I want to say I have no connection with the place…I’ve never been to Pennsylvania!
But, look up ‘fighting words’ and ‘innocent until proven guilty’. Right now, your repeated insinuations suggest ‘fighting words’ and on principle that annoys me. I’m sure it shouldn’t, as Glaccum and Walker have far better defenders than somebody who will happily admit they are wrong, if somebody actually comes up with evidence.
Do I have 100% confidence they are not racist? No. I don’t know them. But so far, nothing has been dug up that suggests that they are racist, except of course they really unfortunate name of ‘Plantation’ and…the fact that they are wealthy, white, males who vote Republican and support he who shall not be named. And apparently have made some stupid Facebook comments or have friends that have made stupid Facebook comments. The worst I can find on Walker is that for ‘personal reasons’ he withdrew from a political campaign in 2014 later than is socially acceptable and the opposing party had a snit about that.
I am happy to be proved wrong, I’ll even publicly admit it!
No I am thinking about the 30’s, not the present day. I could see being 90% sure, but the 100%, I just can’t see. Sorry if I seem belligerent, that is not my intent.
"In the 1920s, the Ku Klux Klan also appealed to some women because it embraced progressive politics, supported women’s suffrage and educational reform, and punished adulterous husbands and the women with whom they cheated. Outdoor excursions and picnics were much more profitable and well attended by men when attended by members of the women’s auxiliaries.
It was not long before the women’s chapters became embroiled in fights with the men’s organization over money and morals. They were outraged when the Klan reprimanded two of their sisters for fornication while their seducer went unpunished. Early in 1927, the Philadelphia and Chester County women’s klaverns broke away from the national organization. Outraged at Atlanta’s support of Winter and his ongoing suppression of dissent, Philadelphia’s male klavÂerns followed them out.
In 1928, four former members sued the Klan in federal court in Pittsburgh, demanding to know what had happened to fifteen to twenty million dollars the organization had raised in Pennsylvania. This scandal was the last straw. By 1930, less than five thousand members remained in Pennsylvania, the majority of them in the eastern half of the state."
I suspect that if prominent or wealthy residents of Chester County were members of the Klan it would have been revealed years ago. Which doesn’t mean they would be comfortable with life today if they suddenly appeared in our midst. Or unhappy. We simply don’t know and it doesn’t matter. The name was selected in 1998/1999 and the reason given hasn’t changed since at least 2009, if not earlier.
Anyway, EN failed in its quest to get the name changed. Isn’t Live Oak International held at Live Oak Plantation, where slavery was practiced? If so, why does it get a pass?
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Oh there also seems to have been a nasty divorce in 2014, a timing that aligns with the ‘personal reasons’ and wow did the opposition drag him into the mud: https://coatesvilledems.blogspot.com/2014/10/is-chester-county-true-detective.html?m=1
That is a bit of impressive writing there, all fire no substance, and the classic WASP gossip chain (full disclosure, I’m a WASP!). But nothing that aligns with what shows up with his profiles on LinkedIn, other news articles, or really anything at all.
And now I seem to be all stalkerish, so I’ll apologize to the moderators who really should slap me upside the head? And go to bed!
I am looking at a map and the venue is a lot closer to Unionville than Coatesville. Coatesville certainly does sprawl!
So are folks advocating now that going forward, we run a background check, including genealogy, on landowners of prospective event venues?
Some folks are advocating this. They seem to think this will help grow the sport :rolleyes: Ir something like that… :sigh:
I personally don’t think there was any ill intent behind the name initially. Insensitive? Yes. Racist? No. I think it’s very reasonable that most white people just didn’t associate the name “plantation” with slavery. Nobody is “racist” for not putting that together. You can only act off what you know. I don’t think anyone here or in EN’s correspondence ever said that it was. (Correct me if I’m wrong here.)
Obviously it was received that way and that’s how things went south. I know popular opinion is that it was received that way because of Leslie’s abrasiveness, which is fair but I would argue white fragility also played a role on the land owner/ organizer’s part.
