Eventing's Biggest Enemy?

[FLeventer]

@Winding Down;8943031

We are on the same page and I don’t know what the answer might be. I do know that no one is getting rich in our sport. Not the events, not the USEA, nor the trainers, or owners.

I agree with that. I dont blame the owners for selling thier land that used to host events. I dont blame them for getting out of hosting events. I dont blame the drop off of grassroots eventing on anyone because at the end of the day you put in a lot of time, money, and long hard days to run an event.

I worked for two years at an event facility. It was long hours. It was always constant upkeep. It was awesome and I loved it. I understand why event prices went up, but they and everything else are pricing people out.

How can we change this? How do we keep the sport from turning into HJ land? How do we keep it affordable? I understand schooling shows and I use them for all my horses through training level. Even then, they have upped in price.

What are the options? How do we work against the changing tides, that have been moving slowly this way for the past decade? I just cant see eventing going back to the cheaper option it once was.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=FLeventer;8943116]
I agree with that. I dont blame the owners for selling thier land that used to host events. I dont blame them for getting out of hosting events. I dont blame the drop off of grassroots eventing on anyone because at the end of the day you put in a lot of time, money, and long hard days to run an event.

I worked for two years at an event facility. It was long hours. It was always constant upkeep. It was awesome and I loved it. I understand why event prices went up, but they and everything else are pricing people out.

How can we change this? How do we keep the sport from turning into HJ land? How do we keep it affordable? I understand schooling shows and I use them for all my horses through training level. Even then, they have upped in price.

What are the options? How do we work against the changing tides, that have been moving slowly this way for the past decade? I just cant see eventing going back to the cheaper option it once was.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know how we are turning into H/J land other than the fact that our sport is a lot more expensive than it used to be. But we are paying for a lot that we didn’t have. Facilities are nicer, footing is better, safety measures are better, parking, stabling, you name it. You can longer use that old rail fence on the back 40 as a xc jump.

So the options are: event less, do more non-recognized events, build your local eventing organizations to include more events sanctioned through them, and more.

And rearrange your goals for the ULs. Why bother to aspire to a 2* when you can move up to advanced for a fraction of the cost? All you really sacrifice is fewer spectators and course decorations. And you save $thousands. Literally. The entry fees are exorbitant, and you have to be there for 3 days with stabling, hotels, etc.

I never was a fan of the long format for my own horses because I needed them to last a long time. I was unwilling to take the risk. I saw what some of those horses looked like when they were done. There is a reason many had to have 3+ months off after running a 3*.

But I digress. This probably deserves its own thread. How can we make eventing more affordable? Shall I start it or shall you?

[alittlegray]

The littlest thing can go viral, and can make or break a person in less than 24 hours. And unfortunately right or wrong, what gets passed around with a huge headline tends to stick even if the person reading it has no education or experience in the area being discussed, and absolutely no information other than what is laid out along with whatever picture or video gets passed around. As we all know, context is often left out of the equation and it is really easy to gather a crowd of angry villagers.

While there is something to be picked at when someone says “You aren’t an ULR and have no idea what it’s like,” I think what they are trying to say is that each level you move up creates a whole new layer of education and experience driving what you do and how you feel. I doubt anyone here is really trying to shut up the “peons” at the bottom (said by a peon at the bottom), more that just as you wouldn’t expect someone with an entry level camera to school someone who works for Vogue in the photography department, you also may lack what others consider to be important insight when it comes to things you haven’t done before. Yes, the basics of horsemanship and riding are the same no matter the level, but I would also agree it takes a lot more strength, experience and skill to muscle a fit horse around a 4* than it does to ride a lesser animal around beginner. And even a different skill set from horse to horse. That is really all I think people are trying to point out, but it doesn’t come across well and can sound offensive though it isn’t meant to be.

Consider the case of the Irish show jumper who was recently crucified by the angry villagers for galloping his horse to death when he really didn’t. His reputation was ruined in hours, and even though the necropsy showed he did NOT do what he was accused of, the truth will never reach all the people who got the first version and will forever think he is an abuser. If you call up google as of today and type “Irish show jumper” the third result that pops up is “Irish show jumper horse dies” with links to the terrible thing he did. Only he didn’t.

Then consider the case of Elizabeth Mandarino. Yes, I will use her name upfront. Whatever the reason, the woman had a pony drop dead in a public barn aisle at Devon. She fled the scene. She changed her story, then had to change it again after someone showed how many meds the pony was getting every day. She sued several people over the fallout. She created a scene at multiple show venues. She demanded USEF allow her daughter another junior year because she didn’t like the mess SHE created in public. Yet today she is all over the FaceBook pony and horse groups, with plenty of people “liking” every post or pony for sale or whatever. Talk about not holding someone accountable for their proven actions not only in treatment of the horses/ponies at home but also for their behavior at shows and their treatment of other professionals. Poor Humble.

