Eventing's Biggest Enemy?

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=lucegoose;8941653]

What was the judge meant to do? I don’t know a lot about hunter shows, but the judge is really just concerned with what’s happening in the ring in front of her. It should have been up to the show manager/farm owner/ring steward to address the issue. I’m sure it was disgusting, but if there wasn’t anyone willing to corroborate your report or other evidence, what is she meant to do?[/QUOTE]

I don’t know, I actually thought the owner/show management should have been the one but they went to the judge???

I had to yell at the coach to get the hell out of the ring and I did it in front of about 30 people waiting for warm up. Then I blasted it all over social media so everyone would know what happened and how the show did nothing either.

I will never sit aside and watch a horse have the crap beat out of it over a 2’ fence simply because the coach is trainer at a big barn in the area.

[JP60]

@WindingDown

But most important: my riding and competing depends a great deal on ULRs and ULTs. I take lessons from them, I seek their advice, they help me evaluate horses and find prospects, they build great schooling facilities, and they make our awesome events in Area II possible. The list goes on. Name a sport that thrives that excludes all professionals. Surely there is one.

Up front, this is opinion, but I’ll address in reference to the Title of the thread.

I’ll clarify my original thought, I do not want to see professional jockeys in my amatuer sport. I do not want to see an ULR show up at a local/regional show riding multiple horses or pulling catch rides for owners trying to push up a horse. This approach is an anathema to the foundations of this sport. While we can all find moments of asshatery in all levels, my own experience is that professionals, people who only do this sport for a living, do hold themselves in a different place than amateurs.

You talk about gaining value from Professionals, but the examples you cite occur outside the realm of the venue, the competition. What they do outside the fence matters little to me since it is done behind the closed doors of their business. When, like in the case of ML, they air their style in public, they sully the sport by their actions, I want no part of their experience in where I play.

You, and many others here have been in this sport for a very long time and I think it has blinded you to what is happening. You, like others might say “I don’t see why that’s a difficult fence at novice”, because you look at it from the peak, not the valley and please, the excuse of a green horse does not count. Time and time it has been talked about that there is course creep and I can tell you for a fact, it is not the green as grass rider (like I use to be), the kid on a fat pony wanting a triple combo skinny to a coffin line at novice. I look up for that type of decision. Amateurs are slowly losing control of this sport.

What is the most basic difference between a Professional and an Amateur?

Money. Once money is involved there is pressure to produce, to maintain top performance, to get the job done and no matter how much we say professionals care for the horse, that horse either makes money, or gets moved along. Jel hits her horse once and breaks down vowing never again. I treat mine rough and vow never again. ML gets four bloody mouths, rides two horses in exhaustion with falls and we only ponder when the next moment occurs. Why? ML rides for money. Even professionals I respect are getting caught up in this train wreck. If you don’t have a string, if you are not playing by the rules set down by power and money then forget a team spot. When the likes of Denny Emerson turns his back on what professionals are doing today, focusing on building better riders at the lower levels, I’m figuring he sees what I see only a lot better.

This is why I want professionals out of my sandbox when it comes to competitions. Their needs are different then mine, their purpose different than mine, and the approach to riding different then mine and I’d say I’m a typical AA today. They cost me at shows if I want to be recognized compared to the local mom and pop that they’d hardly ever go to.

If you want an example, sailing. There is a thriving community of amatuer sailors that almost never comes close to rubbing shoulders with professionals either in competition or even the extras. Local clubs run inexpensive regattas all the time and if a Pro did show up, they play by the club rules which are standard over the sailing community. Classes from Optis, Buccaneer 18s, J24s, and handicap fleets all somehow survive without professionals in their midsts. In my class, Buccs, a professional was barred from being skipper on the two man boat at major events. Pros have their own races, regattas all the way to the top and they also have their own rules.

The enemy of this sport may be all the stuff written in these pages, but at the root, it is Money. At the end of the day, I want Money out of my sandbox so it can go corrupt something I’d prefer not to watch.