My biggest problem here is that there are a handful of comments in this thread with a concerning number of “likes” that are examples of “covert racism.” Covert racism isn’t obvious and usually the person engaging in it doesn’t realize that’s what it is, but it’s still wrong and has no place in the world. I’ll be the first to say I’m sure I’ve definitely been guilty of covert racism in the past myself. We need to be able to identify it and point it out because that’s the only way it stops.
Covert racism or overt racism, it disappoints me that there is more outrage at people pointing out racist behavior than there is for actual racist behavior.
Or… maybe hard truths are just not as palatable.
Excellent! 😆 Time to say goodbye to just about any European event hosted next to let’s say a big house or a castle…
I cannot wait to read the piece in EN on why they are boycotting the eventual European Championships at Le Pin next year, the Olympics in Paris 2024 (if we ever get to see those) plus some other small yearly events such as Burghley and Blenheim to name a few 😂😂😂
Or maybe it is remarkable that they went after Plantation Field where there was no slave labor used and no known connection to slavery rather than focusing on Live Oak Plantation, site of Live Oak International, which was farmed by slaves.
Meanwhile their editorial board is all White, they apparently neither bank nor invest with Black-owned businesses, their point person was abrasive and had used a defense that would have gotten a non-White laughed straight into jail (so bad choice on their part - maybe they should have asked one of their Black employees who are not on their masthead to take the lead to lend credibility), they had to be told not to show up rather than taking a principled stand and boycotting the offensively-named event, they utterly failed in their goal and they succeeded in getting USEA, USEF and eventers kicked off the land. I don’t see any of this as praiseworthy.
”‹”‹”‹”‹USEA and USEF deserve scorn too because they also bungled it badly. If there was any communication asking or telling EN, Mr. Thier and Ms. Wylie to please back off and let them continue discussions and negotiations I am not aware of them.
”‹”‹Incompetence and failure are not worth lauding. Nobody celebrates Operation Tiger, for example. It was such a failure it was kept secret for 40 years.
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The ultimate winner is Mr. Walker who no longer has to deal with the demands of eventers, placating neighbors several times a year or be involved with year-round fundraising any longer. Maybe the Chester County Food Bank will once again get much larger donations now that he won’t be putting it into trying to make eventers happy. Possibly other local groups too.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹What is happening here is more like people reading victim-impact statements. Some will defend the process and outcome. Others won’t. At least one person in the midst of this is quite familiar with them but in 2020 has the luxury of ignoring those that don’t defend the actions and decisions that led to giving USEA the boot.
Read the comments to the Unionville Times article linked in the blog entry you posted for some of the “substance” you seek. It wasn’t “the opposition” dragging him - you just jumped to that conclusion. The reporter is very clear that members of Walker’s own party reached out to him. The Democrats quoted in the article are reacting to the news. The reporter did not first get the tip from “the opposition.” And the reporter is openly well disposed towards and complimentary of Walker. He’s just reporting news. Assuming it was a partisan dragging through the mud without doing the 5 minutes of research it took me (using your own link) to learn more says a lot about the bias in this thread. Do you even know if the gossipy blogger is part of “the opposition?” NB: people on the same side of the aisle can intensely dislike each other even if they vote the same.
And the issue wasn’t that he withdrew after it was “socially acceptable,” a phrase that is meaningless in the context of election law. There were serious and substantive issues with the timing of his withdrawal and replacement and BOTH parties were rightfully concerned. It was done after the deadline for withdrawal and there were issues with his replacement with Republicans themselves not all agreeing that Ross was the correct candidate to be slotted in if such a late substitution were to be allowed.
Finally, it wasn’t just a “nasty divorce.” There was a criminal investigation in connection with this incident, along with stepping down/being asked to step down, from various local boards and positions. Locals and members of the Philadelphia legal community can tell you about it, though some fear retribution from the very well-connected subject of the investigation even if only stating the facts.
All noted to illustrate the willingness in this thread to bend over backwards so as to make some of the parties involved here not look bad, to assume the best, to extend all possible manner of excuse. Simultaneously, there’s the tendency to assume the worst of EN, and to run dissenters off this thread, going as far as to low-key dox both Leslie and Equkelly, digging up old articles and even stalking to other internet communities and dragging things back here. Wildly lopsided treatment like that is not a great look. That’s not nuanced, or learned, or academically rigorous, or productive, or value added at all.
