Fair pay for mucking stalls ???

[Mac123]

@RugBug;7256252

I would say that’s about 3 hours of work a day and sounds about right with the trade involved.

I agree with Rugbug, but depending on how the schedule is, I think the WS may be there a good deal more than 3 hours. Unless she’s throwing lunch hay instead of dinner hay.

I think there has to be a balance between setting a fair rate for the tasks that are being accomplished, and being realistic about how long the WS is at the barn.

If she’s there most of the day, $35 probably feels like SHE’s the one being taken advantage of. If she’s really only working 3 hours, then it’s pretty fair.

Either way, I don’t see this situation as unfair to the owner. Doing stalls twice, feeding/sweeping twice, helping with turnouts, is not a tiny amount of work.

Also agree with Rugbug - it’s your responsibility to teach her/expect the stalls to be cleaned how you want them to be. Don’t put that on her. Unless, of course, you’ve tried and she still isn’t doing them up to par. In that case, don’t complain about it, find someone new. Very simple.

[Mac123]

[QUOTE=MIKES MCS;7256250]
Believe it or not The IRS does not allow it and it is punishable by large fines if you get caught doing it.[/QUOTE]

Can you expand on this?

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=MIKES MCS;7256250]
Believe it or not The IRS does not allow it and it is punishable by large fines if you get caught doing it.[/QUOTE]

@Mac123;7256263

Can you expand on this?

Actually, it is allowed. It is bartering income. Both parties have to report it, but it is allowed.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

and if you don’t claim it as as business, it is definitely allowed.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-%26-Self-Employed/Bartering-Tax-Center

“A barter exchange is any person or organization with members or clients that contract with each other (or with the barter exchange) to jointly trade or barter property or services. The term does not include arrangements that provide solely for the informal exchange of similar services on a noncommercial basis”

[Mac123]

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;7256318]
Actually, it is allowed. It is bartering income. Both parties have to report it, but it is allowed.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

and if you don’t claim it as as business, it is definitely allowed.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-%26-Self-Employed/Bartering-Tax-Center

“A barter exchange is any person or organization with members or clients that contract with each other (or with the barter exchange) to jointly trade or barter property or services. The term does not include arrangements that provide solely for the informal exchange of similar services on a noncommercial basis”[/QUOTE]

Thanks, that’s what I thought.

[stargzng386]

At my barn I work on weekends to give the regular barn worker Sat afternoon and Sunday off. Two other girls and me work out shifts as two people are needed am and pm. We are paid $10 an hour and it’s deducted from my board. I feel it’s fair because it’s extra money for me and I already drive to the barn to ride. I know the guy who works the rest of the week gets paid more but I am not 100% sure how much more, most likely 12 or 13 an hour. There is opportunity for growth or more work because as he gets all of the barn chores down there is opportunity to do additional house/land chores. Mowing etc. So he does not have to do these but can if he wants to make more money. There is also a house on the property that is currently rented out but he will move there once the current renters leave so he can stay on the property. He will get to pay extremely discounted rent to live there and will save on gas when living on the property. Living in the house is only available after proving that you will stay and do a good job.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Mac123;7256236]
How many hours is she working? It sounds like an all day affair and she’s getting $35 per day?

Let’s say she’s working 5 hours a day. That’s $7 an hour. [/QUOTE]

When I was a kid that was about the going rate or ratio: five hours of barn ratting per hour of lesson…… on a well-trained, sound horse. The quality of the horses and instruction was key, IMO.

Not sure why an employer paying less than minimum wage, with no workman’s comp, social security or any other paper work for a part-time weekend job thinks the kid is getting the longer end of the stick. Just try to find the adult to do the same job for the same total pay on the open market and see what happens. I think you’ll find it’s hard to get the employee you want for the money you’ll spend.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Hot-2-Trot;7253383]
Are you using a service? Of course they charge more. If you hire someone independently (which is the way it’s generally done in my circles), you’re not paying nearly so much. It’s also generally off the books, and generally foreign workers. But this is now super off-topic. :D[/QUOTE]

Once we talk about hiring foreign-born workers, we aren’t off-topic at all…… at least not for this job in this industry.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=mvp;7256384]

Not sure why an employer paying less than minimum wage, with no workman’s comp, social security or any other paper work for a part-time weekend job thinks the kid is getting the longer end of the stick. Just try to find the adult to do the same job for the same total pay on the open market and see what happens. I think you’ll find it’s hard to get the employee you want for the money you’ll spend.[/QUOTE]

Adults and kid workers are two very different demos and markets…enough so that talking about them together is almost absurd

[Linny]

[QUOTE=NorthwoodsRider;7253864]
Not to hijack the thread, but can someone explain to me why barn work in exchange for boarding or partial boarding does not work?
I completely understand that before acquiring a horse of my own I need to be committed to paying the full pin for boarding, etc. and will be well prepared to do so, but since I’d rather clean a barn than clean my house, why wouldn’t I be a good fit for a BM as a part time employee working off a portion of my board?[/QUOTE]

Several reasons mentioned above and the fact is that eventually the barter system falls through because the BO needs cash flow to pay the feed man and the shavings guy. Unless she sidelights as a pole dancer, she’s going to need cash from her boarders at some point.

