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Feelings on not neutering female dog

The Menagerie
#21

[QUOTE=Ladylexie;8450391]
I have always always spayed/neutered all my animals, but, I adopted this little Chi and she isn’t spayed. I have never had such a tiny dog and to be honest I’m so worried about spaying such a tiny little dog although I know that is an unreasonable fear. She is in heat right now for the third time and being quite the little annoying twit to our neutered male (standing on him, jumping on him, humping her bed) etc. I am researching all the health concerns and it really does seem appropriate to spay her. My husband and I had our GSD’s done promptly, but, we got them as pups. Thanks for your replies.[/QUOTE]

Sunday afternoon, my last appointment of the day was a 9 year old intact female chi who had been vomiting for 3 days and off good. She was drinking and urinating and having normal bowel movements per owner. She came in with a diaper on because she had a smell down there. This was the history my tech gave me except left out the intact part. I walk in see the big nipples then glance at her chart and yup she’s intact. Quietly think to myself, crap it’s a pyo. She surprisingly BAR so I proceed with all my normal history questions and physical. I take the diaper off and yup we’ve got some nice pus coming out of the vulva. So, I proceed to break the news to the owners and strongly suggest emergency surgery but since it is open we can try antibiotics but she will need to be spayed as she will likely develop it again if not bred on her next heat. I give them quotes for everything and the dad decides they won’t be doing anything. Mother and daughter break down in tears. I politely ask him if I can at no charge ultrasound her belly quickly to confirm the diagnosis. He agrees. I take her back and confirm that yes I’m correct. I then sadly walk back into the room determined to at least get her on antibiotics or if they are unwilling to strongly suggest euthanasia. Much to my surprise, he has changed his mind and the surgery is a go.

Her bloodwork was not horrible, but also not great as she’s had a pyo for 3 days although the saving grace was it was an open pyo or shed likely be dead or almost there. She was trying to go septic as it was. Surgery went well. She was bradycardic and hypotensive during the beginning but once I got the uterus out, she stabilized. I’m sure the strong dose of IV antibiotics helped. She woke up well and was discharged that evening with pain medications and two different antibiotics. Ideally, she would of been transferred to the ER clinic for hospitalization and monitoring but I barely got to save her life so that wasn’t an option. Thankfully, she was stable and doing well so I was okay with her owners monitoring her overnight. We also have a 24/7 emergency line where I can be reached and told them if anything at all is wrong to please call me right away. Of course, they didn’t answer this morning and haven’t returned our calls on how she’s doing. I’m hoping no news is good news in this case. Also, the kids were the ones who spoke English which added some frustration to the situation. The parents understood overall but only the father could speak English.

I would of much rather spayed her when she was perfectly healthy and for 1/3 of the cost. Her owners have another intact female who will be coming to be spayed after Christmas.

So please just get her spayed. Anesthesia is much easier and less dangerous on a systemically healthy animal and not one trying to be septic, etc…

FYI: yes, you neuter both sexes. Spaying is female and castration is male. Neutering has just become associated and interchangeable with castration in the small animal world.

#22

[QUOTE=Calamber;8450422]
I wonder why pyometra is such a problem now and it was not so much in years past. [/QUOTE]

I doubt that it is a problem more now than ever; but we probably all know someone that has had a bitch with pyo (at least those of us who know breeders have, since they tend to have more unaltered dogs.) Just like most horses don’t colic, but we all know someone that has had a horse colic badly and need surgery or actually died as a result.

Most bitches will not get pyometra, but if they do - you sure remember it. And unless you’re planning to breed - in which case you are willing to take the risk - you can avoid the expense and heartbreak by spaying.

Also, it prevents unwanted pregnancies, the hassle of bleeding when in season, and might lessen the chances of mammary tumors.

Most vets feel perfectly safe using anesthesia on healthy animals, even tiny ones. But you have to ask yourself - if you had an emergency and they had to anesthetize her - wouldn’t you say yes? So, if you would trust your vet then, why not now - in a planned, non-emergency surgery with pre-op bloodwork? If you don’t trust that - you need to find a new vet.

