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Fair pay for mucking stalls ???

Hunter/Jumper
#41

As far as getting what you pay for , I would look to Washington and ask "are we getting what we pay for " pay does not always guarantee good results.

So this is your lousy excuse not to pay your staff what they’re worth?

If you want good help that stays, be prepared to pay for it.

If we could hire One person for the job we would pay $12-$14.00 per hour , BUT they aren’t reliable enough , which is why we use TWO … One experienced person could do the whole job in 8 hours or less and do it well , just can’t find anyone who is reliable enough to show up everyday

If you’re hiring one person per day for 8 hours at your “high end,” you’re looking at a salary of under $30K annually for full time work. For manual, backbreaking work. Unless you’re in a very low COL area of the country, this isn’t enough to make ends meet. And naturally, most barn managers balks at providing any kind of health insurance, worker’s comp, or other perks that make the job worthwhile.

OK, so you get two. You pay them $10 an hour for 4 hours of work each. A whole $40. Honestly, half the time that’s not worth the gas it costs running around a rural area to get to the barn.

This is the consistent conundrum for barns. They want someone reliable. They want someone who is capable of handling horses. They want someone who shows up on time. They want someone to work at least an 8 hour day. The conditions are usually substandard, and the employers are frequently lunatics just by virtue of being horse people.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard the frustrated barn manager whine “BUT THEY GET TO WORK WITH HORSES!!!”

No, they get to shovel $hit. Let’s please be realistic here.

What, exactly, is the room for advancement in this position and why should they want to continue to work in your employ?

1 Like
#42

[QUOTE=Trixie;7251686]

This is the consistent conundrum for barns. They want someone reliable. They want someone who is capable of handling horses. They want someone who shows up on time. They want someone to work at least an 8 hour day. The conditions are usually substandard, and the employers are frequently lunatics just by virtue of being horse people.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard the frustrated barn manager whine “BUT THEY GET TO WORK WITH HORSES!!!”

No, they get to shovel $hit. Let’s please be realistic here.

What, exactly, is the room for advancement in this position and why should they want to continue to work in your employ?[/QUOTE]

THIS x 1,000,000,000
Not just directed towards the OP, but it’s what I’ve seen in almost every single barn I’ve ever been around. And people end up paying big $$$ for board in barns where their horses are cared for by unpaid 13-year-old kids who are “working off their lessons.” And we wonder why that rarely ends well…:confused:

1 Like
#43

[QUOTE=Deedot;7251568]
Perhaps it isn’t your pay rate that is the problem, but your attitude towards your employees/potential employees that is the problem?[/QUOTE]

Bingo. Money is certainly a part of the equation but how one is treated is also a big piece. When it is clear that you are not valued or are treated like inferiors, it takes an awful lot of money to stuff the resentment and keep coming to work. In fact, I might venture the opinion that the boss’ attitude toward the employees can be a bigger factor than money.

#44

[QUOTE=Trixie;7251686]

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard the frustrated barn manager whine “BUT THEY GET TO WORK WITH HORSES!!!”

No, they get to shovel $hit. Let’s please be realistic here.

What, exactly, is the room for advancement in this position and why should they want to continue to work in your employ?[/QUOTE]

Don’t forget they also get to work every holiday (or most of them), don’t really get “personal” or sick days, and are expected to be in control of 24 animals that carry some significant personal/financial value to their owners.

#45

I’ve boarded in 2 barns where kids/boarders do the chores to have $ taken off their board or for lessons. It was not a good situation in either barn. I’m sure that there are kids that could do a very good job but they need to be trained and then supervised. The reality has been that if someone misses a stall, the horse sleeps in a dirty job because the others fall back on, “it’s not my stall to clean”. The actual stall cleaning is very dependent on who does it. There is not standard to be adhered to. When it was pointed out to the kids that watered that the horses were out of water within an hour of being watered, the reply was that they should “water the horses later”. Okay. Boots, blankets, fly spray, etc. also depends entirely on who happens to be doing the chores, whether they’re rushed for some reason and their mood.