[FrittSkritt]

IMO it’s not just LLRs who are being ignored. I’ve also heard of officials pulling the same s*** (ignoring or brushing off an issue or concern) with other officials who are at a lower level than they are or apprenticing. There really seems to be an ethos of “I’ve ridden at a higher level/officiated longer/done XYZ more than you, so don’t dare question my authority” in the horse world.

Anyone familiar with the aviation industry knows this mentality was a HUGE issue back in the day; traditionally everyone adhered to the hierarchy of the cockpit crew and no one questioned the captain’s decisions. It wasn’t until the late 70s after many deadly [but entirely preventable] crashes attributed to human error that they finally acknowledged that there needed to be a culture shift. The deadliest incident in aviation history could have been avoided had the captain actually listened to the flight engineer who basically said, “I don’t think he told us to take off” and would have saved 600 people from getting killed. The evolution of crew/cockpit resource management (CRM) acknowledged that the environment needed to change to one of equal respect, cooperation, and teamwork – not this antiquated chain of command that had dominated the cockpits for so long.

I’ve heard firsthand from apprenticing officials that they were unwilling to speak up about something they believed to be an issue for fear of being wrong or worse, not being taken seriously. THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE. There is NO WAY we can move forward if officials and ULRs keep maintaining this attitude of superiority and distrust.

This is a great video to watch that gives a bit of background and structure on CRM. It’s meant for the healthcare industry, but I truly believe the practices could – and should – be applied to eventing and other horse sports.

[pony_grandma]

I went to show mgt with a video I took at the State Fair, yrs ago when my DDs were showing there. In fact it was my kids who came and got me and alerted me to the situation - a pair of young girls, with an adult, in the warm-up ring, smacking their horses between the ears with their riding crops every time the horse lifted their head an iowda. When I went into the office to broach the subject they all ignored me, they all knew exactly who the adult was in this infraction - then I lifted my video camera above the counter and said that I would do something about it. Boy did they get up fast. What impression does this leave going on in public like this?

I stopped kids at the local level - I’d say not here, not now. If I see it again I am discussing this with your parents and publicly with the club.

Take action.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=pony grandma;8941761]
I went to show mgt with a video I took at the State Fair, yrs ago when my DDs were showing there. In fact it was my kids who came and got me and alerted me to the situation - a pair of young girls, with an adult, in the warm-up ring, smacking their horses between the ears with their riding crops every time the horse lifted their head an iowda. When I went into the office to broach the subject they all ignored me, they all knew exactly who the adult was in this infraction - then I lifted my video camera above the counter and said that I would do something about it. Boy did they get up fast. What impression does this leave going on in public like this?

I stopped kids at the local level - I’d say not here, not now. If I see it again I am discussing this with your parents and publicly with the club.

Take action.[/QUOTE]

THIS! Thank you. Yes, it was at a local show and not a big venue with a TD and all that. But this is the sort of intervention, protest, demand that we need to take.

In regard to ML threads, my recollection is that we discussed solutions a lot, both on this forum and on Social Media.

Take action!

As for me, I am all for protests and marches and demonstrating, and writing letters and more, now more than ever before. But this forum is not about politics… I digress.

[Winding_Down]

JP60, we probably do have a lot of the same goals

[FrittSkritt]

IMO it’s not just LLRs who are being ignored. I’ve also heard of officials pulling the same s*** (ignoring or brushing off an issue or concern) with other officials who are at a lower level than they are or apprenticing. There really seems to be an ethos of “I’ve ridden at a higher level/officiated longer/done XYZ more than you, so don’t question my authority” in the horse world. :no:

Anyone familiar with the aviation industry knows this mentality was a HUGE issue back in the day; traditionally everyone adhered to the hierarchy of the cockpit crew and no one questioned the captain’s decisions: the word of the captain = word of God. It wasn’t until the late 70s/early 80s after many deadly [but entirely preventable] crashes attributed to human error that they finally acknowledged that there needed to be a culture shift. The deadliest incident in aviation history could have been avoided had the captain actually listened to the flight engineer who basically said, “I don’t think he told us to take off” and would have saved 600 people from getting killed. The evolution of crew/cockpit resource management (CRM) acknowledged that the environment needed to change to one of equal respect, cooperation, and teamwork – not this antiquated chain of command that had dominated the cockpits for so long.