#23

[QUOTE=Ladylexie;8450391]
I have always always spayed/neutered all my animals, but, I adopted this little Chi and she isn’t spayed. I have never had such a tiny dog and to be honest I’m so worried about spaying such a tiny little dog although I know that is an unreasonable fear. She is in heat right now for the third time and being quite the little annoying twit to our neutered male (standing on him, jumping on him, humping her bed) etc. I am researching all the health concerns and it really does seem appropriate to spay her. My husband and I had our GSD’s done promptly, but, we got them as pups. Thanks for your replies.[/QUOTE]

No matter what dog you have, you will fret yourself sick when it needs surgery, especially elective surgery, that you wonder why you put your dog at risk.

That is normal fear, can’t help that, it is worrisome because stuff happens.
You need to think about that, something happening from surgery no different than any other that may happen, risks we take by being alive.

The risks for problems from not being spayed, for a female dog, weigh more than the rare time a spay surgery may go wrong.

Knowing that, most dog owners grit their teeth and do the surgery.

You will have to make your own decision there.

#24

PLEASE spay your dog. It is better for her health, and there won’t be any more unwanted oops puppies out there.

#25

[QUOTE=Nezzy;8450630]
PLEASE spay your dog. It is better for her health, and there won’t be any more unwanted oops puppies out there.[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify no risk of unwanted pups she is never off a leash. She is tiny she isn’t going out on her own…never never never.

#26

[QUOTE=S1969;8450556]
I doubt that it is a problem more now than ever; but we probably all know someone that has had a bitch with pyo (at least those of us who know breeders have, since they tend to have more unaltered dogs.) Just like most horses don’t colic, but we all know someone that has had a horse colic badly and need surgery or actually died as a result.

Most bitches will not get pyometra, but if they do - you sure remember it. And unless you’re planning to breed - in which case you are willing to take the risk - you can avoid the expense and heartbreak by spaying.

Also, it prevents unwanted pregnancies, the hassle of bleeding when in season, and might lessen the chances of mammary tumors.

Most vets feel perfectly safe using anesthesia on healthy animals, even tiny ones. But you have to ask yourself - if you had an emergency and they had to anesthetize her - wouldn’t you say yes? So, if you would trust your vet then, why not now - in a planned, non-emergency surgery with pre-op bloodwork? If you don’t trust that - you need to find a new vet.[/QUOTE]

Thank you that makes sense. I also appreciate you having a calm approach not simply “yelling” spay your dog.

#27

[QUOTE=Ladylexie;8450646]
Just to clarify no risk of unwanted pups she is never off a leash. She is tiny she isn’t going out on her own…never never never.[/QUOTE]

I agree - it’s not hard to prevent an unwanted pregnancy if you try; many people keep intact dogs and bitches and still don’t have “oops” litters. They can happen, of course, but it would be unlikely that the OP would have an accidental litter.

In this case, I would balance the risks of surgery versus the risk of pyo, mammary tumors + the inconvenience factor. Talk to your vet to know if your bitch is a good candidate for routine surgery or not.

#28

My question would be, why would you not spay your dog? Is there any qualifying reasons that she should pass her dna on? I know you said you are not planning to breed her but accidents happen. Rescues are full of “I’m not going to breed her” pups. What reasons do you have for not making your dog more comfortable during heat cycles and of course as others have pointed out the health advantages? Not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand why you feel it’s a good thing to keep her intact.

#29

[QUOTE=My Two Cents;8450652]
My question would be, why would you not spay your dog? Is there any qualifying reasons that she should pass her dna on? I know you said you are not planning to breed her but accidents happen. Rescues are full of “I’m not going to breed her” pups. What reasons do you have for not making your dog more comfortable during heat cycles and of course as others have pointed out the health advantages? Not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand why you feel it’s a good thing to keep her intact.[/QUOTE]

As I stated once before I always have spayed/neutered all my animals. She is my first tiny tiny dog and I’m so very worried that something could happen to her. She also does have chutzpa and I sometimes wonder if this could be in part due to her being not spayed…I don’t know so this is just a concern. Most people don’t spay there mares and I don’t think they have oops pregnancies. She is quite annoying right now in heat though…LOL. She just flung the (neutered) male Chi off the bed. Do you think she is uncomfortable during her heat cycle? To me she looks like she is being a happy, but, super naughty dog. She still has that big o’l smile on her face…nothing looks like she is in pain at all!!

