[QUOTE=Trixie;7252892]
Show of hands… how many of you are going to drive anywhere to work for 4 hours for $40 doing manual labor?[/QUOTE]
I do it…because it fits in with the rest of my schedule.
[QUOTE=Linny;7253045]
Paying less than a “living wage” doesn’t mean a “slave” class exists! Slaves (which still exist today in some cultures) are PROPERTY, not people who have entered into a agreement to work for substandard wages.
Statistics show that MOST people paid minimum wage or just above are NOT living in destitution as their wages are supplemental to other jobs or other household members. Over 80% of minimum wage earners have their own car, cell phone and TV with cable/satellite service. Many are young people starting out in the workforce. Those who are literally trying to exist off only min wage are eligible for enough in benefits (rent assistance, food stamps, Medicaid, assistance with power bills etc) with a value of over $15k+ per annum. In many cases they are people who suffer as a result of choices they have made regarding, drugs, alcohol, refusal to attend school and become literate.
Employers pay what the market bears. Low paying jobs are always going to have high turnover as they are rungs on a ladder which we want to encourage people to climb. Unless there are perks (chance to ride the horses, free food in a restaurant, hours that are flexible for a mom etc) are good enough to offset the low wages people will leave.[/QUOTE]
:yes:
As someone who grew up in a Single parent, minimum wage household, I somehow managed to have some upward mobility. So did my brother…who doesn’t have the college education, but is more successful than me.
[QUOTE=Linny;7253045]
Paying less than a “living wage” doesn’t mean a “slave” class exists! Slaves (which still exist today in some cultures) are PROPERTY, not people who have entered into a agreement to work for substandard wages.
Statistics show that MOST people paid minimum wage or just above are NOT living in destitution as their wages are supplemental to other jobs or other household members. Over 80% of minimum wage earners have their own car, cell phone and TV with cable/satellite service. Many are young people starting out in the workforce. Those who are literally trying to exist off only min wage are eligible for enough in benefits (rent assistance, food stamps, Medicaid, assistance with power bills etc) with a value of over $15k+ per annum. In many cases they are people who suffer as a result of choices they have made regarding, drugs, alcohol, refusal to attend school and become literate.
Employers pay what the market bears. Low paying jobs are always going to have high turnover as they are rungs on a ladder which we want to encourage people to climb. Unless there are perks (chance to ride the horses, free food in a restaurant, hours that are flexible for a mom etc) are good enough to offset the low wages people will leave.[/QUOTE]
Thank you , as I have already stated , Horses are offered to employees to ride and even take a lesson on FREE of cost , No one expects a stall mucker to last for ever , and there are raises offered , The job is not difficult nor demanding , Is there room to advance , Some who is motivated , dedicated , and has a willingness to learn, could advance to a beginner teacher , or a excersise rider for partial board …
Some of the things I have learned from this thread are… 1) Offereing housing could be a real incentive, non is available at present time , but the possibility exsists to perhaps build a modest dwelling or install a mobile home at the farm. It is worth looking into. IF the extra utility costs , taxes and cost of the dwelling don’t exceed what is affordable, I think many barns who offer this also place a monetary value on providing this as it does cost money . 2) Make sure the employee understands, riding opportunities exist . and be willing to work with them even if they are beginners perhpas a free lesson a week. …
[QUOTE=Linny;7253045]
Paying less than a “living wage” doesn’t mean a “slave” class exists! Slaves (which still exist today in some cultures) are PROPERTY, not people who have entered into a agreement to work for substandard wages.
Statistics show that MOST people paid minimum wage or just above are NOT living in destitution as their wages are supplemental to other jobs or other household members. Over 80% of minimum wage earners have their own car, cell phone and TV with cable/satellite service. Many are young people starting out in the workforce. Those who are literally trying to exist off only min wage are eligible for enough in benefits (rent assistance, food stamps, Medicaid, assistance with power bills etc) with a value of over $15k+ per annum. In many cases they are people who suffer as a result of choices they have made regarding, drugs, alcohol, refusal to attend school and become literate.
Employers pay what the market bears. Low paying jobs are always going to have high turnover as they are rungs on a ladder which we want to encourage people to climb. Unless there are perks (chance to ride the horses, free food in a restaurant, hours that are flexible for a mom etc) are good enough to offset the low wages people will leave.[/QUOTE]
A rose by any other name… Or in this case a person who has no other choice but to except wages that don’t allow them to have enough money to live, eat, have health care or access to education is still a slave. You can call it what ever you want to try and make yourself feel better but it is what it is.
