Eventing's Biggest Enemy?

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=Janet;8945144]
I am not sure I understand how Rider/Horse/Amateur/Open costs any more than A/B/C/D.[/QUOTE]

This. Splitting entries into more divisions with fewer competitors in each one will be a bit more expensive as far as buying ribbons, but the actual cost of running the event is the same whether there is one Training division with 60 horses or its split into Open/Horse/Jr Rider/Sr Rider with 12-20 entries each.

If each of those divisions has $500 in prize money, however (which isn’t really all that much … only first place will make their entry back), it’s a lot more expensive than an extra $100 per level for more ribbons.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8943021]

I have no idea who you. And I am not going to try to find out.[/QUOTE]

You are missing out because JER is a super cool, very welcoming and nice lady

alittegray - you make a good point about experience but in eventing there is more to experience than just riding at a certain level.

I will use myself for example…I may not have ridden at Rolex but I have ridden to Intermediate. I have also lived, worked, and evented in the UK and Ireland, Canada and the US. I have trained under instructors who are dressage judges at Badminton and Olympic medalists. I have done the working student thing. I have built my own xc courses and ran shows. I have volunteered. I have groomed. I have gone to countless seminars on course building, rider fear, competition strengthening etc. I was in Pony Club for 15 years. I have coached teens at their first event. I have had my horse used at a major International Competition.

Would you consider my opinion less than someone who has only competed their entire life but has ridden at the 4* level? If so, why?

[ACountingRider]

Thanks WindingDown, I agree to your point. But, and I wasn’t a marketing major but took several classes on studying how people make decisions. I hate to say people aren’t as smart as we give them credit for. But I believe if you pinpoint different target markets, you can expose material to them that would make them believe that what they are going to is in fact worth their while.

My theory isn’t that it’s going to over-night happen or would even become as popular as overseas. There’s this incredible video of a woman posed at a doctors office, approximately every 45 seconds she stands up and sits down. After minute 3 two or three others begin doing the same thing. Then everyone in the waiting room. She leaves, and at one point there is only one person in the office who continues standing and sitting by himself. You’re sitting there wondering why he continues to do this, but he believes from watching others that this is what he’s supposed to do.

Ok, I don’t want to trick people into thinking the log at fence 3 on BN is exhilarating to watch. I just want to open the door that this" Rated event in which riders train for hours for a brief reward at the end," it’s satisfying to be there.

[redalter]

This!!!

[QUOTE=JP60;8942023]
Of course you would. As I recall, 80-85% of USEA members are Training level and below. We could do an analysis on the ratio of declared professional to amateur. When you are dealing with a large pool, you will see a larger cross section of behavior. Even in the list of professionals, many of them may be making money as Trainers for mainly lower level students, riding/conditioning horses on the side or the myriad of ways to get labeled professional.

That is not the main point.

Professional athletes may not like this thought, but once they choose to be in the public eye, then they should realize that as a public figure, their actions will carry more weight, inspire or deflate more than the likes of JP60 and his trusty and dapper steed. This is partially why some little known pro slaps her horse and doesn’t get a mention and ML farts funny and it is all over the social media. Professional Jockeys, and I did not coin that, are changing this sport. I am not concerned on character, most of them are good people, but they bring to the sport a way that reduces the heart of this sport. It’s a way that creates a ML, that almost imperceptibly begins to place the horse that slight one step back. It is an attitude that says “let’s make it more technical to please spectators, to really scare riders” and so we see skinny after skinny, corner after corner, open square oxers, flat tables. We fix things with pins instead of asking, is this too much? Please the owner, please the sponsors, please the organizers, please even the riders, but in all that glad handing, what happens to the horse.

I’m not talking about money so much as it relates to personal behavior, though it’s a factor. I am saying that Money is taking this sport away from it’s heart and professional riders, needing to make money are along for the ride.[/QUOTE]
]

Bold mine. I cannot agree with this more! It has been a slow slippery slope with this attitude.

Though it happens in other horse sports, the element of danger inherent in eventing makes the consequences of this approach so damaging.

I do see this - not with all pros, not just with the big names, but the middle names, and the locals. Particularly when, for all outward appearances, the sport seems to be celebrating someone like ML. It, on a broader level can mean, well, that’s okay, so this should be fine.

ML is the lowest common denominator in eventing horsemanship on the public stage.
There are those who may walk the line and see that not only was this acceptable or just sort of fluffed of, but she is a “star” in the sport.