Then while people who have personally observed an “incident” of some sort should have more weight attached to their words than someone who was not there, the human brain and people in general are proven unreliable observers. I’m not saying we can’t trust anyone who saw something happen, I am just saying that we need to keep in mind that when it comes to something that happens fast we aren’t great at remember all the details perfectly and our minds tend to fill in the blanks based on our personal feelings. Of course that is why pictures and video are so important but those things need to come with context and the WHOLE story, not just what got filmed after the confrontation or incident was halfway over…

This is why it does have to rest in the hands of the officials at competitions and the people supplying horses and goods to those at the top of the sport to enforce the rules and/or withdraw their support from people who don’t deserve it. I’ve struggled with that personally for the entire length of my association with horse sport, as I often feel like certain people DO get away with murder, so to speak. However the only thing I can do about it is try and help ensure the people selected to be in charge of these things are people I agree with.

[flyingchange]

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;8942834]
I haven’t read the thread but IMHO the biggest threats to eventing are the Olympics, FEI and PRO.[/QUOTE]

Bingo.

I don’t know what you call this thing now. And I am always puzzled when someone describes a current “eventer” as a “three day event rider.” Unless you are doing a long format, you aren’t doing a “three day event.” You are riding a horse, maybe, over three days (probably two days), but you are not doing a “three day.” That era died in 2004. The ENTIRE point of eventing was the three day with an ENDURANCE day, completed via a,b,c, and d. After doing just one real three day - I finally got it. There is nothing more rewarding than finishing all four phases of XC day and then making a decent showing in SJ the next day. That takes hard work, determination, commitment. Horses were well prepared and got at least three months off afterwards. That’s all gone now.

I guess that’s part of why I feel zero remorse for leaving the sport a few years ago after working and sacrificing pretty much everything to go as far as possible. I just developed a bad taste in my mouth that I have never seemed to be able to kick.

Eventing is its own industry now. The lameness specialization vets, ridiculously-high-priced “boutique” farriers, the prices of lessons (even group lessons - group of four or five people! will set you back $85 to $125 in this area - for the chance to ride with a four star rider or the woff). Last time I checked stabling, it was $70/night at many venues. Most people don’t have that kind of change laying around.

[tbchick84]

Is there any reason the two schools of thought (pros riding for $$ / Suzy Q with her home bred horse who just wants a ribbon and bragging rights) cannot co-exist? I don’t know how the upper levels work, but at the lower, every division is the same entry fee. What if they let the pros have their big money division complete with a sky high entry fee, and leave the amateur division in reach of, well, amateurs?

[Highflyer]

Most of the costs today go toward running the event. It’s just very, very expensive to put on an UL event. Jumps are more expensive to build and maintain, officials need to be trained and paid, footing needs to be maintained, stalls need to be rented etc. All of those things are the same regardless. There aren’t really corners that can be cut for amateurs, other than ribbons/ prizes (and often prizes are donated.)

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=tbchick84;8944450]
Is there any reason the two schools of thought (pros riding for $$ / Suzy Q with her home bred horse who just wants a ribbon and bragging rights) cannot co-exist? I don’t know how the upper levels work, but at the lower, every division is the same entry fee. What if they let the pros have their big money division complete with a sky high entry fee, and leave the amateur division in reach of, well, amateurs?[/QUOTE]

Well, unfortunately you can’t have a division for “well funded on imported horses” and “the rest of us.”

I am actually stepping out of eventing because level creep combined with the increasig popularity means that, as an amateur adult, I am likely to be competing against a well heeled amateur riding full time with a professional/ has a horse in full training.

Am I likely to encounter that going back to the hunters? Sure. But there are whole, highly developed, local circuits where the poor rest of us can go hang out and have fun for $20 a class and maybe a big ribbon at the final, and those people don’t tend to attend, or if they do, they don’t make a career out of it. That doesn’t exist in eventing at all. And every time you go in the ring everyone is starting from zero in the quest for the day’s championship. To me, that’s become more fun.

[tbchick84]

[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8944517]

Am I likely to encounter that going back to the hunters? Sure. But there are whole, highly developed, local circuits where the poor rest of us can go hang out and have fun for $20 a class and maybe a big ribbon at the final, and those people don’t tend to attend, or if they do, they don’t make a career out of it. That doesn’t exist in eventing at all. And every time you go in the ring everyone is starting from zero in the quest for the day’s championship. To me, that’s become more fun.[/QUOTE]

I hear ya. Luckily Area 1 is growing leaps and bounds in a schooling show series complete with a point system and year and championships for about half the cost of recognized. The courses are nice enough for my level, so that’s where I’m heading until I see this thing start to turn in the right direction.