So does this barn have a barn manager and what exactly does that person do?
[QUOTE=RugBug;7253054]
I do it…because it fits in with the rest of my schedule.[/QUOTE]
For me, the $ would not be worth the time. By the time I got to any barn in this area and back, I’m already looking at a MINIMUM of a half hour drive (so an hour round trip) and probably $10 or so in fuel costs, since the vehicle I have isn’t very fuel-efficient.
You have to look at all the hours and figure out what they’re worth. If it truly fits into your schedule to work from 8-11 every day and you need the $40, and it’s not costing you an hour and $10 a pop to get there, fine. If you’re a boarder and you’re already there to ride, for instance, that would make sense.
But I think in general, you’re looking for someone who is pretty rare. Most people can find another way to make $10 an hour that doesn’t involve poop.
I don’t think it’s slave labor. I just think you’re looking at an extremely limited pool of applicants who want to do dirty manual labor for a low wage.
And yes, Mike, you’re getting it. If you offer housing, room for advancement, riding, or the ability to keep a horse there - the applicant pool grows significantly.
[QUOTE=Trixie;7253114]
For me, the $ would not be worth the time. By the time I got to any barn in this area and back, I’m already looking at a MINIMUM of a half hour drive (so an hour round trip) and probably $10 or so in fuel costs, since the vehicle I have isn’t very fuel-efficient.
You have to look at all the hours and figure out what they’re worth. If it truly fits into your schedule to work from 8-11 every day and you need the $40, and it’s not costing you an hour and $10 a pop to get there, fine. If you’re a boarder and you’re already there to ride, for instance, that would make sense.
But I think in general, you’re looking for someone who is pretty rare. Most people can find another way to make $10 an hour that doesn’t involve poop.
I don’t think it’s slave labor. I just think you’re looking at an extremely limited pool of applicants who want to do dirty manual labor for a low wage.
And yes, Mike, you’re getting it. If you offer housing, room for advancement, riding, or the ability to keep a horse there - the applicant pool grows significantly.[/QUOTE]
I agree with all of this. I probably wouldn’t drive anywhere specifically for $40/day. When I worked for a someone for about that amount, I quickly decided that I was only doing it for fun/education and it became not worth my associated costs which included gas and giving up my weekend. It was a fun job, although physically tiring, and the business owner was great, it just wasn’t worth it…and it wasn’t worth it to the BO to pay me more.
^ The exchange between Trixie and RugBug illustrates the choice we have to exchange labor for money. For some folks it’s worth it, for others, not so much.
What makes sense to one person is crazy talk to someone else and they can BOTH be right, for their own circumstances.
I agree that there are easier, warmer (or cooler if you are in a hot weather climate) ways to make $10/hr and most don’t involve poop. For some people though, dressing up and working in retail (which involves crazy hours) babysitting or being cooped up in a cubicle hold no appeal. I’d rather deal with horse poop than someone else’s child or late night retail hours or a cubicle, myself. Of course I might change my mind in January here on the tundra.
[QUOTE=Trixie;7252252]
I’ve never been able to find cleaning help for $10-15 an hour. DC metro prices here.[/QUOTE]
Are you using a service? Of course they charge more. If you hire someone independently (which is the way it’s generally done in my circles), you’re not paying nearly so much. It’s also generally off the books, and generally foreign workers. But this is now super off-topic. 
I use a service now. I tried to find someone independent but the ones with actual, unscary references charged similar prices.
I work at a barn for a day rate, but a half day is 60% of the full-day rate. That is because once you factor in gas and travel time, it simply would not be worth walking out of my house (I live quite far from the barn) for a half day.
$10/hour sounds fine for the work you’re describing, but maybe throw in an extra $50 a week for gas? Or offer some flexibility on hours if possible? Most barn staff who stick around do it because the job suits their lifestyle in some way.
To keep people, I feel like jobs need to have be at least one (preferably two) of the following three: 1)Well-paid 2)Fun 3)Educational
Good luck with your search.
A couple points -
It’s not an employer’s job to make sure that the job is worth the employee’s commute, or compensate them for it. I’ve never heard of getting gas money to work at the local fast food or retail joint! I’ve certainly never been compensated for commuting!
