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Explosive/random bucking and rearing, ran me over

Horse Care
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#21

@danacat in theory, yes. But the context of the advice given above is:

  • the horse has demonstrated behavior that makes it dangerous for the current owner and her more experienced friend to ride him or continue his undersaddle training on their own. (This doesn't mean he's rogue or deliberately trying to hurt anyone)
  • an unbroke 10yr is not an easy project even for a pro-- this would not be a cheap training effort.
  • getting a pro just get him started is not going to be enough to make him a steady eddy packer; incredibly slim odds (nonexistent, in most of our experiences) that this horse will ever be a simple ride
  • We know that the horse's owner is not working under the guidance of a trainer and we can read between the lines that she is not the kind of experienced/advanced rider that this horse will need
It's a crappy situation for all involved. No fault no blame-- the owner has a horse she cares for but that is not going to be a useful or safe riding horse for her. So it's just time to find the best solution and offer candid advice. In my opinion, investing in training this horse is throwing good money after bad, and I'd recommend retire him and the HO can part-lease a riding horse. And if the HO does not have the means to keep this horse until he gets old and wants to "rehome", I'd rather see him euthanized because there is absolutely no way he will end up in a quality situation.
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#22

I’m hesitant at this stage to say the horse is genuinely dangerous because I have seen so many inexperienced people make a mess of green horses that don’t give more experienced people any problems. The owner/ground person here sounds like they don’t know much at all, and the OP/rider doesn’t have a real understanding of the progression for starting horses, or much experience other than restarting one OTTB for personal use.

The horse may be dangerous, but I would still want to have a professional trainer evaluate first before making that call.

9 Likes
#23

I’d cut my losses on this one. It sounds like a pain-filled engagement all the way around.

Either you weren’t experienced enough to read the horse OR the horse truly is a rogue. Horses generally give serious indications of the ability to go on a bucking spree, and if they don’t, it means they’ve got a wire loose (in general). I sold one on (with full disclosure) when launching me through the air was the reward for asking him to go forward when he didn’t want to and there was literally zero other warning. Slight balk, kick to go forward, on the ground. Noooooo thank you.

If there is one thing I’ve learned in 30 years of horsemanship it’s that you’re going to pay. You’re either going to pay up front for a wonderful horse or you’ll pay over time with a troubled horse, but you’re going to pay quite a bit of money one way or the other.

The bonus of the troubled horse payment plan is that you stand to get bones and hearts broken.

5 Likes
#24

I will agree that the horse should have been treated like it was unbroken. I agree that it does not sound like he was being lunged properly and was not long reined.

Not lunging properly with an Otttb means a fit horse who wants to play. This is not good for the rider.

Getting on with no reins. The biggest mistake of all.

Everyone seems to be glossing over the fact that you said he is cold backed. Cold backed means something different for every horse.

My boy it means ro warm him up to the saddle and back before asking him forward or he will rodeo buck. Once he is walking while being led. I can mount but he can’t do any work until he has been warmed up for half an hour.

But oh boy once warmed up he is WOW to ride.

My instructor- the horse can be lunged beforehand or not the result is the same. For the first 15 seconds after mounting he feels like he is going to explode. After that he is fine. So no beginner can be put on him.

3 Likes
#25

Obviously wasn’t there, but these are my thoughts after reading the OP:

  1. Got on a green OTTB with no reins. Not a good plan. Makes me question the skill of everyone involved if both the rider and the ground person thought this was okay/safe.

  2. OP seems to admit there was jostling on her part when the horse picked up the trot. Again, none of us reading this were there, but you could have been moving a lot more than you want to admit. Banging a green OTTB just starting back undersaddle with your leg could have resulted in a bucking fit.

  3. Since you had no reins (see 1) you were a sitting duck. Yes, you should not be balancing on them, but they reins are your best means of control if the horse suddenly explodes. You may not have come off so easily if you had them, because you would have had something to help you get the horse under control instead of bailing.

  4. You say the horse is cold-backed. Red flag that there is a saddle fitting problem or the horse wasn’t sufficiently warmed up before you got on and was reacting to that. It wasn’t a safe reaction, and is probably an over-reaction, but may not be the horse’s fault.

  5. I don’t think you can blame the horse for stepping on you, and certainly not suggesting it was perhaps done on purpose. To be a broken record, we weren’t there, but you could have fallen/bailed out into the horse’s direct path. That would not be the fault of the horse if they clomped you. Most horses don’t like stepping on foreign objects unless they have to. Especially as this horse was on the lunge–the horse had a limited space to work with, since the person on the ground was still keeping them within a lunge-line distance of themselves and maybe you.