I’ve heard firsthand from apprenticing officials that they were unwilling to speak up about something they believed to be an issue for fear of being wrong or worse, not being taken seriously. THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE. :mad: There is NO WAY we can move forward if officials and ULRs keep maintaining this attitude of superiority and distrust.

This is a great video to watch that gives a bit of background on CRM… it’s only 5 minutes long, and I highly, highly recommend everyone watch it. It’s meant for the healthcare industry, but I truly believe the practices could – should – be applied to eventing and other horse sports.

[LadyB]

And its hard to move forward when posters complain about people posting on here and it doing nothing. Raising awareness is doing something, its a start, a step in the right direction.

[Synthesis]

[QUOTE=JP60;8941627]
I just want to say, publically, you are a credit to this sport. I cannot imagine any rider, after some time in the seat not having had such an experience. Yes, more of us need to not only come out and share such a moment, we also can use it as a teaching moment so others start to do the same. Maybe even those ULR that live in glasshouses and don’t consider how much we see might try confession out for size.

I’ve never had the opportunity to hit my horses, but I remember one time with Sterling, I was practicing, I was not in a good mood, and he “seemed” to not want to listen and Do What I Say! It got to the point where I start to just yank his head around and just get rough. Then it hit me, hard, it was not that he wasn’t listening, he couldn’t hear me for all the shouting I had been doing with my body. I am surprised he didn’t try to buck me off.

I felt horrible for I knew better, but the job, the day, the frustration of not “getting it” just blew away reason and feeling. For a long moment I sat there feeling like crap then made a decision. We walked off on a long rein, I wiped tears from my eyes, I patted his neck, I let him be, I fought the demons in me. Finally after sometime I gently asked, as I picked up the reins, if he’d like to …and he just stepped into trot before I could finish the question. “No worries Dad, just stop shouting and getting angry with me”.

I confessed to my trainer (she always knows somehow), we worked on the problem, but most important, I moved forward from that moment. I became much more aware that if there is a issue, look at the human first. Don’t take it out on the horse. Since then, when I can’t “get it” I change the question and finish on a good moment. Amazing what horses teach us when we listen to them.[/QUOTE]

Its funny you bring this up. I had a rare day a bit like that on Tuesday and yes I feel less than pleased with myself. Then again, I’ve also been around this long enough to know horses have days they don’t want to work with you either.

I’m working on getting my horse to stretch down and out while pushing forward. She’s figured out forward is not optional and working across the back is HARD. So she’s trying to barge through the front door now. We had session of “Dammit, stop rushing through my hands, and bracing. Rein back, get your butt under you and we can go forward when you stop being dramatic” This took a while. Not as sympathetic as my normal approach, I lost my patience more than I’d like. It sucks, I’ll try harder next ride.

Then again, as soon as she did as requested I let it go. And we got what I asked for, peacefully. She tried, I tried, we achieved and then on to other things.

And maybe someone watching us for that moment in time would have thought I was a rough, handsy, impatient jerk of a rider. Maybe in the moment they were right. Maybe in the moment, my mare was acting like a bit of a 1500lb toddler who needed limits clearly set. Maybe it was somewhere in the middle.

None of us are perfect, lowest smurf to highest Olympian. The danger is when we can’t acknowledge, reasonably discuss or analyse what went wrong; whether in the moment or later.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=lucegoose;8941668]
This keeps getting brought up by several posters, and I honestly don’t get that vibe from this thread at all (aside from the one comment made early on).

I don’t see anyone apologizing for ULRs behaving badly or treating them like infallible gods because we are just too smurf-y to question them. I think everyone agrees that riders, particularly ones who seem to constantly getting caught doing shady things, really do need to be dealt with and not ignored. But there needs to be a distinction between those sort of riders and the ones that have bad choices/moments passed on thirdhand and gossiped about on anonymous sites.[/QUOTE]

Thank you lucegoose.