It also is not the employers job to provide an employee with a lifestyle beyond what is regulated by law. But employers should realize that the best don’t come cheap.
And…
The employee is agreeing, by accepting the job, that the terms are acceptable. If it’s too little money/no ability for advancement/too long of a commute/too long of hours/too manual of work…etc., it’s the employee’s responsibility to not accept the job or to quit.
It’s the employer’s responsibility to be realistic about what kind of employee they are going to get depending on what they’re offering…and to be willing to be flexible with their terms if they’re not finding what they’re looking for.
Horses are expensive to keep. They’re expensive for the barn owner who is oftentimes trying their best to keep things affordable for the horse owner, who oftentimes wants a level of care that they cannot afford or aren’t willing to pay for. It’s a dilemma.
We tend to employ from a similar labor pool on our dairy. We pay the milkers per 8 hr shift, but the base pay is just over $10/hr. But within 3 months you are eligible for a raise, and the job includes paid vacation and bonuses. But they are guaranteed that 8 hours and it is 6 on, 2 off, so it is worth it. Most of our employees live within a couple miles of the farm, but the ones who drive further don’t get any more money. It is not our fault that they live further from our facility
We have one very qualified guy who drives our feed truck. He is the man that makes it possible for my husband to get off the farm once in awhile, so his pay is in line with his skill set. He also gets an extra $400 a month as a housing allowance.
There is no way I would ever want employees housed on my farm. That is such a headache and I caution you to do some investigating before you go that route. We are looking at a new facility that has housing, and the first thing we do if we purchase it will be tear down the houses. You can always fire someone, but if you have to evict them as well, it really draws out the process.
Not to hijack the thread, but can someone explain to me why barn work in exchange for boarding or partial boarding does not work? As long as both the BM and the worker are in agreement about the terms, it seems like a workable idea for everyone (1) the worker already has knowledge of horses and horse handling, (2) the worker is already coming to the barn for their own horse anyway so the cost of “commuting” is a mute point. As a teen I worked at a busy hunter/jumper show barn grooming and mucking stalls in exchange for lessons. At present (many many years later) I am currently “free-leasing” two horses from a neighbour on their property. I do all the barn work associated with these two horses and two ponies as well.
In 3 or 4 years, I will be retiring and moving to a “more temperate” part of Ontario, and at that time it is my plan to acquire my own horse, and will be looking for quality outdoor board (it is available in the area I’m looking at retiring to – not retiring to the metro area). It is my hope to find a barn where I can work part time to reduce my boarding fees. In the meantime (while I’m working my way towards retirement), I’m taking courses through the University of Guelph for a Diploma in Equine Studies.
I completely understand that before acquiring a horse of my own I need to be committed to paying the full pin for boarding, etc. and will be well prepared to do so, but since I’d rather clean a barn than clean my house, why wouldn’t I be a good fit for a BM as a part time employee working off a portion of my board?
It is not our fault that they live further from our facility
Technically, no, it isn’t. But its certainly a reason someone might have difficulty finding people to show up. If they have to travel to get there and the trip costs a large fraction of what you’re making, it’s often not worth it. So it actually IS your problem if you don’t have an easily available - AND willing to work for cheap - workforce nearby.
No, employers aren’t required to subsidize it, but without it, there goes your staff. It has to be worthwhile.
I completely understand that before acquiring a horse of my own I need to be committed to paying the full pin for boarding, etc. and will be well prepared to do so, but since I’d rather clean a barn than clean my house, why wouldn’t I be a good fit for a BM as a part time employee working off a portion of my board?
This can be different because the when someone is a client, the dichotomy is off. Also, not every trainer can have every client working for them - so it might be kind of difficult for a trainer to offer something to one client but not others. Sometimes it works out really well - sometimes, if someone is unhappy, it usually ends in the boarder leaving the farm.
Also, you might find out your trainer is nuts.
[QUOTE=Trixie;7254284]
Also, you might find out your trainer is nuts.[/QUOTE]
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and still survived… maybe the trainer was only moderately nuts. 
We have a working student who comes on the weekend. She does about 7 stalls, ( so so) then she may sweep 2 aisles and then she has a free lesson then helps turnout, horses in afternoon. No boots or flymasks. She repick( so so) hays waters and sweeps again. Our lessons are $35 each. That’s $70 over 2 days. I feel like she is getting way more than giving. What are your thoughts?