Look, I made this mistake once–I was the person on the ground and the person getting on the OTTB had no business being there. I tried to talk them out of it and I should have refused to participate. In my situation the horse flipped over and panicked and was pulling against the lunge line while I desperately tried to get the horse to stop backing up, as they were inadvertently stepping on the fallen rider every time they did. I learned the hard way that you don’t lunge a green, unpredictable horse when re-introducing them to a rider. If I had that horse on a lead shank I believe the result would have been different. I would have had more control and could have intercepted sooner rather than being on the end of a pretty useless lunge line. (Oh, and the rider did have her reins in my situation as well.)

Overall I think the horse in this case deserves a chance but needs to be with a professional. I used to work with a Thoroughbred program that placed horses coming off the track in foster homes. A lot of them had physical issues or some other reason they were going through the program instead of being sold privately. A lot of those horses needed professional training, which the program wasn’t willing to pay for. It was a mess and I eventually got out of dealing with them. My situation (above) was a direct result of one of those program horses. It’s too bad, but it sounds like unless there is the money, time, and patience for professional training, this simply may be a really bad match of horse to rider.

4 Likes
#26

Realize it’s quite a bit easier to blame this bad behavior on something like ulcers or kissing spine then to admit the truth. The horse has never been trained, it’s not even really broke at all and what happened on the lunge line was very predictable. Horse has lived half its expected life span without ever being broke properly and has stood idle for years. OP and friend have no experience with untrained, older horses. Why would you expect it do go differently then it did?

Sorry but breaking horses is not something that can be learned by watching videos or on the internet. Especially older horses that others have tried to break but never finished. Getting on this one with no reins was…not a wise choice. Not that the horse understands the rein aids or anything, he doesn’t know and leading him or lunging won’t teach him. You need to ride one to train it and more then a few times a week,

Wrong horse for this friend. Lucky nobody was hurt.

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#27

Didn’t read all the responses but if he is in MSM take him off. Research it, it can cause REAL mood swings. Happened to my lovely OTTB. Back to normal a week or so after I took him off of it.

1 Like
#28

It sounds like this horse does not understand go and whoa, does not accept contact, and has no respect for personal boundaries. It then results in blind panic mode when he exploded. Long story short, you need a very good horseman to start this horse. A horse can act pretty broke (walk over tarp, water, rope slinging overhead) when he is actually going internal, and does not understand or accept anything. This kind of horses is extremely dangerous, as he will explode unexpectedly, like you experienced, when he has had “enough.”

Also, you may want to consider seriously whether you want to volunteer to ride other people’s rescues for free. Those pros can make it look easy. They are also getting paid for taking the risks.

3 Likes
#29

I could have written almost this exact story nearly 20 years ago. The best decision I ever made was to send the horse back. I had him for a year. I persisted way longer than I should have and nothing short of dumb luck kept me from getting seriously injured. Send him back to the rescue and get one that isn’t a nutcase. Nutty isn’t a universal thoroughbred trait. I can put my 3 year old up on my OTTB mare after not riding for a month and she’ll babysit her.

The end of my story is that I turned around and bought a 2 year old paint who never put a foot wrong and we lived happily ever after.

Life is too short to deal with dangerous horses.

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#30

Why did he explode?

  1. He’s green, and that’s a natural reaction for some horses when they are unsure of themselves and are being overfaced/underprepared
  2. ulcers
  3. kissing spine

If your friend is in for the long-haul and actually understands what starting a 10 year old with a questionable past could mean - book a good lameness vet for a lameness exam, back x-rays, and a gastroscope.

If all comes back ok, start looking around for a professional who deals with the difficult ones, and sign up for a minimum 6 month stint to get the horse started.

3 Likes
#31

I ran into the same thing once. I’m not a pro trainer, but have rescued, rehabbed, and placed horses in jobs as my “give-back” to horsedom. One particular gorgeous guy launched me hard, fast, and dirty. (Later found out the back-story, but that’s another story…)

Back to square one. Over a year of full vet workup, groundwork, in-hand, lunging, ground-driving, working with pro trainers, you-name-it. Finally felt he was soft, good-brained, and prepared. Put me down hard again.

I couldn’t ethically give this horse away and couldn’t afford to feed him as a pasture ornament until his natural death, so I euthanized. I don’t regret it; he could have killed someone.

3 Likes
#32

Horses learn and never forget. This is why when working with young horses you want knowing hands as it is criminally easy to teach a horse the wrong thing. Ask me how I know.

So what you have here is a fully mature horse knowing lots of bad things, few good things, and in the hands of a person of limited skill and experience. Is this an textbook presentation of “green on green means red on brown” or what??? :frowning:

The kind of work up and training being suggested, here, is going to cost thousands of dollars, take many months, and has a less that outstanding chance for success. And if you succeed you’re going to have a horse worth barely more than its carcass weight. Rationality says end this before you spend lots of money on a futile project and/or a very large medical bill.