It has occurred to me that critiques of “ULRs” are particularly bothersome to me because that involves labeling and generalizing about a group that is as diverse as we are. And the labels are damning.

Most all ULRs are excellent horse people. One may argue that I am exaggerating when I say “most.” So what if 50% are excellent horse people…

I like spending time with those who are. I like learning from them. Most I know are very helpful and polite.

But I do not like ML. I have no desire to sit next to her or talk with her. She is not a good horse person at all. Period. I have seen enough to draw that conclusion.

If I were to sit down and list the “bad behaviors” of equestrians at events over the years, I would probably have MORE amateurs on that list. The common part of that list would probably be related to limited experience, emotional intelligence, reactivity, and the like. What those people would likely have in common would be certain personality characteristics. It would have nothing to do with money.

And I hope that those who are prone to bad actions are weeded out… in fact, I suspect that almost all of them are… with a few exceptions.

[Marigold]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8941662]
She had all of her videos/photography of that event taken down. [/QUOTE]

I know Ms. Ridiculous has explained a little of how this is possible on third-party blogs, etc. on other threads, but I would love to know how she manages this with the photographers and videographers themselves. They own the material. I was checking thehorsepesterer frequently, waiting for the upload, and was so disheartened when I finally realized it wouldn’t be going up.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=Marigold;8941972]
I know Ms. Ridiculous has explained a little of how this is possible on third-party blogs, etc. on other threads, but I would love to know how she manages this with the photographers and videographers themselves. They own the material. I was checking thehorsepesterer frequently, waiting for the upload, and was so disheartened when I finally realized it wouldn’t be going up.[/QUOTE]

I have a feeling that hp did not post her videos.

[LadyB]

I dont think HP posted them by his own choice… knowing.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8941961]
Thank you lucegoose.

It has occurred to me that critiques of “ULRs” are particularly bothersome to me because that involves labeling and generalizing about a group that is as diverse as we are. And the labels are damning.

Most all ULRs are excellent horse people. One may argue that I am exaggerating when I say “most.” So what if 50% are excellent horse people…

I like spending time with those who are. I like learning from them. Most I know are very helpful and polite.

But I do not like ML. I have no desire to sit next to her or talk with her. She is not a good horse person at all. Period. I have seen enough to draw that conclusion.

If I were to sit down and list the “bad behaviors” of equestrians at events over the years, I would probably have MORE amateurs on that list. The common part of that list would probably be related to limited experience, emotional intelligence, reactivity, and the like. What those people would likely have in common would be certain personality characteristics. It would have nothing to do with money.

And I hope that those who are prone to bad actions are weeded out… in fact, I suspect that almost all of them are… with a few exceptions.[/QUOTE]
Of course you would. As I recall, 80-85% of USEA members are Training level and below. We could do an analysis on the ratio of declared professional to amateur. When you are dealing with a large pool, you will see a larger cross section of behavior. Even in the list of professionals, many of them may be making money as Trainers for mainly lower level students, riding/conditioning horses on the side or the myriad of ways to get labeled professional.

That is not the main point.

Professional athletes may not like this thought, but once they choose to be in the public eye, then they should realize that as a public figure, their actions will carry more weight, inspire or deflate more than the likes of JP60 and his trusty and dapper steed. This is partially why some little known pro slaps her horse and doesn’t get a mention and ML farts funny and it is all over the social media. Professional Jockeys, and I did not coin that, are changing this sport. I am not concerned on character, most of them are good people, but they bring to the sport a way that reduces the heart of this sport. It’s a way that creates a ML, that almost imperceptibly begins to place the horse that slight one step back. It is an attitude that says “let’s make it more technical to please spectators, to really scare riders” and so we see skinny after skinny, corner after corner, open square oxers, flat tables. We fix things with pins instead of asking, is this too much? Please the owner, please the sponsors, please the organizers, please even the riders, but in all that glad handing, what happens to the horse.

I’m not talking about money so much as it relates to personal behavior, though it’s a factor. I am saying that Money is taking this sport away from it’s heart and professional riders, needing to make money are along for the ride.

[brindille]

[QUOTE=JER;8939534]
Maybe Clear Water is transitioning and if so, deserves his privacy at this time.[/QUOTE]

This is the most brilliant post ever.

