[QUOTE=NCRider;8942253]
Basically we have a system where 50 ULR’s (of varying degrees of wealth) are in the process of selling out the sport so that they can ride 5-10 ULH’s each. They don’t care if they have to price out 1000’s of LLR’s entirely in order to do so.[/QUOTE]
Sadly I think this is a pretty accurate assessment.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8942219]
Okay JP60. I hear you. And in the past, Americans who were at the ULs were often very wealthy. It really was a sport for the rich.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8942242]Still is as far as I can tell…at all levels and especially the higher ones.
As opposed to what the sport USED to be…mostly non-professional riders at all levels.[/QUOTE]
We used to have more non-pros at all levels but that was because those at the highest levels were typically wealthy and not in need of extra income.
And remember also that the LL riders got very little to no attention back in the day. There was no BN or N division, and further back, there was no T division. If you weren’t ready to go out a prelim, you just kept fox hunting instead.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8942425]
We used to have more non-pros at all levels but that was because those at the highest levels were typically wealthy and not in need of extra income.
And remember also that the LL riders got very little to no attention back in the day. There was no BN or N division, and further back, there was no T division. If you weren’t ready to go out a prelim, you just kept fox hunting instead.[/QUOTE]
There were LL at unrecognized events. You just didn’t compete at recognized until aiming to do a 1*. And most eventers did aspire to that level. There is a TON about the sport that has changed. Some good and some not. But as the fact that this is an expensive sport really hasn’t changed and if anything, gotten more expensive as fewer people own and live on farms.
[QUOTE=JP60;8941576]
Just in this thread alone I’ve learned more about this sport, about how I may better frame my words to officials, to watch for abhorrent behavior at all levels and report it, and glad in the notion that most of all, folks here really do care about the horse first. I like that. [/QUOTE]
This is so important.
Participating in an organized sport can be overwhelming, especially so in individual sports. You don’t have a team, you often don’t have a coach, you’re simply one individual trying to figure it out and muddle through to some degree of goal accomplishment. Along the way, you need to learn the language of the sport and how to deal with loads of unfamiliar what-ifs.
A forum like this can go along way towards helping you understand that new culture and answer your questions.
Back in the day, from what I remember, the UL riders were given Team horses to ride. I believe that they did not have a great deal of money, unless they had a wealthy benefactor. If you remember, the riders trying to make the Olympic Teams had to be “amateurs.” Professionals could not go to the Olympics, even though there were ways around that rule.
I know that Jack Warner, President of Gulf States Paper Corp., sponsored Dennis Murphy, Jr. for the SJ team. Dennis definitely was not independently wealthy!
When Mr. Warner had a mare that was not working out for the SJ Team, he donated her to the Combined Training Team. Tad Coffin got the ride on that mare (Dixie Grey was her name.) She jumped the whole Lexington Bank at Rolex, without landing until the bottom. After that, I believe that Tad asked for someone else to get the ride. 
So, Winding Down, is your memory of the Team riders coming from wealth, from another Era?
[QUOTE=Auburn;8942492]
When Mr. Warner had a mare that was not working out for the SJ Team, he donated her to the Combined Training Team. Tad Coffin got the ride on that mare (Dixie Grey was her name.) She jumped the whole Lexington Bank at Rolex, without landing until the bottom. After that, I believe that Tad asked for someone else to get the ride. [/QUOTE]
I don’t suppose there is a photograph of that jump somewhere? 
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8942242]
Still is as far as I can tell…at all levels and especially the higher ones. If anything, it has gotten DAMN more expensive. As has SJ. I make extremely good money, well within the 1%ers and I’m priced out. Some of the pro riders want eventing to be more like the show world. BUT what many do not understand is THAT world has priced out most 1%ers…there just are not that many people around who have that level of money and they are all basically fighting to make that same buck.
As opposed to what the sport USED to be…mostly non-professional riders at all levels.[/QUOTE]
I know many in my area that certainly don’t fit the 1% model, I don’t, yet we can Event at least to the Training level within a budget. Not every show needs to be a destination event, and schooling (non-Rec) shows helps keep the competition active.
I agree that USEA is pricing Rec shows out of the market and that is not good for this sport. Eventing, in some form for LLRs, starter to Training will soldier on, because there will be a slow shift from official (re: expensive) events that most ammies cannot afford to unofficial events they can.
[QUOTE=JP60;8942634]
I know many in my area that certainly don’t fit the 1% model, I don’t, yet we can Event at least to the Training level within a budget. Not every show needs to be a destination event, and schooling (non-Rec) shows helps keep the competition active.
I agree that USEA is pricing Rec shows out of the market and that is not good for this sport. Eventing, in some form for LLRs, starter to Training will soldier on, because there will be a slow shift from official (re: expensive) events that most ammies cannot afford to unofficial events they can.[/QUOTE]
I was talking about competing at the FEI levels basically needing 1% income. But horses in general are a luxury item. Even at the lower level…if you add up all that you are spending owning a horse, it is more than most people can afford. Not 1% income needed…but most definitely more than 90-95% of what people earn. As a sport…it ranks right up there with some of the most expense (sailing included!).