[Linny]

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;7256318]
Actually, it is allowed. It is bartering income. Both parties have to report it, but it is allowed.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

and if you don’t claim it as as business, it is definitely allowed.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-%26-Self-Employed/Bartering-Tax-Center

“A barter exchange is any person or organization with members or clients that contract with each other (or with the barter exchange) to jointly trade or barter property or services. The term does not include arrangements that provide solely for the informal exchange of similar services on a noncommercial basis”[/QUOTE]

The poster that brought this up mentioned living in Ontario, so I’d guess that Canadian laws apply.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7256536]
Adults and kid workers are two very different demos and markets…enough so that talking about them together is almost absurd[/QUOTE]

Yes, but you’d be surprised how often folks do get kiddies to do the work. Or pay kiddie salaries and wonder why responsible adults won’t take the job.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=Linny;7256920]
Several reasons mentioned above and the fact is that eventually the barter system falls through because the BO needs cash flow to pay the feed man and the shavings guy. Unless she sidelights as a pole dancer, she’s going to need cash from her boarders at some point.[/QUOTE]

Ok, since you brought that up, has everyone seen this news story? This is perhaps a shining example of how NOT to do it:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2490996/Horse-riding-instructor-Jenine-Jones-led-double-life-brothel-madam.html

I thought I had seen most things in the horse business, but this was a new one on me. :eek:

[Trixie]

I think it’s hysterical that they describe her as “a woman of previous good character.”

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=Linny;7256943]
The poster that brought this up mentioned living in Ontario, so I’d guess that Canadian laws apply.[/QUOTE]

Bartering income in Canada is similar, if it’s not a “business”, it’s not subject to the same reporting as a business.

The CRA does not require barter exchanges to provide documentation like the IRS does, but business owners in Canada are still required to document and report their barter and trade transactions.

See the full article at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-ideas/even-barter-transactions-have-a-tax-implication/article1472218/

Keep wording is “business”, as opposed to hobby farming, which a lot of exchanges are.

Example, I own a farm, I am not a business, I don’t claim it as a business. It is a hobby. Suzy board her horse for $300 a month and works 5 days a week to offset her board. Legal.

I own a farm as a business. Suzy works 5 days a week to offset her board. No one claims it as barter (this is a question accounts ask) THIS is illegal, but is pretty common, most likely because people do not know.

To the question at hand, 10-15 and hour. I used to pay $3 a stall for stalls only (plus bedding). Her stalls were so clean I could sleep in them. I miss her. Sigh. I claimed the money I paid her and 1099’d her. I doubt she claimed it as income.

[cherham]

I believe that $12.00 per hour is a good starting range for mucking stalls etc. If you are not running a “business” and can legally pay this way. And quite frankly I see this a lot in the horse world…definitely not legal and the farm/boarding business is taking a huge risk in the event of ever being sued. However (at least in Ontario) if you are operating a horse boarding business you are required to pay workers compensation, employment insurance etc. and that $12.00 per hour starting pay quickly rises costing close to $20.00 per hour once the employer pays their mandatory portion of these costs. Then there is the cost of time preparing pay slips, tax forms etc. It all adds up and yet people wonder why the cost of boarding horses is so expensive.

[Coanteen]

[QUOTE=mvp;7252900]
What?

What use, then, is minimum wage?[/QUOTE]

I find all the hand-wringing over minimum wage (and slavery, the hell?) hilarious, given that OP pays ABOVE minimum wage and offers workman’s comp.

I also wouldn’t expect part-time mucking to support me. Heck, I made actual minimum wage with no workman’s comp as a lifeguard for several summers (private, not a municipal job - although I got that later too and the pay wasn’t that much better), and that was arguably somewhat skilled and I totally had peoples’ lives in my care (and the occasional fishing out of shit, of course).

OP appears to pay about the going rate in his area. I’d be trying to find out whether the other barns have the same issues, or if there’s something about the OP’s specific situation that gives him above-average worker troubles.

[Linny]

[QUOTE=Trixie;7257153]
I think it’s hysterical that they describe her as “a woman of previous good character.”[/QUOTE]

Aren’t we all!

[spotteddrafter]

[QUOTE=Dinah-do;7250603]
House keepers/cleaning charge $25 - $30.00 an hour. Why is stable help sucked into a very low min wage? Barn staff is skilled, works in all kinds of weather ( at least where I live) and has to drive to get here. Impossible to live, maintain a car and have suitable clothing on any kind of min wage. Good help should be well paid and taken care of.[/QUOTE]

Good thoughts! I work off my board at a rate of $25/hour and we are a 10-stall facility. We are a really NICE facility, but the BOs go above and beyond in taking care of me.

[MIKES_MCS]

[QUOTE=spotteddrafter;7257696]
Good thoughts! I work off my board at a rate of $25/hour and we are a 10-stall facility. We are a really NICE facility, but the BOs go above and beyond in taking care of me.[/QUOTE]

What kind of work do you do for $25.00 per hour in the barn ? and what is your board rate per month ?

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Dinah-do;7250603]
House keepers/cleaning charge $25 - $30.00 an hour. Why is stable help sucked into a very low min wage? .[/QUOTE]

Wow!! Don’t mean to de-rail this thread, but where do you live that house cleaners get those sort of rates?

Granted, I live in a (relatively) low-income area, but around here your basic (not specialized) registered nurse barely gets this wage, and certainly not housekeepers. I’ve seen ads posted and the going rate is usually between $10-12 per hr.