#30

[QUOTE=S1969;8450651]
I agree - it’s not hard to prevent an unwanted pregnancy if you try; many people keep intact dogs and bitches and still don’t have “oops” litters. They can happen, of course, but it would be unlikely that the OP would have an accidental litter.

In this case, I would balance the risks of surgery versus the risk of pyo, mammary tumors + the inconvenience factor. Talk to your vet to know if your bitch is a good candidate for routine surgery or not.[/QUOTE]

I will do that. Our vet comes over and has dinner with us. She was just over two weeks ago and didn’t seem concerned that she wasn’t spayed, but, I will have a chat with Dr. Kelly…she will help me out.

#31

[QUOTE=Ladylexie;8450383]
I am not trolling for trouble…why would asking about spaying be trolling for trouble??[/QUOTE]

I read your first post that way. Given the fact that spaying is the “default” position of the responsible pet owner and you say you don’t want to breed, one would have to wonder why you’d make an exception for your dog. You don’t say. You also don’t say whether or not you’d change your mind (or that you’ve had this dog a short time). You do say that you have a plan (to watch her 24/7)… untenable as that sounds to me, I’d assume you were going to defend it.

So how could anyone guess whether or not his/her answer would be one you’d consider as opposed to reject?

FWIW, they spay cats that weigh a mere 2#. I can’t see why your dog would be too small for the procedure.

#32

I would have her spayed. My breeders do spay females when they are 6 or 7 because of the risk of pyometra. They don’t neuter the males that they’ve shown, but females are a bit different.
I worry when my dogs are under anesthesia as well. If you can afford it, opt to have presurgery blood work and any other options they offer (fluids, etc.).

#33

[QUOTE=mvp;8450713]
I read your first post that way. Given the fact that spaying is the “default” position of the responsible pet owner and you say you don’t want to breed, one would have to wonder why you’d make an exception for your dog. You don’t say. You also don’t say whether or not you’d change your mind (or that you’ve had this dog a short time). You do say that you have a plan (to watch her 24/7)… untenable as that sounds to me, I’d assume you were going to defend it.

So how could anyone guess whether or not his/her answer would be one you’d consider as opposed to reject?

FWIW, they spay cats that weigh a mere 2#. I can’t see why your dog would be too small for the procedure.[/QUOTE]

It is very simple to monitor my dog 24/7. I live in an apartment on a busy road so she certainly is way to precious for her to be going out on her own for goodness sakes. Why would I not make an exception for my own dog? I’m really simply asking for some information. I also did say in another post that spaying is probably the most appropriate solution so that would lead a reasonable person to believe that I might change my mind. I’m really not trying to upset or anger you with my post…really I’m not!

#34

My thoughts exactly.
Sheilah

#35

I understand anxiety about surgery and small animals! When our feral kittens went in at 2 pounds for surgery I was so stressed and they were firecrackers the next day with no ill effect. One of the feral kittens (now grown into an adorable awful no good handsome as hell 8 lb cat) decided to eat a ball of saran wrap. We were a stressed mess during his obstruction surgery and he pulled through like a champ.

The only extra precaution I would take is asking to transfer to a 24/7 clinic for overnight monitoring if financially possible. I know several clinics that close at 6 PM and even the spays are not necessarily checked again until the walkers come in at 6 am. With such a small dog I would personally feel better with overnight monitoring to ensure a peaceful recovery and proper pain management.

Pyo really is heartbreaking. She’s been intact long enough to reap any benefits from her hormones during development. Now, her uterus and ovaries are at best unnecessary but at worst are ticking time bombs for infection or cancer. Once the surgery is over you don’t ever have to worry about a list of potential reasons why she is throwing up, lethargic, losing weight, etc. if she ever gets sick later in life.

