Eventing's Biggest Enemy?

[JP60]

This is what I love about CoTH Eventing forum. Where else can you go and get told

• What the hell do you know you LLR
• Why are you here typing, get off your lazy ass and do something
• Your mother rides a donkey

Man, I can feel the love every day:eek:

I lean toward the position that the primary purpose of this forum is to allow people who love their sport, though not necessarily of like mind, to gather and kavech. We may solve problems or not. We may learn things or not. if you are here, it means we want to know more about our sport and the world of horses. It’s like a nice wine bar (or beer hall) with crowds that come and go, all sharing their thoughts over libations.

Winding down will always yell at the likes of me who just seems to “type” and does nothing (I do). Others will question my ability to opine or comment for I lack the requisite experience (oh really?), but in the end, I soldier on, for what some anonymous person thinks of me in the negative hurts only on the surface.

Just in this thread alone I’ve learned more about this sport, about how I may better frame my words to officials, to watch for abhorrent behavior at all levels and report it, and glad in the notion that most of all, folks here really do care about the horse first. I like that.

Who knows, one day I may get my wish and the Pros take their ball and go play elsewhere…Please. My show costs may actually come down, I won’t have to deal with arrogant ULT or ULR trying to cut ahead or get the officials to look the other way…you know…shhhh…it’s her And I might feel I can talk to my officials without them looking down at me, patting my head and saying, go away little boy, “this course was not designed for you” or “it’s just english footing”. One can dream.

[lucegoose]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8941379]
It HAS been filmed, all 4 occasions have been posted on line… and NOTHING is being done about it. Just another sweep under the rug. You think taking photos and posting it for everyone to see is going to do something, but it happens each time and gets posted, people see it and report it and still NOTHING is or will be done. :([/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t say NOTHING is being done. There have been lots of articles and discussions prompted by these incidents; I would not be at all surprised to see rules being added or changed regarding blood. I am sure that her sponsorship is being affected by the pictures and coverage. Is it enough? Of course not. But like I already said, she is running out of places to hide, and that is because there has been documentation. And it is placing pressure on the FEI officials to do something.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=JP60;8941576]
This is what I love about CoTH Eventing forum. Where else can you go and get told

• What the hell do you know you LLR
• Why are you here typing, get off your lazy ass and do something
• Your mother rides a donkey

Man, I can feel the love every day:eek:

I lean toward the position that the primary purpose of this forum is to allow people who love their sport, though not necessarily of like mind, to gather and kavech.

Winding down will always yell at the likes of me who just seems to “type” and does nothing (I do). Others will question my ability to opine or comment for I lack the requisite experience (oh really?), but in the end, I soldier on, for what some anonymous person thinks of me in the negative hurts only on the surface.

Just in this thread alone I’ve learned more about this sport, about how I may better frame my words to officials, to watch for abhorrent behavior at all levels and report it, and glad in the notion that most of all, folks here really do care about the horse first. I like that.

Who knows, one day I may get my wish and the Pros take their ball and go play elsewhere…Please. My show costs may actually come down, I won’t have to deal with arrogant ULT or ULR trying to cut ahead or get the officials to look the other way…you know…shhhh…it’s her [/QUOTE]

So herein we disagree.

(1) what purpose does this forum serve?
I don’t see the purpose of this forum to “gather and kavech.” And I suspect that those who do, tend to avoid threads with a positive spin and pile on to threads with a negative spin. This accounts for why I can pretty much predict who will be on threads that open like this one did. I think JER is right. I need to stay away from pile on threads since I do not agree with the tone and perceived intent of many of the posts. JP60, we definitely do not agree on many core principles. But I am as concerned about abuse and safety as you are. I cope with this concern in a markedly different style and goal.

That being said, I have plenty to say about ML and her abuse of horses and want to work hard to set up rules to avoid that in the future. But my posts tend to be solution-focused and not kaveching. I loved what you posted on the other thread regarding what you are doing to help the sport and I know you do a lot. That may not be the case for others… who knows ?

(2) Perception of Pros.

I really REALLY do not wish that Pros will take their ball and go play elsewhere. I do not see the as arrogant or trying to cut ahead. Some of the most abusive and arrogant people I have met at events are LL Amateurs, especially in warm up. OMG, being cut off, yelled at, etc?

But most important: my riding and competing depends a great deal on ULRs and ULTs. I take lessons from them, I seek their advice, they help me evaluate horses and find prospects, they build great schooling facilities, and they make our awesome events in Area II possible. The list goes on. Name a sport that thrives that excludes all professionals. Surely there is one.