[QUOTE=Mandybvergerio;7255940]
We have a working student who comes on the weekend. She does about 7 stalls, ( so so) then she may sweep 2 aisles and then she has a free lesson then helps turnout, horses in afternoon. No boots or flymasks. She repick( so so) hays waters and sweeps again. Our lessons are $35 each. That’s $70 over 2 days. I feel like she is getting way more than giving. What are your thoughts?[/QUOTE]
How many hours is she working? It sounds like an all day affair and she’s getting $35 per day?
Let’s say she’s working 5 hours a day. That’s $7 an hour.
Not sure I’d call that giving more than she’s getting. I’d say you’re getting the better end of that bargain.
For the record, when I had my barn, we “paid” the working students minimum wage, exchanged out for their lessons. They were aged 13-17 doing a few hours of work a week by scrubbing/filling water buckets, helping younger lesson kids tack up, rake the aisles, throw lunch hay, that sort of thing. Very simple work offered to help out the kids that needed a leg up. There was a limit to how many lessons they could work off per month because frankly, we couldn’t afford to give away too much.
Min wage is not a lot of money, but again, these were teens working of an extra lesson here and there, and as a small operation, was all we could afford to do. The kids that thought it was worth it were appreciative for the opportunity to get more saddle time. The kids that didn’t, didn’t do it. We offered this program almost more for the kids than we did to help us with work as oftentimes we spent a lot of time teaching and helping them learn the proper ways to do things and making sure they were doing their jobs and not gabbing.
Any more real position, such as stalls, feeding, barn manager-type role, would have been compensated at a much higher rate to reflect the nature of that position.
I think the most important thing is to be clear about what you are offering. Is this a WS position? If you’re trading services, what is the labor rate? Make sure things are clear and that everyone is on the same page. What really matters is not how “fair” the position is from the outside perspective, but that it’s fair and worthwhile to the parties involved.
Otherwise, someone ALWAYS feels like they’re “giving more than they’re getting.”
1 Like
[QUOTE=NorthwoodsRider;7253864]
Not to hijack the thread, but can someone explain to me why barn work in exchange for boarding or partial boarding does not work? As long as both the BM and the worker are in agreement about the terms, it seems like a workable idea for everyone (1) the worker already has knowledge of horses and horse handling, (2) the worker is already coming to the barn for their own horse anyway so the cost of “commuting” is a mute point. As a teen I worked at a busy hunter/jumper show barn grooming and mucking stalls in exchange for lessons. At present (many many years later) I am currently “free-leasing” two horses from a neighbour on their property. I do all the barn work associated with these two horses and two ponies as well.
In 3 or 4 years, I will be retiring and moving to a “more temperate” part of Ontario, and at that time it is my plan to acquire my own horse, and will be looking for quality outdoor board (it is available in the area I’m looking at retiring to – not retiring to the metro area). It is my hope to find a barn where I can work part time to reduce my boarding fees. In the meantime (while I’m working my way towards retirement), I’m taking courses through the University of Guelph for a Diploma in Equine Studies.
I completely understand that before acquiring a horse of my own I need to be committed to paying the full pin for boarding, etc. and will be well prepared to do so, but since I’d rather clean a barn than clean my house, why wouldn’t I be a good fit for a BM as a part time employee working off a portion of my board?[/QUOTE]
Believe it or not The IRS does not allow it and it is punishable by large fines if you get caught doing it.
[QUOTE=Mandybvergerio;7255940]
We have a working student who comes on the weekend. She does about 7 stalls, ( so so) then she may sweep 2 aisles and then she has a free lesson then helps turnout, horses in afternoon. No boots or flymasks. She repick( so so) hays waters and sweeps again. Our lessons are $35 each. That’s $70 over 2 days. I feel like she is getting way more than giving. What are your thoughts?[/QUOTE]
And this illustrates why trading out for board or lessons often doesn’t work. One party usually feels taken advantage of.
I would say that’s about 3 hours of work a day and sounds about right with the trade involved.
However, if you find that her stall cleaning is sub-par, it is your responsibility as the boss to teach her to do it to your standards. Subpar work is usually the fault of the boss, not the worker when the tasks are manual in nature. Teach her what to do, hold her accountable for doing it correctly and maybe you wouldn’t feel like she’s getting way more than she is giving.