Obviously that is not what happened to those in the know, and of course the GJ has all those “legitimate” excuses, but the perception of the masses often becomes the reality.
And that reality seeps through our sport, and on and on.

[JER]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8945276]
You are missing out because JER is a super cool, very welcoming and nice lady :)[/QUOTE]

I’ve been called many things online. But this is the first time I’ve ever been called a ‘lady’, online or otherwise.

[vineyridge]

There was an article in this week’s COTH about last week’s Virginia Horse Trials, and there was this quote from PD about a new horse that he was riding and won the CIC** with.

“I think he’s going to be strong in all three phases,” said Dutton. "He’s a fraction tense in the dressage, so I think there are a lot more marks there once I can get him to relax. I didn’t have a lot of time over the weekend because I rode a lot of horses, so I wished I’d had a bit more time to pre-ride. There will be a lot better dressage there. He show jumped spectacularly. I was impressed there.

If the horse can’t relax in dressage yet and PD didn’t have the time to work with him properly before going into the sandbox, why is this horse competing?

[EventerAJ]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8946389]
There was an article in this week’s COTH about last week’s Virginia Horse Trials, and there was this quote from PD about a new horse that he was riding and won the CIC** with.

If the horse can’t relax in dressage yet and PD didn’t have the time to work with him properly before going into the sandbox, why is this horse competing?[/QUOTE]

I understand your ultimate point: perhaps we should draw a line to recognize that riding too many horses will sacrifice the success (and possibly safety?) of the horse and rider. I don’t disagree: it’s not fair to short-change one horse of his best performance because you have too many others to compete.

However I don’t know that this is a useful illustration. “Why is this horse competing?” The horse won, despite being tense in the dressage, so it’s hard to say it didn’t belong there. A horse can be a little tense in the test, and still be obedient, well-schooled and safe XC. Riding many horses means that warmup time is limited, and some horses don’t get enough to be at their competitive best. (I’m sure many of us have sat on a horse that we wished we had 10 more minutes with our horse on a certain day.) Phillip, like many other riders, probably likes to ride the horse once before dressage to help the horse settle; with so many horses, he may not have been able to do that (“pre-ride”). Just a guess.

One time in my life, I rode 3 of my horses at an unrecognized one-day event (starter, BN, and Training). Holy heck, it was insane, and just a glimpse of what the “big dogs” do. My first horse had plenty of warmup (but was still green, tense, at her first show), and the last two could have used a bit more time to be relaxed and settled, but because of 9 rides in one day, 15-20 minutes was all they got. I was literally off one, swap tack, on the next. It made me appreciate just how well schooled, and how well-prepared, Buck’s (and others’) horses are. They are successful in dressage within the short, imposed time limits. Some of them get lunged in side reins back at the trailer, but they all are able to focus and deliver a darn good test with minimal warm up. My horses, not so much… taught me I need to do MUCH MORE preparation if I ever try to attempt that insanity again! (FTR, each of my horses had great jumping rounds and had a positive, confidence building experience, so it was certainly not a disaster.)

[Highflyer]

Because sometimes you compete a horse to give it experience even though you know it won’t win the dressage yet (or ever)? You can’t really replicate the competition experience at home.

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8946389]
There was an article in this week’s COTH about last week’s Virginia Horse Trials, and there was this quote from PD about a new horse that he was riding and won the CIC** with.

If the horse can’t relax in dressage yet and PD didn’t have the time to work with him properly before going into the sandbox, why is this horse competing?[/QUOTE]

I think you’re taking his words a bit out of context. The horse won … I’m not sure what his dressage score was, but it can’t have been bad. There’s a difference between a horse that’s obedient but a bit tense and has the potential to score better when he’s more relaxed, and one that is a bundle of nerves having a meltdown.

I’m all for holding upper level riders to a high standard of horsemanship, but having a dressage test that isn’t quite your best because the warmup was a bit rushed isn’t something I’m willing to call anyone out for … and is a far cry from bleeding mouths and horses being “beaten.”

[kcmel]

Well then, clearly we need to change the rules so an ULRs assistant/WS can warm up the horse, allowing the ULRs to ride even more horses. Why has no one thought of this?!!! (note sarcasm here).

[FitToBeTied]

According to EN a proposal was submitted to the FEI BUreau:

The FEI Bureau was presented with the Eventing Committee proposal to set WEG cross country at the same level as for the Olympics to ensure that all athletes and horses qualify at the same level as the Championship.

