Everything to know about Kissing Spine, please!

[Lunabear1988]

Oh I wonder if the difference I got from mesotherapy pricing was due to different vet practices using different stuff to inject? Since you are in the same area, would you mind pming me what you normally pay for it? I just want to know what to expect. If not, I understand!

I will hold on shockwave for now. Glad to know we can use the roboxin for awhile. Do you know if there’s any side effects I should look out for?

Sounds like I definitely need to be a bit more assertive in my rehab, so I will step it up a bit. Thank you!!

[IPEsq]

Hmm it was several years ago now from CSU, so I don’t think I have the bill anymore nor would it be current.

Some horses get a little extra quiet/lazy on a high dose of Robaxin, but there aren’t many side effects. One of my horses felt a little less coordinated, and I hadn’t experienced that before (with lots of horses over lots of years using it from time to time). But it was right away. My red horse has lived on it through his rehab (although the dose has varied some) without issues.

[Obsidian_Fire]

You may need to experiment a bit with the Robaxin to determine the ‘sweet spot’ amount to give. My mare gets 10 of the 750 mg pills, at night, because I ride in the morning.

[JB]

Re: BOT pads - years ago I found that putting a BoT sheet on my big WB first thing in the morning when he came in for breakfast, and leaving it on as long as possible while I groomed, then using a BoT saddle pad, he was happier to get into more work on cool and cold mornings which is when I always rode. I stopped the sheet when that morning time made him sweat before I even got him out to groom.

[fivestrideline]

Has anyone tried a straight-up heated blanket in the winter? Rather than waiting for BoT? They make battery operated ones (aka no cords) that don’t get too hot. I’m so cold natured I have a million at home .

I’m debating trying a heated throw + BoT quarter sheet (which I have) and saddle pad (looking at the Matilda). I don’t have time to stand around waiting for the BoT blanket to “work”, and the turnouts don’t fit my horse at all.

[cayuse]

This is a good idea! How long do the batteries last?

[fivestrideline]

For home use - ages. Like at least a year. I’d imagine being kept in the (colder, dustier) barn might have an effect on the batteries. They do make USB rechargeable ones that you can just plug in as needed though!

[outerbanks77]

I have an Equilibrium back pad, and in addition to the massage, it probably warms the horse up pretty well because it’s fairly thick and vinyl-covered. It doesn’t cover the haunches though.

OP, one thing I haven’t seen mentioned yet is kinesiotaping. It’s not too expensive if you do it yourself and may be supportive. There are YouTube videos to follow. I’ve found the Vetkin tape works just fine, and is less expensive (Amazon, or findtape.com is good if you’re ordering larger quantities).

How to Apply Kinesiology Tape to Help a Horse With A Sore Back — Equalign

[Lunabear1988]

I’ve been thinking about that too actually. I would think that it would work great as long as it doesn’t get too hot. Maybe put the heating pad on top of another pad just in case… I might try that too!

[Lunabear1988]

That’s a good idea and maybe I can ask my body worker about it. Maybe she could show me… We haven’t done it on him but they might know how to do it.

[fivestrideline]

I find KT tape interesting but not hyper effective for much more than proprioception. However, heat is proven to work (and I use it ALL THE TIME boy it helps) so I lean that way.

That said my bodyworker puts KT tape on and it might do something but the massage itself is more clearly effective IMO. YMMV

[Lunabear1988]

Regarding the robaxin, mentally he doesn’t seem chilled out or lazy at all. If anything he’s more forward-moving and kind of wild lol. One thing that I did swear I noticed was that I thought he was losing his stifle a bit more on it. So maybe there is a little bit of incoordination with it. He’s currently on 15 of the 750 mg pills. Maybe we could bump that down a little and still see a positive effect when it comes time to ride him.

Or we could try equioxx but not sure how effective that is for back pain and if course that comes with a risk of ulcers.

[beowulf]

Once KS is clinically diagnosable (remodeling on x-ray) there is no way to reverse it. I’m skeptic of the claims (especially in that FB group) of ‘reversing’ KS. If there is radiographic findings such as changes to the joint[s] and spaces, those are there to stay. You can address symptomatic presence, but you will never reverse the remodeling.

Make sure that you take multiple x-rays of the spine. The way the horse is standing can change views, so it’s best (imo) to have a very experienced vet take the x-rays, and also consider having different vets take them (ie at a clinic) at different points in the horse’s career. Having a yearly x-ray baseline isn’t a bad idea, to track remodeling.

The FB group is a good resource for general knowledge. This will come across as overly myopic but, keep the success of those posts with a big grain of salt. Many members of that group do not have a good eye for soundness.