#36

I think the most important reason to spay is due to health reasons. The intact male is a different story as long as the animal is managed and trained.

Anytime vets have to sedate a dog it’s worrisome. You never know if the worst can happen. True in horses and people too, but usually the benefits outweigh the risks.

#37

I am guessing it is the thought of anesthesia which is scaring you. Most veterinarians routinely spay kittens in the 1.5 to 2 pound range. With the right anesthesia, a routine spay is going to be much less risky than potentially facing an emergency spay when she’s older due to pyometra. With dogs so routinely spayed at a young age, I suspect we don’t have a good idea of what percentage of girls left intact will later develop problems.

One other option which would be less invasive but more expensive would be an ovariectomy done laparascopically. And, not what you’re after, but just in the interest of education, there is also the option of an ovary sparing spay. Which is what my eldest is getting when she retires from breeding. There’s new research on knee health and hormones in sport dogs and as a competitive agility dog, I am not screwing with that.

#38

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8450852]
I am guessing it is the thought of anesthesia which is scaring you. Most veterinarians routinely spay kittens in the 1.5 to 2 pound range. With the right anesthesia, a routine spay is going to be much less risky than potentially facing an emergency spay when she’s older due to pyometra. With dogs so routinely spayed at a young age, I suspect we don’t have a good idea of what percentage of girls left intact will later develop problems.

One other option which would be less invasive but more expensive would be an ovariectomy done laparascopically. And, not what you’re after, but just in the interest of education, there is also the option of an ovary sparing spay. Which is what my eldest is getting when she retires from breeding. There’s new research on knee health and hormones in sport dogs and as a competitive agility dog, I am not screwing with that.[/QUOTE]

That is interesting. Thank you.

#39

OP has made up her mind. Not for me to judge a responsible dog owner. My own beautiful Boxer will be spayed a.s.a.p. even though her pups would be very saleable.

But I can’t imagine where the ‘not to neuter’ mindset comes from. It is very prevalent all over, despite education programs and reductions in licencing, etc. Shelters are full of unwanted animals, the numbers would be so reduced if there was a mindset of neutering - perhaps people will not spend the $$? In Europe, which I thought would be progressive, is really bad about it. Nuts on everything!

It is messy to have an unspayed female around. (Ugh) Male dogs hover your property hoping for their chance. We have friends who refuse to castrate their two males for no apparent reason but take them to dog parks and let them run around willy nilly.

I feel sorry for the street dogs left to fend for themselves.

BTW - I have had several litters of Jack Russels, and years later I still get calls for a puppy. I see the relatives all around here, generations later…so this is not a lecture for OP…just my general opinion.

#40

I was hoping someone would bring up the other options that are a little less invasive, and Marshfield is way more qualified to speak on that than me.

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8450990]
But I can’t imagine where the ‘not to neuter’ mindset comes from. It is very prevalent all over, despite education programs and reductions in licencing, etc. Shelters are full of unwanted animals, the numbers would be so reduced if there was a mindset of neutering - perhaps people will not spend the $$? In Europe, which I thought would be progressive, is really bad about it. Nuts on everything![/QUOTE]

See Marshfield’s post. The mindset to not neuter is sweeping through the dog sports world due to some recent research linking neutering, cancer, and joint health.

You are right about the European culture predominantly keeping their dogs intact. If it works for that many people, maybe it isn’t “really bad.”

My advice to a random pet person who asks is to wait until physical maturity (growth plates close). My advice to the OP, whose dog is older, is to find a vet you trust, do bloodwork, and consider the more expensive laparascopic option. FWIW, I waited too long to have my 11yo, 7.5lb Pap’s dental -with multiple extractions- done because I was afraid for his recovery. His bloodwork was perfect, he recovered easily, and OMG the improvement! I feel so much better having that weight off my shoulders. The longer you wait, the greater the risk (same with me delaying the dental).

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