The barns that are known for really good care only use paid employees and rarely, if ever, hire anyone under 18. It is an interesting concept to ask the boarders whether they would pay a bit more for better, more consistent care. I could even see an amount just for the improved care that was used to supplement the regular pay. Maybe some boarders could even offer to pay a “tip” so to speak for more personalized or better care. Interesting things to think about.

#46

I worked for a busy sale barn in college, I used to get paid by the day. Got there at 7, usually left around 4-5 with a one hour lunch break. Started out at $60 day and after 2 months went to $70 a day.

That entailed feeding usually around 25 horses, turning them out for 2 hour blocks (blanketed/fly sheets and booted in individual turnout). There were two mexican workers that assisted with turnout and stalls, I usually did around 7 stalls myself. Grooming/tacking up horses for the trainer, and usually hacking about 2-3 horses myself. Then going through and picking out the stalls (never really needed full on cleaning in the afternoon) then the evening feeding and turning out any horses staying out overnight (usually the ponies or the younger ones).

Occasionally if there were clients looking at horses or an especially busy day, I would be out of there later…but normally left right around 4:30.

I loved it…learned a ton, and got to ride some REALLY nice horses (that made my OTTB at home look like a hack…lmao) but it was really hard work. Especially in the winter when most of the horses went to Florida so I only had 5-6 to care for then sat all day freezing until it was time to do the evening work.

I would have continued, but my school schedule the following semester didn’t allow me to work those days since the required classes had me in school every day.

#47

$70 an hour??? That’s a typo, right?

#48

Making the job make sense for someone can help with keeping staff.

For example, maybe the work hours could be changed to make the job suitable for a mother who wants to be able to work while her child is in school, or for a student who takes evening classes. As you are only offering part time hours, it is hard to think of someone actually wanting this job if they need it for more than something to do/pocket money.

Maybe offer a discount on board or riding lessons as an additional “perk”.

Increasing the job duties to include maintenance and lawn care to make the number of hours more practical may also help.

Just try to think of the type of staff you would like, and then think what perks besides $$ might attract them to your position.

#49

[QUOTE=PaintedHunter;7251746]
$70 an hour??? That’s a typo, right?[/QUOTE]

yeah it was…fixed. Granted I did start out the sentence with “paid by the day” then my ADD kicked in…lol.

#50

[QUOTE=SMNG;7251680]
In the same area as you, we pay our help $10 an hour. When you include insurance and workman’s comp costs (which I believe are necessary around horses, especially in a boarding barn), it comes out to about $14.50 an hour total that it costs us (including their wage). Our barn is very small, only 4-5 horses, so we give our help about 4 hours a day to get everything done (including blanketing/booting, turn-out, mucking stalls, feeding, water, turn-in, un-blanketing/booting, cleaning/dusting/vacuuming everything in the barn, etc.). They can go over those 4 hours if they want to, but they do only get paid for 4 since it can all be easily finished in that time frame. They don’t feel rushed so they do an excellent job, and they don’t get stressed about not finishing in time and staying over a little later than they are supposed to. It has worked out very well, as the same lady has worked for us since the barn was built over 3 years ago.[/QUOTE]

But according to many on this board you are not paying them enough, apparently Paying a living wage for a part time 20 hour a week work week needs to be fulltime pay IE: at least $600.00 per week ( $30.00 per hour )
PS: When I did those stalls it was many years ago… not now, a poster just assumed I didn’t know how much work was involved , I do . We had a huge apple harvest this season , but farmers couldn’t find enough pickers to harvest… A good worker can clear $25.00 to $30.00 per hour if they work at a good pace , BUT it is manual labor and most people just arent accustomed to that any longer. Now I came on this board to see how off we were it what we were offereing , those WITH barns who answered indicated I am not that far off … Those who don’t have barns or business’s seemed to think a a boarding facility who charges $400.00 per month will keep its boarders if they double that in order to pay a stall mucker a livable wage that exceeds there own, I can guarantee that barn will not stay in business long in this area . The biggest barns in this area pay there help about $12.50 per hour and I assure they do more work than what I am talking about.
Some of you have gotten pretty combative over this issue, I am not talking about a full time job here I am talking a partime job, PARTIME 20 to 25 hours per week Since when did offereing part time Jobs become so evil ?? Many people who work part time are only looking to supplement a household income NOT Be the sole provider for a family. So why so many angry responses ???