So being connected to the Olympics could possibly cost Eventing another piece of its soul. To me this is more important than whether you have 3 riders or 4.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;8946708]
According to EN a proposal was submitted to the FEI BUreau:

The FEI Bureau was presented with the Eventing Committee proposal to set WEG cross country at the same level as for the Olympics to ensure that all athletes and horses qualify at the same level as the Championship.

So being connected to the Olympics could possibly cost Eventing another piece of its soul. To me this is more important than whether you have 3 riders or 4.[/QUOTE]

Since the Olympics demands that it represent the “highest level of a sport” that means that the 4*s will have to dumb down as well.

[EventerAJ]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8946765]
Since the Olympics demands that it represent the “highest level of a sport” that means that the 4*s will have to dumb down as well.[/QUOTE]

They’re keeping it at 4* level dressage and show jumping, 3* level XC.

It’s already a delicate balance between phases, I’m not sure placing more emphasis on D & SJ is the way to go. Yes, I know it’s an attempt to make sure riders/nations are well-prepared…but it will reward weaker xc horses, perhaps. But then, having no drop score could also force a nation to send a team of good XC horses, rather than the fancy movers who either win or bust.

Why not just call it a 3* and be done with it? Keep the 4* for WEG and the usual classic CCI4*s. The FEI’s love affair with the Olympics is truly Eventing’s Biggest Enemy.

[WNT]

It would appear the biggest enemies of eventing are the FEI and the IOC :no:

[JP60]

[QUOTE=WNT;8946927]
It would appear the biggest enemies of eventing are the FEI and the IOC :no:[/QUOTE]
Given the rule change proposed by the FEI for the Olympics? I would agree. Tying WEG to Olympics standards just exacerbates the issue.

There was a great back and forth on show pricing, another enemy of the sport and I was waiting for this question so I’ll ask it. WHy are unrecognized shows less then recognized?

I’ll toss out a few guesses.

Recs have to provide upper level courses (above Prelim) and they cost more to make.
Recs have to have higher rated judges and they cost more.
Recs have to have rather expensive Course Designers for those upper level courses
Recs have to have extra officials that cost more money

and so on.

Basically, lower level teams, Starter to Training, are subsidizing the efforts a very small group of people. I recently backed out of show that would have cost me $342. I needed to buy hay for my horses that strangely cost about the same as the show (but will last me for two months). It is time that lower levels stop having to pay for the few to make it to the top. I respect the effort, t’were it not scary to watch I’d support it more as a spectator.

I was glad to read a few others starting to get the notion that having Professionals engaged with the lower level sphere is starting to have slight now, but ever increasing negative impact to the sport as a whole. Depending on my path in the next few months, this may be the last year I compete as a USEA member. UnRecs will be my venue for I won’t go past Training, if I get there, and will be happy playing at Novice. I’m goal oriented, I’m a slight adrenaline junkie, but I am not committed to pushing me or my horse…Just Because.

I’ll repeat my original comment, the enemy of Eventing is first and foremost Money. If that cannot be better managed, the recognized structure will slowly reduce to a few playing with big money.

Regarding that post on PD, here again we see the advent of the professional Jockey, bouncing from horse to horse. It will only get worse over time as there is a smaller pool of riders and a larger pool of owners wanting to push horses up and out for profit. This runs contrary to the foundations of the sport and as such, I personally would not want it connected to “classic” eventing. Part of the reason this happens that more and more “kids” with family deep pockets seek to have the prepared horse to get them in the game, not willing to take the time to grow with the horse. I thought I had a “made” horse, because he competed Dressage to 2nd level. Hah! Dang horse couldn’t get over a 2’3" vertical and it has taken both of us years to gain trust and competence to consider a move up.

I would not trade that time for anything. Then I look over and watch a kid get a ULH at Novice, just so he/she can move up without working at it. How is this possible? Thanks to folks like PD who will take a string, train horses up trying to find the next 4* horse, but selling off lesser ones to willing buyers. That is a lousy way to advance, but made possible by the professional jockey.

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=Frivian;8938525]
Not sure what the rule says specifically about riding the same horse in a warmup after being eliminated on that horse…but, I do know that I was eliminated on XC (not for falling off, mind you, but for refusals) at an event this summer. After leaving the course I specifically asked if I could school my horse over one or two (not TEN!) warmup fences just to make sure he wasn’t being rewarded for refusing. I was told “no” in no uncertain terms. Maybe I’m too much of a smurf to have the rules bent for me.[/QUOTE]

I fell off in stadium at a recognized show (refusal), asked if I could take my horse into the stadium warmup to take a few jumps, and was told “yes.”