G.

3 Likes
#33

No harm meant in stating this, but if you are the more experienced hand and you got on an unknown variable in an open space with a relative green bean holding the lunge line clipped to a rope halter, neither of you is in any position to make any sort of educated decisions about this horse.

HIRE HELP, folks. HIRE someone with actual experience and see what they say.

11 Likes
#34

Used to restart horses from the track. Most have pelvis problems, can also be sternum which will be affected by girth. That said, you need someone with vastly more experience to deal with this horse as most vets will not be able to locate the actual issue without a nuclear scan, same goes for most “therapy” type folks.

1 Like
#35

Have your friend be honest with herself.

WHAT IS HER GOALS WITH THIS HORSE?

Does she want him for a riding horse for herself? If that is what she wants, then I would say she either needs to (1) sell him and get something different (2) send him to a professional trainer that know what they are doing for a good YEAR.

Those two sentences don’t really seem to go together. And even you question if he is “sound”.

IF your friend is thinking about continuing this journey, then I would take him to a good lameness specialist and have a thorough lameness evaluation. Based on your description, this has not been done.

Now, he might not be in pain. He might be 100% fine and just have a natural bad attitude that’s not cut out for a riding horse. It’s few and far between that that happens but it DOES happen. Some horses just aren’t worth the time of day.

I’ve only had one of those horses in my lifetime, and it’s wasn’t “mine” but a 3-year-old I trained for my neighbor. She had an out-to-get-you attitude from day one. I put 60 days on her and had her going really nice but I told my neighbor to sell her. She took her home, got bucked off on the first ride at home, and then followed my advice. That horse was just not worth it for anyone.

So he’s had 4 months of ground work and he doesn’t know that when you apply pressure on (for example) his hindquarters, he’s supposed to move them over?? Doesn’t sound like his ground work was entirely effective.

The horse should be given all the tools on the ground first that carries over to riding. He should know how to move all his body parts in response to pressure. Sure, might take them a few minutes to make the connection now that the rider is in the saddle, but those cues should already be there. Or the horse is not ready to be mounted.

I do not get on a horse until the steering (reins and legs) and the brakes (reins) are fully operational and working. If I have someone assist those first few rides, such as on the lunge line, I still always have a bridle and reins. I need to have control. You’re just asking for an accident like this, otherwise.

5 Likes
#36

I just have to say that in the situation the OP was in I do not fault her for bailing. I’ve been on a horse who when it couldn’t get me off by bucking; the horse went up and over backwards. It might not have escalated to that point if I’d gotten dumped earlier. Now, don’t get me started about the previous ‘trainer’ who would get off at the first threat and lunge him.

As many others have said there is a reason he hasn’t been working under saddle. There are some horses that are just not going to be rideable. There are many out there that are. I would have no problem euthanizing this one unless someone can afford to make him a pasture ornament for the next few decades.

We already have the story(s) of someone else getting seriously hurt trying to fix a horse such as this.

1 Like
#37

Those who say euthanize…an untrained pasture ornament who makes a couple of wrong steps and hasn’t been evaluated by a trainer AND has been sane with ground training, and kill the poor horse? Yeah no.

Have him evaluated.

4 Likes
#38

I’m in agreement with others who have said I would hesitate to paint this horse in a bad light just yet. He was not set up very well for success, from the sounds of it.

When I start or re-start ANY horse, the first place I get on them? A stall. I have zero interest in "Forward’ those first few times. I want to know they will tolerate me getting up and down on their back, sitting on them, rubbing on them, etc. I want to work first and foremost on lateral flexion so I know when I pick up on the rope halter/lead-rope or the rein, depending on what I’m using, that the horse knows to soften to me. Then I’m going to take that softening right into moving the hindquarters over. The instant association is that “when I pick up this rein, you soften to me and yield your inside hind leg”.

That would have been a pretty darn handy thing to have going for you in that moment.

I am also REALLY not a fan of having someone on the ground to “babysit” on the long line while re-starting a horse. Your encounter is an excellent example of why: the horse was put into a position where you literally were a passenger, and you enforced this by allowing him to receive all his cues from the ground handler. You meant nothing to him up there, and you were not in a position to bend him or move him because he’s attached to a long line held by another person. In short, you put yourself and the horse in a position where you lowered the importance and value of the person sitting on him.

It is completely reasonable to wonder if he acted out of pain if he’s known to have a cold back, however…it does not appear your methods set him up for success, either.

2 Likes
#39

Update for anyone listening, this horse had cervical arthritis in c6 and C7, which got treated with injections, then did a round of pulse signal therapy on his neck, as of last week he is happy and being regularly ridden (flat and trails) without pain or issues. ❤️

11 Likes
#40

That’s a great point thank
you

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