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8942651]
I was talking about competing at the FEI levels basically needing 1% income. But horses in general are a luxury item. Even at the lower level…if you add up all that you are spending owning a horse, it is more than most people can afford. Not 1% income needed…but most definitely more than 90-95% of what people earn. As a sport…it ranks right up there with some of the most expense (sailing included!).[/QUOTE]
Now that is an interesting study. A quick look from Google and wikipedia we see a great chart that gives an approximation of income levels. If you are in the 1%, we are talking $500K+…nice. I’m looking at the upper middle class, the 15%ers, but more of a cusp baby so I’ve got luxury tastes on the wrong income?
Then I meet folks that are having a blast at local shows, schooling shows and I know they are solid working class…so…as a sport, it ranks where?
Funny you mentions sailing. I’ve seen people pull a wreck out of field, spend elbow grease and parts to get a boat in the water. Mayhap they are not going to finish in the ribbons, but boy howdy, they have a blast trying, and I know they are not vacationing at Martha’s as a rule. (More like Rum and a tent next to lake with their boat).
Eventing need not be a playground for the 1% if those in power understand that even the 30%ers can enjoy owning a horse, romping around three phases if they stop catering to those 50 ULRs, those 1%ers. I’m all for getting the proverbial nose out of the butts of folks like the Mars and instead say, ‘Hey 80-85% of our base, what would you like to do?’ I got my answer ready.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8940731]
If you do not like what is happening in this sport, get off your arses, stop whining about it, and DO something. Is it too scary to take action? Is it easier to go on witch hunts and talk about how horrid our sport has become (since the long format went away)?
Does anyone think that this sort of discussion is doing anyone any good at all?
This is another one of those threads that points fingers, promotes gossip, and generates animosity. If you want to give this sport a bad name, gossiping online is just the way to do it.
Oh CoTH![/QUOTE]
While I understand your frustration (to an extent) I don’t agree with your dismissal of the voicing of opinions on a discussion forum as a case of people “sitting on their arses” doing nothing, nor do I think that your characterization of people’s concerns as “whining” is at all helpful.
While I don’t make judgements about matters that I know nothing about (the opening post of this thread is one such matter) I do have an opinion about matters that I know are factual (Ms. Little’s bloody mouthed horses for example).
Am I not allowed to be interested? Since there is no avenue for me, in my circumstances to “get off my arse and take action” regarding Ms. Little’s bloody mouthed horses, is it wrong for me to voice my opinion? I care about the horses and the sport.
When all I can do at this point in time is read and discuss the situation with COTH members who are interested in the subject, apparently I should either “shut up”, or speak and be considered by you as a gossiping whiner that is “giving the sport a bad name”.
[QUOTE=JP60;8941658]We are not far apart on this so I won’t belabor the point after this. Hand wringing, Kvetching…these are sometimes the nuggets that start the eventual problem solving that can come about. At the end of the day, the sport is a community and by extension, so to this forum. Every community has moments of just … sharing. Sometimes it’s jsut nice to tell or hear a story, a confession or commiseration. WD, either you are a hard heart, which I doubt, of you have to see that life is not all about problem solving, it is first about acknowledging people and who they are, what they think and feel.
I’m not going to solve the problem of ML in our sport, but the next time she brings drama to the sport (and we all know she will), coming here and remarking on her next horrible ride and having others respond not only makes me feel better, but I learn for it means my eye is getting wiser. That’s kvetching to me[/QUOTE]
When TPTB do nothing to in such circumstances it is understandable, and hopefully will always be inevitable, that the the peanut gallery will publicly wonder why.
I haven’t read the thread but IMHO the biggest threats to eventing are the Olympics, FEI and PRO.
I know I’ve spoken out on this same topic here before, but that’s why I’m strongly against the inclusion of more and more prize money in Eventing. Look at the clientele of any A-rated hunter-jumper show … that is who the fees associated with said prize money allow to participate: 1%ers and a few very dedicated upper middle class folks that scrimp and save to be there. Not that I begrudge them having a sport to participate in, but the more eventing heads down that road, I will not be able to continue to participate … guess I’ll just have to be a trail rider.
Of course, the professional riders who have wealthy owners footing the bills for their horses want as much prize money as possible … and unfortunately the sport seems to be heading down that road. Hopefully it’s just a slow progression so I can afford to continue to event for a while still.
A couple of months ago I stumbled on the USEA onimbus archive. It only goes back to 06, but in ten years a lot has changed.
http://useventing.com/competitions/omnibus-archive?year=2006.
Entries have gone up over $100 if not more. Stabling has doubled in places. Half the events are gone, though some replaced them. There are more FEI levels now than ever.
I agree with born free. We get priced out, especially at FEI. I do eventing on a budget. I work hard, I spend everything on my horses. I just want to get to a 2*. Thats all I want to do and somehow I get stuck at the 1* and my horses get sold or they retire. Every time. It is expensive with lessons, event prices, hotels, diesel, upkeep of your horse with chrio and injections.
I want to at least do a 2* before I get priced out.