[Marigold]

[QUOTE=JP60;8947154]
Then I look over and watch a kid get a ULH at Novice, just so he/she can move up without working at it. How is this possible? Thanks to folks like PD who will take a string, train horses up trying to find the next 4* horse, but selling off lesser ones to willing buyers. That is a lousy way to advance, but made possible by the professional jockey.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, I’ve taken exactly three lessons on a four star horse, but it was some of the best education I’ve ever received. Not because it was “easy” but because when I was right, he was RIGHT. That horse was an instructor all on his own, and he showed me how it was supposed to feel. Which, in turn, makes it possible for me to look for that in the greener horses I’m schooling.

Realize that I’ve never shown a horse that I hadn’t taken to it’s first event, so I’m far from someone who lives this life. And certainly there are significant drawbacks to always riding the made horse. But just like someone learns from riding with a coach who knows what’s correct, so too can someone learn from riding a horse that knows what’s correct. It’s not exclusively done for the purposes of “moving up without working at it”.

[Highflyer]

[QUOTE=JP60;8947154]
Given the rule change proposed by the FEI for the Olympics? I would agree. Tying WEG to Olympics standards just exacerbates the issue.

There was a great back and forth on show pricing, another enemy of the sport and I was waiting for this question so I’ll ask it. WHy are unrecognized shows less then recognized?

I’ll toss out a few guesses.

Recs have to provide upper level courses (above Prelim) and they cost more to make.
Recs have to have higher rated judges and they cost more.
Recs have to have rather expensive Course Designers for those upper level courses
Recs have to have extra officials that cost more money

and so on.

Basically, lower level teams, Starter to Training, are subsidizing the efforts a very small group of people. I recently backed out of show that would have cost me $342. I needed to buy hay for my horses that strangely cost about the same as the show (but will last me for two months). It is time that lower levels stop having to pay for the few to make it to the top. I respect the effort, t’were it not scary to watch I’d support it more as a spectator.

I was glad to read a few others starting to get the notion that having Professionals engaged with the lower level sphere is starting to have slight now, but ever increasing negative impact to the sport as a whole. Depending on my path in the next few months, this may be the last year I compete as a USEA member. UnRecs will be my venue for I won’t go past Training, if I get there, and will be happy playing at Novice. I’m goal oriented, I’m a slight adrenaline junkie, but I am not committed to pushing me or my horse…Just Because.

I’ll repeat my original comment, the enemy of Eventing is first and foremost Money. If that cannot be better managed, the recognized structure will slowly reduce to a few playing with big money.

Regarding that post on PD, here again we see the advent of the professional Jockey, bouncing from horse to horse. It will only get worse over time as there is a smaller pool of riders and a larger pool of owners wanting to push horses up and out for profit. This runs contrary to the foundations of the sport and as such, I personally would not want it connected to “classic” eventing. Part of the reason this happens that more and more “kids” with family deep pockets seek to have the prepared horse to get them in the game, not willing to take the time to grow with the horse. I thought I had a “made” horse, because he competed Dressage to 2nd level. Hah! Dang horse couldn’t get over a 2’3" vertical and it has taken both of us years to gain trust and competence to consider a move up.

I would not trade that time for anything. Then I look over and watch a kid get a ULH at Novice, just so he/she can move up without working at it. How is this possible? Thanks to folks like PD who will take a string, train horses up trying to find the next 4* horse, but selling off lesser ones to willing buyers. That is a lousy way to advance, but made possible by the professional jockey.[/QUOTE]

While I think everyone should have the experience of bringing on a green horse at least once, it’s not necessarily the best idea for many people to start that way.

[Littleluck55]

[QUOTE=KayBee;8947253]
I fell off in stadium at a recognized show (refusal), asked if I could take my horse into the stadium warmup to take a few jumps, and was told “yes.”[/QUOTE]

My daughter’s trainer was eliminated in stadium and was allowed to go cross country the next day with everyone else. And another girl who rides with us was eliminated in dressage but allowed to continue the other two phases. The scores still stood as eliminations but it allowed them to get experience for their horses. And this was 2 different events at 2 different venues.

[Littleluck55]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8947262]
While I think everyone should have the experience of bringing on a green horse at least once, it’s not necessarily the best idea for many people to start that way.[/QUOTE]

When we bought our first horse for our 14 year old daughter, everyone told us not to buy a green horse for a green rider. I even started a thread here and that was the consensus. So, we bought a horse who had safe competition miles on it. She works with a trainer who specializes in OTTB’s and is helping her bring along a second OTTB with her.