Fecal Water Syndrome/Stemmy Hay/Laminitis Risk

[Jackie_amp_Starlette]

So, my laminitis prone mini has been getting FWS for several years in the fall. I could not figure out what was causing it. He is on dry lot - I literally walk the area and hand pick grasses. It’s totally bare. I started just bringing him and his friend into the barn and letting them loose for the fall/winter/spring and that would stop it. I assumed he was somehow reaching through the fence nibbling on forbidden grasses even though I have a 2-foot swath that is bare.

So today I was doing some repairs in the barn and looked out to his pasture to see him chasing the odd leaves that blow across and eating them. Argh!!! Now they are in the barn (I block the shed that is attached to the barn so they can look outside into it but not go into the pasture) but at least I have an answer.

Look for something weird - my mini was literally chasing the blowing leaves across the pasture like a dog after a ball!

[MorganMaresVT]

Update for my 28 year old Morgan mare. She had a great end of summer/early fall. Poop was perfect, clean bum and tail. We added in Platinum Performance GI and her poop was better than it had been in years.

At the beginning of this week, I started the dreaded process of mixing in a couple of this year’s stemmier, lower quality bales (it was a bad year here with a very late first cut because of weather and lack of fertilizer) with what I still have from last year. Even cutting the crappier bales with last year’s softer stuff, the impact was almost instantaneous- wet sloppy cow piles with spurting water again. We still have some grass turnout, but in a month or so the grass will barely be “busy grass,” and a month after that it will be blanketed in snow until March (we’re in Vermont). I hope that after transitioning over to this hay things will stabilize, but am not optimistic after last winter’s problems. And that was decent hay.

Sigh.

[stb]

@MorganMaresVT the single biggest factor in my gelding’s improvement was switching from Timothy hay (which tends to be stemmy) to a fine and soft Orchard. He is 100% fine now and I am never putting him back on stemmy hay again. Even just a little bit sets him off. I think he just can’t handle the tougher hay away more.

[MorganMaresVT]

@stb

he single biggest factor in my gelding’s improvement was switching from Timothy hay (which tends to be stemmy) to a fine and soft Orchard. He is 100% fine now and I am never putting him back on stemmy hay again. Even just a little bit sets him off. I think he just can’t handle the tougher hay away more.

I think we are probably heading in that direction, which will mean a pretty big shift in my management. I currently have three horses that all live out 24/7 on 7ish acres of pasture (or, a snowy field in winter ). Hay is provided abundantly in nets all winter, with all 3 having the same access to the same hay. Being Morgans, of course they can’t all have real nice, fine orchard grass. So I will have to come up with a solution to leave this mare in her own sectioned-off turnout/shed area with better hay for periods of time. I am hoping we’re not there yet, but we may be.

[erinmeri]

I just wanted to check back in about my mare, in the event it might help someone…

My mare has had on and off cow patty poops since I had her (3 years this week!!) that were well controlled on GUT. Early summer, it stopped working and her diarrhea came back with a vengeance - this time with fairly copious fecal water. Whenever her poops were decently formed, which was somewhat rare and intermittent, they were accompanied by a sizable “gush”. The cow patties were also very sloppy.

After consulting with our internist, we were on day 2 or 3 of Sand Clear, with a plan to start Assure Guard Gold afterwards, when my mare came down with Potomac Fever. We took her off the Sand Clear and focused on that battle.

We recovered from that and were discussing resuming the Sand Clear/Assure Guard Gold plan when about 5 days later, she broke out with nose to tail hives. In addition to Dex, we started her on Zyrtec. Since she also has asthma, and it seemed to be helping with that, we kept her on it past the initial week. Lo and behold, her poops almost immediately firmed up and the fecal water went away.

A month or so later, I ran out of Zyrtec and wasn’t able to get a refill to the barn for a few days, and the fecal water and sloppy poops returned. Put her back on the Zyrtec, and they firmed up and the fecal water went away.

Last week, we ran out (again!) and it was four days before I could get more. By day 2 or 3, her poops were a mess, with tons of fecal water. I put her back on Zyrtec on Wednesday afternoon, and by Saturday, her poops were perfect, and have remained so. No fecal water, no cow patties - even when she poops in the crossties pre-ride, the ring during, and the crossties after. Nothing but perfect firm apples and no water. (This was unheard of before…)

At this point, I have a text out to my internist about allergy testing because I think that the clinical improvement indicates that may be behind the fecal water.

It’s also a cost effective remedy if it works for you… If you purchase Zyrtec at Costco or on Amazon (generic), it is super cheap compared to supplements.

These are my clinical observations only, but I am convinced at this point that there is a correlation. A correlation we discovered by accident… May be worth discussing with your vet!

ETA: I can include “before” and “after” photos, but not sure if y’all would want to see them! Lol.

[FjordBCRF]

It’s so strange how different things help different horses so much. I had to start my gelding on Zyrtec this summer for allergies, and unfortunately it didn’t help in the FWS department. That’s great it helped you so much!

We’re still dry as a bone now with the cooler temps though so I’ll keep taking that!