#51

I am not talking about a full time job here I am talking a partime job, PARTIME 20 to 25 hours per week Since when did offereing part time Jobs become so evil ?? Many people who work part time are only looking to supplement a household income NOT Be the sole provider for a family. So why so many angry responses ???

I’m not sure when 8 hours a day became part time.

If it’s 4 hours a day, $40ish a day isn’t exactly much of a household supplement, really, if you count gas to get there. It’s just simply not worthwhile for a lot of people.

The only way I’ve seen an arrangement work out like this is if you were to offer something like ride time or lessons on top of it - something to make it more worthwhile than four hours of shoveling manure.

#52

Well since you are convinced you are doing everything right you should have people beating down your door for an opportunity to work for you and there is no need to ask the internet what you are doing wrong is there.

#53

This thread has gotten way out of hand…The OP asked a simple question and got many (some of them not so kind) responses…yes there are MULTIPLE factors to consider here with barn help, I don’t need to list them all since most of them were already mentioned in the above posts…I don’t know why people have to get so huffy!!!

#54

[QUOTE=MIKES MCS;7251792]
But according to many on this board you are not paying them enough, apparently Paying a living wage for a part time 20 hour a week work week needs to be fulltime pay IE: at least $600.00 per week ( $30.00 per hour )
PS: When I did those stalls it was many years ago… not now, a poster just assumed I didn’t know how much work was involved , I do . We had a huge apple harvest this season , but farmers couldn’t find enough pickers to harvest… A good worker can clear $25.00 to $30.00 per hour if they work at a good pace , BUT it is manual labor and most people just arent accustomed to that any longer. Now I came on this board to see how off we were it what we were offereing , those WITH barns who answered indicated I am not that far off … Those who don’t have barns or business’s seemed to think a a boarding facility who charges $400.00 per month will keep its boarders if they double that in order to pay a stall mucker a livable wage that exceeds there own, I can guarantee that barn will not stay in business long in this area . The biggest barns in this area pay there help about $12.50 per hour and I assure they do more work than what I am talking about.
Some of you have gotten pretty combative over this issue, I am not talking about a full time job here I am talking a partime job, PARTIME 20 to 25 hours per week Since when did offereing part time Jobs become so evil ?? Many people who work part time are only looking to supplement a household income NOT Be the sole provider for a family. So why so many angry responses ???[/QUOTE]

Sorry, Mike. I wasn’t meaning to imply that you couldn’t do the work yourself or that you never have-- I just meant if you were having a hard time finding someone to stick around, maybe if you did a week yourself you would see a bit more what it’s like for the person you hire and have a better idea of what skills/abilities you’d like them to have.

I also asked in my initial reply what the level of care expected was. If this is $400/month, I assume it’s pretty basic care? Maybe someone can do that in a few hours. I was thinking more show quality care, which has some different requirements. Also, if they are expected to do AM and PM feeding, they’re going to be on the property from 6 or 7am until 3-4pm, which is 8 hours, unless you have someone else doing evening chores.

I do still think that it is an extremely demanding job in terms of working all days/weather etc, and to find reliable, hard-working help you will have to pay more than $10/hour. All the best in your search.

#55

[QUOTE=RockyStar;7251890]
This thread has gotten way out of hand…The OP asked a simple question and got many (some of them not so kind) responses…yes there are MULTIPLE factors to consider here with barn help, I don’t need to list them all since most of them were already mentioned in the above posts…I don’t know why people have to get so huffy!!![/QUOTE]

Probably because this has been hashed out at least 30 times on this board.