Okay, now I am kvetching! Time to go ride ponies before my back gives out entirely!

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=JP60;8941576]
This is what I love about CoTH Eventing forum. Where else can you go and get told

• What the hell do you know you LLR
• Why are you here typing, get off your lazy ass and do something
• Your mother rides a donkey

Man, I can feel the love every day:eek:

I lean toward the position that the primary purpose of this forum is to allow people who love their sport, though not necessarily of like mind, to gather and kavech. We may solve problems or not. We may learn things or not. if you are here, it means we want to know more about our sport and the world of horses. It’s like a nice wine bar (or beer hall) with crowds that come and go, all sharing their thoughts over libations.

Winding down will always yell at the likes of me who just seems to “type” and does nothing (I do). Others will question my ability to opine or comment for I lack the requisite experience (oh really?), but in the end, I soldier on, for what some anonymous person thinks of me in the negative hurts only on the surface.

Just in this thread alone I’ve learned more about this sport, about how I may better frame my words to officials, to watch for abhorrent behavior at all levels and report it, and glad in the notion that most of all, folks here really do care about the horse first. I like that.

Who knows, one day I may get my wish and the Pros take their ball and go play elsewhere…Please. My show costs may actually come down, I won’t have to deal with arrogant ULT or ULR trying to cut ahead or get the officials to look the other way…you know…shhhh…it’s her And I might feel I can talk to my officials without them looking down at me, patting my head and saying, go away little boy, “this course was not designed for you” or “it’s just english footing”. One can dream.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, I think Winding Down’s point was that it’s easy to sit here and hand-wring on a forum, but it won’t accomplish anything. It’s been done over and over here, yet our attendance at meetings is appallingly low. Her frustration comes from the same place yours does, JP & JER: frustration that the sport is devolving in a direction that we (collective) don’t want to see.

Instead of snarking each other, I think it’s best if we all do go to our respective area meetings and voice these concerns in front of real live people, not just on an internet BB. If you are doing that, great! Carry on! But if you aren’t, that’s where you can start.

The eventing community is really small. Trust me, you will be heard. I’m in Area 1 and look forward to meeting any of you that will be attending

[devvie]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8941379]
It HAS been filmed, all 4 occasions have been posted on line… and NOTHING is being done about it. Just another sweep under the rug. You think taking photos and posting it for everyone to see is going to do something, but it happens each time and gets posted, people see it and report it and still NOTHING is or will be done. :([/QUOTE]

Links? This thread would have been so much better if it had begun with a post including evidence of what was stated.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=JER;8941473]
Just in case you really are that dense:

1. You came on this thread scolding people to ‘get off your arses, stop whining about it, and DO something’. (That’s a quote from you, in case you’ve forgotten already.)

2. I replied to you that many people on this forum are taking actions to do what they can do to improve the sport. I said that you already knew that, because it had been explained to you previously.

3. You said that you didn’t know that people were taking action.

4. I called to your attention the thread that you started in August that demanded to know what people were doing other than whining on the internet. August wasn’t that long ago, there were about two dozen responses to your thread. You even participated in the discussion, which tends to give the impression that you read your own thread.

5. It is entirely disingenuous for you to come on here again and deny that you know what efforts posters on this forum are making to try and shape the sport in a positive direction. You asked for specifics and you got specifics. So now you’re just insulting your fellow eventers and making false accusations – and you’re the one complaining about ‘whining’?[/QUOTE]

No need to go all drama on us. I did not say that I didn’t know people were taking action.

The thread I started was not demanding at all. I found it to be an insightful and thought provoking thread. As did others.

I have not denied to know what efforts posters on this forum are making… Or if I did, please share. I don’t know what many of them are doing, and we do have our regulars who, as JP60 notes, use the forum to kvetch.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=devvie;8941612]
Links? This thread would have been so much better if it had begun with a post including evidence of what was stated.[/QUOTE]

yes, and … well, yes…

[JP60]

@jeloushe

Hell, I blogged about the one time I lost my temper and hit my horse upside the head. I still hate myself for it but I don’t excuse it away… (link)

I just want to say, publically, you are a credit to this sport. I cannot imagine any rider, after some time in the seat not having had such an experience. Yes, more of us need to not only come out and share such a moment, we also can use it as a teaching moment so others start to do the same. Maybe even those ULR that live in glasshouses and don’t consider how much we see might try confession out for size.

