Would you train with someone who was not or had not competed successfully at the levels to which you as an amateur aspire? I wouldn’t, and if you don’t think most of the pros make their living coaching and teaching, vs riding, you are sadly mistaken. US professionals must split their time doing both, which probably negatively affects their riding and podium results, to a large extent.
But do ammy’s aspire to run at the FEI levels? Giving the FEI my money is the last thing on my agenda. I really only “need” someone to train me through the prelim level, if I ever want to get that far. Honestly, someone somewhere can buy a prelim packer and get around - and be a terrible trainer & rider. Or maybe have only gotten to Training for some reason & be a much better trainer & teacher. I do not need a member of a Failing Team to train me to get around prelim. And with folks like Wofford, Denny, JMP, Severson, etc. around - for many years to come, nope, I do not need further competition experience from any of the UL pros.
I thought it was interesting to hear Karen OC give some info on Sally Cousins during Rolex; she was a great rider but concentraded on the national vs. FEI circuit. I have heard nothing but postive stuff about Sally; does one need an FEI ranked competitor as a trainer? I think not.
Ammy’s support the ULs. It is not, and will never be, the other way around. Who owns those horses the 11 Buck competes? Does he own them all? Or do ammys who “like” the sport, the family, or horse make up that majority too?
Additionally, if the organization gave back to thier majority, had any accountability for their lack of success or defunct practices, perhaps they would have a more supportive base. I quite like the rider who rides your pony pcwertb, support her by attending clinics or lessons if she’s around, but I truly believe she is wasting valuable time & resources attempting to be on a defunct Team. I’d rather see her at the top 4*s vs dreaming of the Olympics, as ammy am less supportive of the USET High Performance Team & related goals, and have scaled back my personal support due to this divergence. Do my pennies matter at the end of the day - ha - probably not, but is this how the support base of the sport should feel? And as time goes on w/DOC, things seem to have gotten worse, not better. A disconnect is not benefitting the Team, and this Olympic / FEI BS could be a great opportunity for revitalization of the sport. However, far more likely the heart of the sport will continue to be bastardized…
Additionally, High Perfromance has the Owners Taskforce, and my guess is that they hope the top 1% can support the High Performance team, making the ammy competitor who actually funds the sport less relevent. Good luck crunching those numbers. While LL eventing can survive w/o UL stuff; UL eventing can not survive without its base.
This is the comment I addressed: You don’t have to be a pro ‘rider’ to ride at the ULs. You can be a trainer who makes money from training, coaching, etc.
If I had the ambition to ride at the UL as an ammie, of which there are a fair amount of ammies who do, I wouldn’t want to have a coach who did not have any experience at those levels. That is not to say the experience couldn’t be at national shows through Advanced. No need to be FEI. I don’t think the FEI relies on the lower level base at all, nor considers them. That is probably their biggest flaw, no?
[QUOTE=pcwertb;8139765]
This is the comment I addressed: You don’t have to be a pro ‘rider’ to ride at the ULs. You can be a trainer who makes money from training, coaching, etc.
If I had the ambition to ride at the UL as an ammie, of which there are a fair amount of ammies who do, I wouldn’t want to have a coach who did not have any experience at those levels. That is not to say the experience couldn’t be at national shows through Advanced. No need to be FEI. I don’t think the FEI relies on the lower level base at all, nor considers them. That is probably their biggest flaw, no?[/QUOTE]
It’s not the FEI’s job to consider the base. That’s the job of the NFs. The FEI was supposed to be a sort of cooperative association of the NFs to coordinate International competition. The NFs are supposed to run things in their countries and come together in the FEI to work out international details. Of course it doesn’t work that way; the FEI has become Frankenstein’s monster and seems to have created its own independent life apart from its NFs.
[QUOTE=pcwertb;8139765]
This is the comment I addressed: You don’t have to be a pro ‘rider’ to ride at the ULs. You can be a trainer who makes money from training, coaching, etc.
If I had the ambition to ride at the UL as an ammie, of which there are a fair amount of ammies who do, I wouldn’t want to have a coach who did not have any experience at those levels. That is not to say the experience couldn’t be at national shows through Advanced. No need to be FEI. I don’t think the FEI relies on the lower level base at all, nor considers them. That is probably their biggest flaw, no?[/QUOTE]
I think I am probably a minority in that I don’t normally ride with eventers. I have a GP showjump and a GP dressage coach, and for XC help I usually take clinics. Of course, I like to ride with those who have experience at the ULs [Blyth Tait was my fav, and Sinead who you work with is a close 2nd 
] That being said, I don’t think you need to ride with an FEI rider at that level. A lot of what you get on XC you can learn in the sandboxes.