None of this speaks to the name/name change. It only highlights the unequal treatment of the two sides in this debate and posters who don’t agree with the majority.
Many of the posts here are not going to age well and I’m shocked some of the stuff that’s been written has remained un-edited, by the posters or the Mods. I’d not want this particular “paper trail” reflecting on my business if I were among the PTB at COTH.
So how are events from 2014 germane to one party (LO) when events from 2012/2013 aren’t equally valid regarding the other party (LW)?
Either both are indicative of their characters or neither matter. I only know that Walker dropped out in 2014. I don’t know what he did or didn’t do then or earlier. Was it related to racism? Was he charged? Found guilty? Pled guilty? Presumably the state was involved in the election mess. No idea what happened at the school but if he should have been charged with a crime they should have pursued it and held him accountable for his actions. In this instance, what are his actions that caused direct harm?
I don’t know him. But I return to EN addressing Plantation Field rather than Live Oak. Why didn’t they take umbrage with Live Oak where slavery was real and went on for 40+ years?
Stop using logic and reason. People hate that.
Alright, I will admit, I was a little overboard last night. Is dropping out of a race in 2014 after the legal time limit a matter greater than a ‘snit’ as I said? Yes, so I will reframe my statement:
The worst I can find on Walker is that he dropped out of a political race in an illegal fashion that may have helped his replacement candidate and caused division in his own party. The second worse thing is a divorce at the same time that had a criminal investigation involved, though I with my poor Google-Fu can’t find any actual court rulings on actual charges filed. Thirdly, at the same time he resigned from some, but not all boards he was on. Like it or not, that is all pretty standard for many, many politicians in this country from the lowest to the highest levels. Not a good thing, but a realistic assessment.
The rest seems to be rumors…“talk to so and so, if you can find them, but they won’t talk publicly”. Which is what the piece I linked to is a prime example of and why I linked to it. Which, AND THIS IS A GOOD THING, in 2020 does not hold much weight with me, we have a press and legal system that is very open to investigating people in power. And, I suspect that had there been anything of substance to the 2014 someone would have actually said something by now.
What I can’t find is anything to suggest the racist label that is so freely being applied on this thread. What I can find is a landowner who has good reason to want to avoid another round of hostile press, which was what came to his door and closed the event. And that is telling and explains a great to me about his reaction. Do I necessarily think it was the best thing? No. But I can certainly understand it.
And, not that is my business, did he and his wife divorce? Sometimes people reconcile before it is finalized for reasons of their own.
What does the term “dog whistle” mean when used in the context of this thread? I am not up on the current hip terms, clearly.
My understanding from reading posts in this thread - the word plantation as part of the name meant the landowner is welcoming of racists, White terrorists and wishes to discourage non-Whites from competing at the venue. Also, it puts LO and his life under a microscope, as well as the EO, thus giving EN a break from having their own actions and histories scrutinized.
Personally, I would have changed the name or chosen a different one but I also never would have made my land available to a fickle demanding group like USEA, even if I had sufficient land to be of interest to them. And enough money to cater to their whims.
In this thread the dog whistle would be the word plantation. Because it has more than one meaning and some people feel that one of those meanings celebrates the confederacy.
Others are saying that there is absolutely 100% no chance that the word refers to that. And to support that they are bringing up the proud history that this area has in regards to abolishi onists in the 1850’s.
To view that history from the present you have to leap over the KKK activity in the county in the 1920’s, and the lynching of Zachariah Walker in Coatesville in 1911.
I cannot see the 100% certainty, 95% maybe? would be reasonable. But I cannot get to 100%.
The problem with the 100% certainty is that there can be no concession that there is a slim chance that the word had the Lost Cause element, and people with even small shadows of doubts have to be portrayed as uneducated wild eyed nutters.
When it would be so much easier to say “yeah that could be true, but it probably isn’t.” Then you can acknowledge the possibility, and move on.