I’ve never had the opportunity to hit my horses, but I remember one time with Sterling, I was practicing, I was not in a good mood, and he “seemed” to not want to listen and Do What I Say! It got to the point where I start to just yank his head around and just get rough. Then it hit me, hard, it was not that he wasn’t listening, he couldn’t hear me for all the shouting I had been doing with my body. I am surprised he didn’t try to buck me off.

I felt horrible for I knew better, but the job, the day, the frustration of not “getting it” just blew away reason and feeling. For a long moment I sat there feeling like crap then made a decision. We walked off on a long rein, I wiped tears from my eyes, I patted his neck, I let him be, I fought the demons in me. Finally after sometime I gently asked, as I picked up the reins, if he’d like to …and he just stepped into trot before I could finish the question. “No worries Dad, just stop shouting and getting angry with me”.

I confessed to my trainer (she always knows somehow), we worked on the problem, but most important, I moved forward from that moment. I became much more aware that if there is a issue, look at the human first. Don’t take it out on the horse. Since then, when I can’t “get it” I change the question and finish on a good moment. Amazing what horses teach us when we listen to them.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8941609]
To be fair, I think Winding Down’s point was that it’s easy to sit here and hand-wring on a forum, but it won’t accomplish anything. It’s been done over and over here, yet our attendance at meetings is appallingly low. Her frustration comes from the same place yours does, JP & JER: frustration that the sport is devolving in a direction that we (collective) don’t want to see.

Instead of snarking each other, I think it’s best if we all do go to our respective area meetings and voice these concerns in front of real live people, not just on an internet BB. If you are doing that, great! Carry on! But if you aren’t, that’s where you can start.

The eventing community is really small. Trust me, you will be heard. I’m in Area 1 and look forward to meeting any of you that will be attending :)[/QUOTE]

beowulf, I am going to get to that meeting, come hell or high water.

And thank you for clarifying my point(s). Handwringing, kvetching, etc has no impact unless it is solution-focused. And I do not think building a wall is a viable solution. :lol:

[Pennywell_Bay]

To the topic of “Eventing’s Biggest Enemy”, from a relative eventing newbie but seasoned hunter, one of the same scenarios that has plagued the hunter world:

Owners turning a blind eye to bad horsemanship and sportsmanship by still supporting ULRs demonstrating such behavior.

Officials turning a blind eye to the conduct of ULRs.

If there are no consequences, there does not seem to be a reason to change for those who are acting in an unscrupulous manner, as for whatever reason, owners are not making ULRs accountable.

It is a sad state of affairs.

[LadyB]

[QUOTE=devvie;8941612]
Links? This thread would have been so much better if it had begun with a post including evidence of what was stated.[/QUOTE]

You haven’t seen the photos of ML and her horse with Blood? There is proof and people bringing it to light… but yet nothing gets done about it. Its already brushed under the carpet.

The thing is, sites are reporting it and trying to cover it all at the same time.

http://eventingnation.com/christian-landolt-marilyn-little-address-fair-hill-blood-concerns/

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/if-it-bleeds-it-leads-or-does-it

http://imgur.com/gallery/mjHWY82

http://www.equestrianathart.com/2016/10/blood-rules/

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/757/21576235674_0f55c33bb2_b.jpg

https://the900facebookpony.com/2015/10/23/when-does-control-become-abuse/

Sorry to target ML only, as this is the only incidents I know of, the others I could not put names to the incidents.

But here is proof, people have proof yet nothing is being done about it. A slap on the wrist, not even, for ML. They are doing nothing about it. 4 documented occasions and not even one yellow card about them? So we are saying HEY you ULR’s, its okay to do wrong, you’re safe.

My point is, people are posting about it, yes its online, but that’s just how the world is now. Officials knew about it, and did nothing about it. Waited until the tack was off to check her at FH 2016. Seems extremely suspicious that on 4 different occasions she’s been able to just slither on through.

But I’m just your average Adult Amateur trying to go Prelim, what do I know right? I’ve only worked for one 4* rider and one 3* rider, but what do I know right? I haven’t been in the barns or anything right? I know nothing because I’m just a LL rider.

This mind set needs to go.

[LadyB]

thehorsepesterer nearly always posts the top 3 riders at events, notice he didn’t even post her xc video… no one else find that rather interesting?

[lucegoose]

@Jealoushe;8941564

Except these cases were not bad intentional things. I’m talking about those who have been witnessed abusing their horses or stewards at the show, things that people don’t want to admit.