[Sticky_Situation]

But with an increasing recognized/unrecognized divide, where does that leave riders like me … amateurs with limited budgets who have no plans to go to Rolex or make The Team, but who do want to compete at Prelim or above?

Unrecognized events don’t go above Training, and some don’t even offer that. They’re fun, and great for those starting out or green horses, but there is a middle ground between “Pro with a huge string of upper level horses and wealthy owners” and “Ammy who is satisfied puttering around BN indefinitely.” The more prize money eventing gets, the more that middle ground will be limited to only the very wealthy.

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8944578]
But with an increasing recognized/unrecognized divide, where does that leave riders like me … amateurs with limited budgets who have no plans to go to Rolex or make The Team, but who do want to compete at Prelim or above?

Unrecognized events don’t go above Training, and some don’t even offer that. They’re fun, and great for those starting out or green horses, but there is a middle ground between “Pro with a huge string of upper level horses and wealthy owners” and “Ammy who is satisfied puttering around BN indefinitely.” The more prize money eventing gets, the more that middle ground will be limited to only the very wealthy.[/QUOTE]

Well, there comes a point where the cost of equipment and facilities to support a level of competition exceeds the financial resources of those offering schooling-level competition. If I have a horse capable of the 1.40m jumpers and I want to compete in them, I am looking at rated shows and their associated costs. If I have a 4th level dressage horse, my opportunities for schooling shows in front of judges qualified to that level are going to be very limited. It’s the nature of the beast.

The reality is that there are a whole lot more horses and riders who are going to top out at Novice due to physical, menta, financial, time, or other reasons, then there will be people who want to pay money to show unrecognized at prelim/1*. Dressage is really the only place you see local level circuits offering upper levels, and I 100% believe that is because it requires very little to no additional investment on the part of the shows, which is not true for prelim eventing.

[Sticky_Situation]

I don’t expect unrecognized events to start offering Prelim and up. I just don’t want to see recognized events continue to become more and more expensive to the point that I can no longer afford them at all due to large amounts of added prize money.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8944730]
I don’t expect unrecognized events to start offering Prelim and up. I just don’t want to see recognized events continue to become more and more expensive to the point that I can no longer afford them at all due to large amounts of added prize money.[/QUOTE]

Are we sure that entry fees would go up a lot if there was prize money? Probably so, but what would the the % increase for a given event if they offered prize money at a modest amount. For example, if prize money for a division were to equal two entry fees, and the total entries for that division exceeds 50… well, it may not be that hard on our individual pocket books.

Total prize money may be equal to one xc jump, for example.

I have not thought through my opinion on prize money so I have no dog in this fight. It would be nifty to get some $$ back now and then and it’d help those of us who put ourselves on a budget for competing.

I believe that when prize money is won, it goes to the owner of the horse and not to the rider. So for the average adult amateur, it would go in the rider’s pocket.

[ozjb]

“So for the average adult amateur, it would go in the rider’s pocket.”

This made me giggle. Not sure how things are run in the US, but here, the average adult amateur is competing against the pros. Every now and then an amateur will win a class. Not too often though. Usually the place getters are the pros.

I think prize money could be made up from the sponsors of each class, not the entry fees. That is what happens here, at least partially.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8944752]
Are we sure that entry fees would go up a lot if there was prize money? Probably so, but what would the the % increase for a given event if they offered prize money at a modest amount. For example, if prize money for a division were to equal two entry fees, and the total entries for that division exceeds 50… well, it may not be that hard on our individual pocket books.

Total prize money may be equal to one xc jump, for example.

I have not thought through my opinion on prize money so I have no dog in this fight. It would be nifty to get some $$ back now and then and it’d help those of us who put ourselves on a budget for competing.

I believe that when prize money is won, it goes to the owner of the horse and not to the rider. So for the average adult amateur, it would go in the rider’s pocket.[/QUOTE]

Honest question, Winding Down, do you have any experience with the US h/j industry? Because prize money only drives up the cost of entry for everyone so that a couple of people, who are the same people at almost every show, can make back their entry fees in prize money. It’s dumb and stupidly hopeful to support prize money unless you know that you will be the best rider on the best horse. Otherwise you are just voluntarily subsidizing other people’s show experience.

ETA if you thing people whine too much now about the composition and size of divisions, just wait until it’s more than a $1.50 ribbon at stake.