[QUOTE=skydy;8942756]
Am I not allowed to be interested? Since there is no avenue for me, in my circumstances to “get off my arse and take action” regarding Ms. Little’s bloody mouthed horses, is it wrong for me to voice my opinion? I care about the horses and the sport.
When all I can do at this point in time is read and discuss the situation with COTH members who are interested in the subject, apparently I should either “shut up”, or speak and be considered by you as a gossiping whiner that is “giving the sport a bad name”.
.[/QUOTE]
Did I say anything about Ms. Little’s confirmed bloody mouthed horses?
I am not against discussing confirmed issues of horse abuse. At all. I participated quite a bit on the thread about ML and i found that thread to have a significant impact and hopefully an impact that will help us avoid abuse of horses in the future. What I liked about that thread was that it included pictures of the evidence AND discussion about what measures need to be taken to avoid abuse in the future.
Pointing fingers and making accusations without evidence bothers me a whole lot.
This thread began with claims that someone engaged in horse abuse. No confirmation, and the OP had no first hand account. The “abuser” or “victim” was not named but of course people here investigated and figured out who it was. OP’s claims may or may not be true. Regardless, some piled on the “person of interest,” and some pointed out that it may not be warranted.
That is the sort of thing that I struggle with, and think about.
I also have problems with generalizations about the motives and actions of any group of people, whether that be the ULR, BNR, Christian, Hispanic, or Muslim. We need to wake up and look at the way we talk about and label any group. There have been many posts on this forum about how BNR’s have certain motivations and ill-intent. That makes my skin crawl.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8942979]
Pointing fingers and making accusations without evidence bothers me a whole lot. [/QUOTE]
Which is exactly what you did when you came on this thread telling people to ‘get off your arses, stop whining about it, and DO something.’
What’s worse is that you actually had evidence to the contrary from a thread that you started a couple of months ago. Perhaps if you change your screen name to ‘Cognitive Dissonance’, your posts will make more sense.
It’s puzzling to me why you participate on this board when you seem to have such a persistently negative opinion of eventers who choose to discuss their sport online.
[I]
Originally Posted by Winding Down
Pointing fingers and making accusations without evidence bothers me a whole lot.
[/I]
[QUOTE=JER;8942998]
Which is exactly what you did when you came on this thread telling people to ‘get off your arses, stop whining about it, and DO something.’
What’s worse is that you actually had evidence to the contrary from a thread that you started a couple of months ago. Perhaps if you change your screen name to ‘Cognitive Dissonance’, your posts will make more sense.
It’s puzzling to me why you participate on this board when you seem to have such a persistently negative opinion of eventers who choose to discuss their sport online.[/QUOTE]
I did not label anyone, did I. Let’s get off our arses and do something. And I do not have such a persistently negative opinion of eventers who choose to discuss their sport online. (I envision you now taking a few hours to research this).
Cognitive Dissonance? Really? There was a time, back in the 70s, when we laughed about how you could put that “label” on anyone. But we got over it and went on to more advanced empirical studies.
Why are you so hateful?
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8943002]
Why are you so hateful?[/QUOTE]
There’s nothing hateful in that, just a simple recounting of fact.
You’re making false accusations and criticisms of people on this board, and you continue to do so even when you know those allegations are false.
That’s unfair and it cuts against the spirit of community that this forum fosters.
[QUOTE=JER;8943008]
There’s nothing hateful in that, just a simple recounting of fact.
You’re making false accusations and criticisms of people on this board, and you continue to do so even when you know those allegations are false.
That’s unfair and it cuts against the spirit of community that this forum fosters.[/QUOTE]
And I make no false allegations. You tried that argument previously, and accused me of all sorts of things that were patently false. We finished that conversation.
I have no idea who you. And I am not going to try to find out.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8943021]
I have no idea who you. And I am not going to try to find out.[/QUOTE]
Incoherent passive-aggressive threats always put a smile on my face. 
[QUOTE=FLeventer;8942974]
A couple of months ago I stumbled on the USEA onimbus archive. It only goes back to 06, but in ten years a lot has changed.
http://useventing.com/competitions/omnibus-archive?year=2006.
Entries have gone up over $100 if not more. Stabling has doubled in places. Half the events are gone, though some replaced them. There are more FEI levels now than ever.
I agree with born free. We get priced out, especially at FEI. I do eventing on a budget. I work hard, I spend everything on my horses. I just want to get to a 2*. Thats all I want to do and somehow I get stuck at the 1* and my horses get sold or they retire. Every time. It is expensive with lessons, event prices, hotels, diesel, upkeep of your horse with chrio and injections.
I want to at least do a 2* before I get priced out.[/QUOTE]
We are on the same page and I don’t know what the answer might be. I do know that no one is getting rich in our sport. Not the events, not the USEA, nor the trainers, or owners.
And it goes beyond events to supporting a horse. I pay 2x for a farrier today compared to 15 years ago. Hay has gone from $4 per bale to $7 per bale. Admittedly, today I have a more expensive farrier than I did back then but not by that much. And lesson fees have soared as well.
I could be wrong, but horse prices seem to be consistent. Which means that those who train/sell for a living are making less.
We are priced out.
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