I guess I don’t have a good enough answer for you. I have read plenty of riders’ blogs and social media posts that demonstrate moments of remorse, doubt and guilt over decisions that they’ve made. I don’t know that most yellow cards or warnings are caused by “intentional” acts. I think most are cases of ignorance, willful or otherwise, including the drugging situations. It doesn’t excuse the behavior, but I think it explains the responses most riders have. They aren’t evil. And they don’t go in the startbox thinking, “Hmm, today I’ll beat my horse bloody if he stops!”

And I think there is a lot of willful ignorance on the part of clients and sponsors. There are Area pros that have cult-like fan clubs and many I just simply. don’t. get. it. Some of them behave badly at shows and don’t exemplify the sport. But they present themselves well, place well, and don’t technically break rules, so they get away with it. The best that I can do is vote with my pocketbooks and if someone asks me about them, I answer honestly. And yeah, if I see something bad, you’d better believe I’m whipping out my phone and filming.

Not always easy to take video, but I always speak up when I see something. A lot of show organizers turn their head, especially when it’s a pro with 8 horses showing that day.

I actually saw a coach beat the hell out of a horse who was quitting at a hunter show. I reported it to the farm owner and show manager, she talked to the judge and judge said since she didn’t see it she can’t so anything. Like what??? The horse was hit as hard as possible at least 14 times. It was disgusting.

What was the judge meant to do? I don’t know a lot about hunter shows, but the judge is really just concerned with what’s happening in the ring in front of her. It should have been up to the show manager/farm owner/ring steward to address the issue. I’m sure it was disgusting, but if there wasn’t anyone willing to corroborate your report or other evidence, what is she meant to do?

[JP60]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8941631]
beowulf, I am going to get to that meeting, come hell or high water.

And thank you for clarifying my point(s). Handwringing, kvetching, etc has no impact unless it is solution-focused. And I do not think building a wall is a viable solution. :lol:[/QUOTE]
We are not far apart on this so I won’t belabor the point after this. Hand wringing, Kvetching…these are sometimes the nuggets that start the eventual problem solving that can come about. At the end of the day, the sport is a community and by extension, so to this forum. Every community has moments of just … sharing. Sometimes it’s jsut nice to tell or hear a story, a confession or commiseration. WD, either you are a hard heart, which I doubt, of you have to see that life is not all about problem solving, it is first about acknowledging people and who they are, what they think and feel.

I’m not going to solve the problem of ML in our sport, but the next time she brings drama to the sport (and we all know she will), coming here and remarking on her next horrible ride and having others respond not only makes me feel better, but I learn for it means my eye is getting wiser. That’s kvetching to me.

This is whining, I work a full time job in a sucky company, with draconian vacation rules that limit my ability to get away. Going to even area meetings means giving up a day away from hell to go have fun, forget the National event. I’d think a savvy organization would have someone monitor forums such as this, attempting to separate wheat from the chaff and get a bell weather on it’s community. In lue of that, I write when it is needed, surely ignored like others have posted.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8941650]
thehorsepesterer nearly always posts the top 3 riders at events, notice he didn’t even post her xc video… no one else find that rather interesting?[/QUOTE]

She had all of her videos/photography of that event taken down.

Not trying to start another lambasting but I think it’s sad that the photographers/videographers obliged. My personal opinion only, that’s “aiding and abetting” - by removing all ‘evidence’.

[LadyB]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8941662]
She had all of her videos/photography of that event taken down.

Not trying to start another lambasting but I think it’s sad that the photographers/videographers obliged. My personal opinion only, that’s “aiding and abetting” - by removing all ‘evidence’.[/QUOTE]

Yes a few of the links I had found from the 2015 COTH post were “not able to be found” so aka taken down. No this can’t become a ‘witch hunt’. Its just the only incident that the OP posted about that I knew about.

[lucegoose]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8941644]

But I’m just your average Adult Amateur trying to go Prelim, what do I know right? I’ve only worked for one 4* rider and one 3* rider, but what do I know right? I haven’t been in the barns or anything right? I know nothing because I’m just a LL rider.

This mind set needs to go.[/QUOTE]

This keeps getting brought up by several posters, and I honestly don’t get that vibe from this thread at all (aside from the one comment made early on).

I don’t see anyone apologizing for ULRs behaving badly or treating them like infallible gods because we are just too smurf-y to question them. I think everyone agrees that riders, particularly ones who seem to constantly getting caught doing shady things, really do need to be dealt with and not ignored. But there needs to be a distinction between those sort of riders and the ones that have bad choices/moments passed on thirdhand and gossiped about on anonymous sites.