[SnicklefritzG]

How many threads are there are about “Should I stay with barn X” or “stay with trainer Y”, where the root cause of the issues are conflicts between opinions? I think there are quite a few professionals who want to do things their way for one reason or another and aren’t willing to listen to anyone else. People are often told by the pro that such and such is the only way not because it truly is, but because it is convenient for the pro, or they just want to control things.

The types of things we see going on between the professionals and their clients seems to be spilling into other aspects of the equestrian industry

[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8941821]
IMO it’s not just LLRs who are being ignored. I’ve also heard of officials pulling the same s*** (ignoring or brushing off an issue or concern) with other officials who are at a lower level than they are or apprenticing. There really seems to be an ethos of “I’ve ridden at a higher level/officiated longer/done XYZ more than you, so don’t question my authority” in the horse world. :no:

Anyone familiar with the aviation industry knows this mentality was a HUGE issue back in the day; traditionally everyone adhered to the hierarchy of the cockpit crew and no one questioned the captain’s decisions: the word of the captain = word of God. It wasn’t until the late 70s/early 80s after many deadly [but entirely preventable] crashes attributed to human error that they finally acknowledged that there needed to be a culture shift.
I think what you described in your post is very relevant. Control and superiority aren’t just limited to competitions. They are a huge part of the equestrian industry as a whole.

The deadliest incident in aviation history could have been avoided had the captain actually listened to the flight engineer who basically said, “I don’t think he told us to take off” and would have saved 600 people from getting killed. The evolution of crew/cockpit resource management (CRM) acknowledged that the environment needed to change to one of equal respect, cooperation, and teamwork – not this antiquated chain of command that had dominated the cockpits for so long.

I’ve heard firsthand from apprenticing officials that they were unwilling to speak up about something they believed to be an issue for fear of being wrong or worse, not being taken seriously. THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE. :mad: There is NO WAY we can move forward if officials and ULRs keep maintaining this attitude of superiority and distrust.

This is a great video to watch that gives a bit of background on CRM… it’s only 5 minutes long, and I highly, highly recommend everyone watch it. It’s meant for the healthcare industry, but I truly believe the practices could – should – be applied to eventing and other horse sports.[/QUOTE]

[Marigold]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8942001]
I dont think HP posted them by his own choice… knowing.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure you’re right but…why? What power does she hold over him? He owns the material. If it was a personal choice not to get involved, posting every round but hers is at least tacit acknowledgement of his position on the matter.

Censorship is not what we need, and it’s certainly not what videographers, who are already trying to make a living in a tough profession, need.

[Winding_Down]

Okay JP60. I hear you. And in the past, Americans who were at the ULs were often very wealthy. It really was a sport for the rich.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8942219]
Okay JP60. I hear you. And in the past, Americans who were at the ULs were often very wealthy. It really was a sport for the rich.[/QUOTE]

Still is as far as I can tell…at all levels and especially the higher ones. If anything, it has gotten DAMN more expensive. As has SJ. I make extremely good money, well within the 1%ers and I’m priced out. Some of the pro riders want eventing to be more like the show world. BUT what many do not understand is THAT world has priced out most 1%ers…there just are not that many people around who have that level of money and they are all basically fighting to make that same buck.

As opposed to what the sport USED to be…mostly non-professional riders at all levels.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8942242]
Still is as far as I can tell…at all levels and especially the higher ones. If anything, it has gotten DAMN more expensive. As has SJ. I make extremely good money, well within the 1%ers and I’m priced out. Some of the pro riders want eventing to be more like the show world. BUT what many do not understand is THAT world has priced out most 1%ers…there just are not that many people around who have that level of money and they are all basically fighting to make that same buck.

As opposed to what the sport USED to be…mostly non-professional riders at all levels.[/QUOTE]

Basically we have a system where 50 ULR’s (of varying degrees of wealth) are in the process of selling out the sport so that they can ride 5-10 ULH’s each. They don’t care if they have to price out 1000’s of LLR’s entirely in order to do so.