trying to push you to think about the issue from an alternative angle.
Change is hard, according to John Thier. Wellā¦ I think comprehensive education about the history of different places is an important part of meaningful change. I donāt understand why we would skip that. Change which ignores history is not meaningful. Itās disingenuous (probably unintentionally soā¦ but disingenuous nonetheless) in my opinion.
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Destruction is easier than education.
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Thatās part of it, for sure. But there is another perspective to consider as wellā¦
āĀWho controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.āĀ
Given thatā¦ my answer to buried history and gaps in our understandingā¦ is more history. More education. Not tearing down of statues, or suppressing references to complicated national struggles, and oversimplifying our history and eliminating parts of it altogether, because some folks in power have decided that the rest of us canāt handle thinking through it all in a deep, complicated, nuanced way.
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The answer should always be more education, more knowledge, more nuance.
But thatās hard.
I know why they do what they do, and itās easy, because knowledge and understanding are hard, soundbites and bumper stickers are easy.
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