[StarstruckEventing]

Just a general thought to this thread. The public outcry regarding the ML incident on both this forum and social media is the main reason most people know about it. Yes it was documented with photos, but without the discussions here I doubt that much if anything would be done to prevent or punish similar incidents in the future. The officials during each of those competitions obviously thought the blood was a non issue and did not issue any reprimands of any kind for its presence. Time will tell if the outcry from the public will encourage the officials or the FEI to make any meaningful changes, but it is exactly that (outcry from the public) which is putting the pressure on them to do so.

So I guess what I am trying to say in essence is that coming on here and voicing concerns IS doing something. You may even say it is as important as going to conventions and voicing concerns in person. It both spreads awareness and allows people who may never get a chance to meet in person to bounce ideas off of each other as to what can be done to ensure horse welfare. Both ULRs and officials (as evidenced by this thread) come on here to read and engage with this audience. People looking for trainers likely come on here to vet out possible candidates. If no one knows about the dirty behind the barn practices of said trainers (because they have managed to skirt official reprimands) then we are doing a disservice as a community to those people. We should all be here to support the welfare of the horse and of the community at large. Sometimes that means outing abusive trainers. I DO think it is important to either have hard evidence or have been there first hand before spreading any information. Unless you have seen it yourself it is no more than a rumor.

[lucegoose]

[QUOTE=StarstruckEventing;8941684]
Just a general thought to this thread. The public outcry regarding the ML incident on both this forum and social media is the main reason most people know about it. Yes it was documented with photos, but without the discussions here I doubt that much if anything would be done to prevent or punish similar incidents in the future. The officials during each of those competitions obviously thought the blood was a non issue and did not issue any reprimands of any kind for its presence. Time will tell if the outcry from the public will encourage the officials or the FEI to make any meaningful changes, but it is exactly that (outcry from the public) which is putting the pressure on them to do so.

So I guess what I am trying to say in essence is that coming on here and voicing concerns IS doing something. You may even say it is as important as going to conventions and voicing concerns in person. It both spreads awareness and allows people who may never get a chance to meet in person to bounce ideas off of each other as to what can be done to ensure horse welfare. Both ULRs and officials (as evidenced by this thread) come on here to read and engage with this audience. People looking for trainers likely come on here to vet out possible candidates. If no one knows about the dirty behind the barn practices of said trainers (because they have managed to skirt official reprimands) then we are doing a disservice as a community to those people. We should all be here to support the welfare of the horse and of the community at large. Sometimes that means outing abusive trainers. I DO think it is important to either have hard evidence or have been there first hand before spreading any information. Unless you have seen it yourself it is no more than a rumor.[/QUOTE]

You have put into words my exact feelings on this entire subject. Thank you.

[devvie]

I misunderstood–thought that you were referred to the OP, not this

[QUOTE=LadyB;8941644]
You haven’t seen the photos of ML and her horse with Blood? There is proof and people bringing it to light… but yet nothing gets done about it. Its already brushed under the carpet.

The thing is, sites are reporting it and trying to cover it all at the same time.

http://eventingnation.com/christian-landolt-marilyn-little-address-fair-hill-blood-concerns/

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/if-it-bleeds-it-leads-or-does-it

http://imgur.com/gallery/mjHWY82

http://www.equestrianathart.com/2016/10/blood-rules/

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/757/21576235674_0f55c33bb2_b.jpg

https://the900facebookpony.com/2015/10/23/when-does-control-become-abuse/

Sorry to target ML only, as this is the only incidents I know of, the others I could not put names to the incidents.

But here is proof, people have proof yet nothing is being done about it. A slap on the wrist, not even, for ML. They are doing nothing about it. 4 documented occasions and not even one yellow card about them? So we are saying HEY you ULR’s, its okay to do wrong, you’re safe.

My point is, people are posting about it, yes its online, but that’s just how the world is now. Officials knew about it, and did nothing about it. Waited until the tack was off to check her at FH 2016. Seems extremely suspicious that on 4 different occasions she’s been able to just slither on through.

But I’m just your average Adult Amateur trying to go Prelim, what do I know right? I’ve only worked for one 4* rider and one 3* rider, but what do I know right? I haven’t been in the barns or anything right? I know nothing because I’m just a LL rider.

This mind set needs to go.[/QUOTE]