It generally boils down to the following:

No one can find good barn help because:

  • Staff is underpaid
  • Staff has to work either unreasonably long hours or completely bizarre ones (for instance, it’s ONLY three hours a day but those three hours are between 4-5:30 a.m. and 7-8:30 p.m. but hey, YOU TOTALLY GET THE REST OF THE DAY OFF!)
  • Staff is expected to be reasonably well-educated, articulate, and have enough horse experience to handle 90% of tasks around a barn - YET:
  • There is no opportunity for advancement
  • Staff cannot get health insurance through employer because they’re too small a business to afford it
  • Staff is frequently expected to work without vacation time (and certainly not PAID vacation time, at least until they’ve “proven themselves”) and occasionally without weekends because BO believes that “taking care of horses doesn’t end at 5 p.m.”
  • BO thinks that shoveling manure/working with horses is a PRIVILEGE
  • Half the BO’s that write posts complaining about finding staff have proven themselves to be utterly insane in most regards

There’s more, but that’s the general gist of it. I mean, we’ve actually had barn owners come on here and ask why hell one of their working students (paid $50 a week and housing, full time, no joke, working for someone who is not a BNT or even particularly well-known) had the audacity to ask for a cell phone allowance for her own safety.

And yanno? It’s tiresome.

#56

[QUOTE=Dinah-do;7250603]
House keepers/cleaning charge $25 - $30.00 an hour. [/QUOTE]

No, they don’t actually. Cleaning SERVICES may charge that, but cleaning help generally gets minimum wage or slightly higher if they work for an agency, and generally $10-12 if they work independently. Living in NYC, most of my friends pay between $10 and $15/hr (and the $15 is in-city prices for wealthier families). In areas outside of NYC, I’ve seen people offering anything from minimum wage to $12/hr. I think cleaning help is an apt comparison, and the money is comparable.

#57

I’ve never been able to find cleaning help for $10-15 an hour. DC metro prices here.

#58

I pay 5 bucks a stall. Stall cleaned , buckets scrubbed , Haynets filled and hung. I have 10 horses they fellow who does them takes about an hour and a half. He’s hard on bedding though. Sigh . That’s the racetrack.

#59

[QUOTE=Manahmanah;7251543]
Mike, when you pay people a fair market wage they tend to be reliable and stick around. When you try to pay people below market rate then you get the type of workers you have been getting. Your problem is of your own making. In this world you get what you pay for. If you want the kind of help that leaves stalls filthy, doesn’t alert anyone to the fact that horses aren’t drinking/pooping, have tree trunk legs, and/or decides to quit or not show up regularly then keep trying to pay what you are paying. If you want help that is smart, likes working for you and is reliable then you will need to pay them enough to live. It’s just as simple as that. A lot of people have given you good advice here in this thread and you just turned around and said this is what you think the job should pay - well then pay that. And get used to having the kind of staff you are complaining about, because those are the only people who are willing to work for that wage.[/QUOTE]

Barn work doesn’t pay well because it is unskilled manual labor and retention is low because at that level, most people job-hop. You can pay market rate for muckers and lose them because they can become WalMart greeters and be indoors all winter and have a chance to advance. Low paying jobs are ENTRY level and once a person learns some basic skills (interpersonal, dealing with a boss, showing up as scheduled) required for ALL jobs, unless the “horse” thing is able to hold them, you have to expect them to want to move on.
I used to train and supervise new bank tellers. Most were paid a few cents over minimum wage. They had to balance out daily after about $100k in transactions. It was a pleasant place with nice customers and a chance for promotion, but turnover was high. Why? For a similar wage, these people could go scoop ice cream at Friendly’s and not have the stress of the daily balance out. Same thing happens at barns. Why deal with the cold and the pesky horses and snooty clients and the barn manager who expects “Hunterdon” on a “beer budget?”

#60

I’m still sticking with my suggestion of longevity pay. Stay three months (or four, or six), get a raise. Six months after that, another raise. A year after that, another… You get the point. :winkgrin:

And to be honest, there are days (weeks) that I’d happily go back to feeding, mucking, blanketing for $10-$12/hr eight hours a day. Cut my pay by more than two thirds, and deal with psycho horse people, but still…sometime about mucking stalls is so, SO, zen :).

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