There is no one size fits all treatment for KS. Some need surgery. Some need management changes. About all of them do benefit from 24/7 turnout, though.

I’ve posted a lot about my KS journey with my current horse. I did not do the bone shave surgery; I really feel, after watching friends go through this with their personal horses, that this is additional trauma on an already painful site – and I haven’t seen long term (3+ year) success from it. The horses still look as lame to me before surgery as they do after. Some people report success and that is great for them.

What has worked best for my current KS horse is 24/7 turnout, ruthlessly staying on top of his hoof angles, and yearly meso. He will never be 100% happy in his body, but he is servicably sound with these therapies, and my vet feels his workload is appropriate. I can’t help but wonder what he would be like without the KS; he is such a generous horse, so I watch him like a hawk to know when and if it is time to back off.

I do expect as he gets older, that he will need more assistance in other areas of his body like his hocks and neck. KS does profoundly affect these areas.

[fivestrideline]

Here are my horse’s X-rays, not super recent but still. Just like @beowulf said, there will be no “reversing” this - just management. Some horses can be 100% sound with KS, others need help. I’m doing some work to see how comfortable I can get him, but we will back off the moment he says it’s too much. The struggle is this horse acts like his leg fell off if he gets a scrape, so it’s a spectrum

[outerbanks77]

@fivestrideline

I find KT tape interesting but not hyper effective for much more than proprioception. However, heat is proven to work (and I use it ALL THE TIME boy it helps) so I lean that way.

That said my bodyworker puts KT tape on and it might do something but the massage itself is more clearly effective IMO. YMMV

Yes, I don’t think it’s a standalone for most things. But I do use it on myself when my back is sore and it helps quite a bit (recognizing that my muscles are much smaller than a horse’s). My mare that tends towards being tight in her body loves it. Like she starts licking and chewing when she sees me cutting the tape, and she’ll often start yawning when the tape is applied. I think the thing about it is that it has a more prolonged effect since the tape can stay on for several days.

[Lunabear1988]

I have a question that’s probably incredibly stupid, so forgive me. By “remodeling” do you mean inflammation where the vertebrae touch? Or do you mean the vertebrae touching in itself is the remodeling?

I definitely will get back x-rays again later in the year, maybe at CSU.

There is a few horses at the barn that have kissing spine. One had the ligament snip and bone shave in 2019 and they say he is doing well. He looks sound to me but honestly I don’t pay much attention unless I see an obviously lame horse (there is just no point, I don’t own the horse and can’t help either way.) I’ll have to watch him more closely.

I definitely would like to avoid surgery if possible. My horse only has one spot affected so hopefully we can get him comfortable.

He’s lost a lot of muscle so that is a priority as well as the comfort!

[fivestrideline]

@Lunabear1988

By “remodeling” do you mean inflammation where the vertebrae touch?

You can look at my X-rays above - the whiter/brighter areas at the top of the vertebrae are examples of remodeling as I understand it. That and the places where it looks “thinner” or whatever, due to bone loss?? I’m no vet so I’m just going off what I was told

[Lunabear1988]

That’s what I was thinking. I don’t currently have my x-rays on hand but my vet did not see any remodeling or any “white spots” yet on my horse’s x-rays. That is part of why she said she thought we might be able to get away without surgery…

[Obsidian_Fire]

@beowulf

Once KS is clinically diagnosable (remodeling on x-ray) there is no way to reverse it. I’m skeptic of the claims (especially in that FB group) of ‘reversing’ KS. If there is radiographic findings such as changes to the joint[s] and spaces, those are there to stay. You can address symptomatic presence, but you will never reverse the remodeling.

Thank you a million times over for saying this. You cannot cure KS, only manage it. Even surgery is NOT a cure.
OP, it’s a lifetime of management. Everything beowulf is telling you, is exactly what I do with my mare too.
It’s a lot. It is tiring. It is expensive. It is disheartening.

You asked about bone remodeling. If you look at the films that were posted, you can see spots where the white is very concentrated - almost like somebody colored it all the way in. Those are called “remodeling” spots, and those are the spots where the bone has made contact with something that irritated it. In this case, another spinous process. In an effort to “fix” the irritation, the body sends more bone cells to the area, hence the white spots.
Not the worlds greatest explanation but I hope that helps.

[IPEsq]

The white spots = bone edema from repetitive trauma. That is not the same as bone remodeling (bone metabolism) which could show things like bone resorption (as with pedal osteitis cases) or bone callus formation (such as following a fracture when new bone is laid down).

My red horse is super allergic to the adhesives on kinesio tape fyi (of course he is). We tried taping following his scapula fracture and his skin looked gnarly the next day with all sorts of hives and edema pockets, and eventually a fair amount of hair fell out.