[OTTB2]

[QUOTE=NCRider;8944912]
Honest question, Winding Down, do you have any experience with the US h/j industry? Because prize money only drives up the cost of entry for everyone so that a couple of people, who are the same people at almost every show, can make back their entry fees in prize money. It’s dumb and stupidly hopeful to support prize money unless you know that you will be the best rider on the best horse. Otherwise you are just voluntarily subsidizing other people’s show experience.

ETA if you thing people whine too much now about the composition and size of divisions, just wait until it’s more than a $1.50 ribbon at stake.[/QUOTE]

This point is very good however, coming from a eventer gone horse-shower (due to lack of eventing in my area) There is barley any prize money in the hunters besides the int derby’s, even the AA hunter classes its not that much. Its hard to justify large sums of money to be awarded based solely on opinion. Point being a clock and rails either standing or falling is a lot easier to award money to then who is the prettiest. (this is coming from someone who floats between both rings based on my horses mood that day)

[ccr0009]

Just food for thought. Let’s think outside of the box. Let’s just say you’re a consultant, hired by USEA who wants to maximize profit, and they’re a SMO (sustainable management organization) This means they want to think long-term staying in business and care about all stake-holders. Our stakeholders? amateur riders, juniors, professionals, family members, show organizers, companies that produce products riders need, and most importantly the horses.

While as a business you want to be efficient with your spending, long-term you don’t sustain yourself by pinching all costs. So cutting costs aren’t a viable option. (I’ll cut this paragraph off, just believe me.)

The other side is increasing revenues. Now we’re an SMO, and SMO’s believe that increasing revenues is only as important as maximizing stakeholder “happiness/agreeableness”. To sustain: happy stakeholders. As a consultant, this person wants to encourage US eventing to make smart decisions today, that provide future cash flows. I have to figure out first what I need my future cash flows to be to sustain this organization, then discount them back to decide what those future cash flows are worth today.

I may for example see to sustain, I want entry fees to be this low for happy riders, but increase costs to provide these amenities for happy horses. So I need X # of dollars. Discount that back to today figuring the amount of risk involved plus the time it takes for an investment to create that cash flow and I can decide what investment I make.

What investment/cost can this organization make today, that can over the long-term sustain this sport. I don’t believe either supporting a specific UL rider who can’t be named’s NOR decreasing entry fees immediately are sustainable investment decisions.

You must find a secondary source of revenue outside of your current ones. (is what this un-biased consultant may or may not say.) If you fail to do so, there is risk that a group of stake-holders will fall short. If you lose any viable stakeholder you’re not looking that sustainable. You lose the riders or pros and thats some decreased cash-flows. You lose the horses? Let’s not even think about that.

Find a secondary source of revenue.

(But, remember, we need to keep our current stakeholders happy and safe to also remain sustainable, so the sport itself may not find its best interest to evolve its roots, and new revenue brings in new stakeholders that do need their own return)

So, my little contribution and input would be if an organizer wanted a gung-ho young adult to try and pull together outside spectators, I’d give my time for that? i went on this tangent on another thread. I’ve got to stop writing late at night and using the account with my name on it.

[FitToBeTied]

One thing that is driving costs up in eventing is the increased number of divisions. Back in the day when I started eventing, it was typically one division at each level. They may have split it into A,B, C etc. to make numbers more manageable but that was it. There were no amateur divisions, horse divisions, etc.

Go back to that.

Or get rid of prize money all together and make the Pro’s do what professionals in other sports do - form their own league. Then they can do whatever they want for prize money, advertisers, etc.

I can’t imagine the NFL trying to run pee-wee football or MLB trying to run the amateur youth sports or weekend softball leagues.

[WB_Mom]

So, where are all these unrecognized events? I only know of one in our area per year.

[Janet]

@FitToBeTied;8945078

One thing that is driving costs up in eventing is the increased number of divisions. Back in the day when I started eventing, it was typically one division at each level. They may have split it into A,B, C etc. to make numbers more manageable but that was it. There were no amateur divisions, horse divisions, etc.

Go back to that.

I am not sure I understand how Rider/Horse/Amateur/Open costs any more than A/B/C/D.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=ccr0009;8945010]

So, my little contribution and input would be if an organizer wanted a gung-ho young adult to try and pull together outside spectators, I’d give my time for that? i went on this tangent on another thread. I’ve got to stop writing late at night and using the account with my name on it. :/[/QUOTE]

I appreciate this post and the others.

Do people want to sit out and watch eventing in this country? At the lower levels? We tend to draw spectators at the FEI events. But at the local level, not so much. It may have less to do with our promoting the sport and more to do with it being boring to watch. Setting up a tailgate next to the 11th fence on the beginner novice course, where the entire division will likely canter through with perhaps a whoop or holler, may not be enticing.

Rolex is popular. Fair Hill is popular. There is a lot to do and see. Not so at the local lower levels.