[erinmeri]

@FjordBCRF

It’s so strange how different things help different horses so much. I had to start my gelding on Zyrtec this summer for allergies, and unfortunately it didn’t help in the FWS department. That’s great it helped you so much!

We’re still dry as a bone now with the cooler temps though so I’ll keep taking that!

I didn’t put two and two together until we ran out and the fecal water came back with a vengeance. I HOPE it keeps working… as it is not only cost effective, but seems to be killing multiple birds (fecal water/diarrhea, asthma, and hives) with one stone!

Sorry it didn’t work for you.

[erinmeri]

Avert your eyes if you don’t want to see poop pics…

Avert…

Avert…

Final warning…

Before Zyrtec (sloppy cow patty):

Before Zyrtec (formed with fecal water - on a not-so-gushy day, but you can see the water):

After 3 days on Zyrtec:

Today (after 6 days on Zyrtec):

ETA, I don’t have good pics of firmed poops with water, but that was a thing. She was also “burning” the bottom of her tail and her inner thighs with the poop and moisture.

[erinmeri]

“Butt burns”. Lemme know if you have another explanation. I don’t.

[fordtraktor]

How much Zyrtec are you giving?

[LadyB]

Haven’t read the whole thread, but I did find a solution to my geldings extreme loose stool and sharts.
Psyllium Husk. Purchased from Bulk Barn, feeing 50g/day and its helped immensely!

[FjordBCRF]

Wednesday this week we had a one off FWS reoccurrence. It’s been in the high 40’s low 50’s for a bit here and I think he was getting to warm with his no fill sheet on. I redid his clip yesterday and weighed the hair coming off…it was a pound which is about 450 grams, so that’s like a heavyweight blanket plus his coat that hasn’t been clipped! Hard being a nordic horse.

[ihearttbs]

I have a fjord cross who also has this. For him it gets especially bad in the fall when the leaves start falling (he will eat some of them), which makes me think it’s related to sugar content/possibly extra fiber and being slightly metabolic or early cushings (he’s 14).
A few things that have helped him:

-I’ve treated him for hindgut ulcers a couple times and that seems to help (gutX or alimend have both worked well for him without breaking the bank)
-I’ve put a grazing muzzle on him as necessary outside and when inside he has to eat the majority of his hay out of a really slow feed haynet which I think helps him digest it better since it eats it slower
-Keeping him on a clay supplement (one of the active ingeiedienfs of biosponge but cheaper)
-Feeding a bit higher extremely low nsc grain (I use poulin carb-safe) than I othewise would to an easy keeper, allows me to feed him a little less hay which keeps his gut happy
-Take him on and off of psyllium or chia seeds to help clear any sand out of his gut

[FjordBCRF]

I think I am solidly in the camp of doing my best to keep him cool, any kind of heat stress flares him up.

Im confident it’s not hay. We get 2-3 weeks of hay delivered at a time sometimes from different suppliers, and roundbales every few weeks, sometimes from different suppliers. No issues whatsoever in the cooler temps even with that variability. He has roundbale access from about 6AM to 4PM, a haychix extreme slow feed net in his stall for his PM hay, and also has an auto feeder for hay pellets overnight so he’s never on an empty stomach but also can’t gorge.

He’s been on chia, psyllium, Platinum Balance, Platinum GI all with no great success. He doesnt get grain and I have kept him on the following as a base:

2 cups beet pulp
Custom Equine Vermont Blend Pro which is full of pre/postbiotics among other things
Custom Equine Omega E which is flax/vitamin
Apple a Day Electrolytes
TractGuard which contains butyric acid which is suppose to help support FWS

Im definitely open to trying some new things once the summer kicks up again, it may be that he needs the higher dose of of the things that do help where I can up them. Heat management is going to be on my radar. He may have to wait until way later to go out for the night which shouldn’t be a problem when we switch back to overnight turnout, that’s something that is an easy try too.

Glad you found some help for your guy!!

[FjordBCRF]

Anyone use a soil pH meter to test fresh poop?? Soil testers are only $15 on Amazon.

How to 'Measure' Gut Health

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

Bumped for Bo!

[EmilyM]

Can anyone here tell me what dose of just Plain psyllium I should use? Mine is getting sand clear but vet said to try regular psyllium. Do I use a whole cup? If so any ideas where to get it in bulk?

[FjordBCRF]

We had two days in the low 80’s and lo and behold…

Has anyone here heard or used Cytotec? Its a human Someone had posted on the FWS Facebook group that it has been used to treat ulcers in their horse and also happened to clear up the FWS. They have the horse on a low dose of it now and it continued to help.

[JB]

If you’ll look up misoprostol as the search term, + ulcer + horse you’ll find a ton of articles in general, and posts in here. It’s definitely used for equine ulcers, generally gastric as it’s much better than omeprazole for glandular ulcers. I have also seen a few situations where a vet Rx’d it for known colitis, or suspected “hind gut issues of unknown type”.

I can imagine it helps of colitis is the cause of the FFWS, but likely won’t if it’s not.

It’s also not a drug to be taken lightly as it has its own set of negative side effects.

[FjordBCRF]

Thanks @JB! Helpful as always!

I fear we are going to just have to deal with the heat being the culprit.