What I see now is the sport changing for pros so that they can make more money, ride more horses. More prize money, changing the format to make it more desirable to owners, horses running CCI3* and 4*s a few weeks apart so they make qualifications, the general horsemanship is just going out the window. I know this is unpopular opinion, but I have seen a lot of brutal stuff happening behind the scenes at the upper levels.
I’ve seen a lot of brutal stuff behind the scenes in most of the disciplines. Seems to be a sport where people who have little self discipline can thrive.
That is NOT saying that everyone fits into this category at all, but if your around enough training barns or clinics … eventually the dark side surfaces.
Equestrian sport participants, especially pros, are almost always involved with buying and selling, sometimes at stratospheric prices. I can’t think of another sport that revolves so much around buying and selling “equipment” (horses) that is so high maintenance, ages, and gets broken. The traditions of the horse business go back to when the horse was transportation, so have many of the same traits as the used car business which probably adopted its ethics from horse traders.
We all know what the reputation of used car dealers is. There’s always been room in the horse business for people like that.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8139884]
I think I am probably a minority in that I don’t normally ride with eventers. I have a GP showjump and a GP dressage coach, and for XC help I usually take clinics. Of course, I like to ride with those who have experience at the ULs [Blyth Tait was my fav, and Sinead who you work with is a close 2nd ] That being said, I don’t think you need to ride with an FEI rider at that level. A lot of what you get on XC you can learn in the sandboxes.
What I see now is the sport changing for pros so that they can make more money, ride more horses. More prize money, changing the format to make it more desirable to owners, horses running CCI3* and 4*s a few weeks apart so they make qualifications, the general horsemanship is just going out the window. I know this is unpopular opinion, but I have seen a lot of brutal stuff happening behind the scenes at the upper levels.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think this is an UO. I think this is reality. And I don’t think it’s only the UL’s and it certainly isn’t limited to Pros. It also isn’t limited to Eventing, or even equestrian. It’s a fact of life. There are crummy people in all walks of it.
ETA: No, you can’t learn xc in a sandbox. You just can’t.
How does any of the format changes help the owners? I don’t see any of the recent changes, nor any of the FEI’s proposed changes, as helping me, and I am an owner. I don’t want mine to run more often, at shorter distances, even though with no TB blood it might be to her benefit.
And sorry, there is no way my horse or I could get what you get on XC from lessons in sandboxes at the UL. I’ve only schooled prelim, and I sure as hell wouldn’t want only tools I learned in dressage or SJ schools out there at that level on a XC course. That would be irresponsible of me, to my horse.
Well, I don’t “school dressage” in a dressage arena myself. I school dressage out on the trails and over hill and dale. That way when I take a TEST in the sandbox the horse actually is on my aids and doesn’t anticipate a thing.
I know several riders who only do dressage out on the trails … otherwise it is sort of a boring waste of time. Going up a hill and then down a hill without losing your rhythm is a far more effective and practical approach to training the horse. And the horse is smart enough to even understand why you are doing this. It makes perfect sense to them almost immediately.
[QUOTE=pcwertb;8140684]
How does any of the format changes help the owners? I don’t see any of the recent changes, nor any of the FEI’s proposed changes, as helping me, and I am an owner. I don’t want mine to run more often, at shorter distances, even though with no TB blood it might be to her benefit.
And sorry, there is no way my horse or I could get what you get on XC from lessons in sandboxes at the UL. I’ve only schooled prelim, and I sure as hell wouldn’t want only tools I learned in dressage or SJ schools out there at that level on a XC course. That would be irresponsible of me, to my horse.[/QUOTE]
In the new vision of eventing, if you are rich enough to buy the winner, then you can win real money and all of your friends will be envious. In addition, when you go to watch your horse at an event, you won’t have to walk around and risk getting your $1000 shoes dirty, you can just sit and watch from one spot. In addition, your rider will be able to go all out on xc for the win and you won’t have to worry about some pesky “jog” thing or “horsemanship” thing getting in the way of you and all of your prize money. You won’t have to travel around to many events to see your horse run because all of the events will all be run by 1 or 2 really helpful coordinators who keep everything in once place. With jumbotrons. Maybe you can even buy a house there.
All of the above is very tongue in cheek because eventing owners have typically been much more horsey than in other disciiplines, but it’s coming. Count on it.
You know what they say–practice makes perfect, but only perfect practice makes perfect. Unless the rider is skilled enough in dressage to be able to evaluate what they are doing and its correctness, practice qua practice can be as harmful as helpful.
Of course you and the horse can only learn XC by actually riding XC. That’s one of the reasons so many UL Brits hunt in the winter and why so many of the older generation used to hunt. Now NAs compete year round, but it seems to have done little to help and may be detrimental.
[QUOTE=pcwertb;8140684]
And sorry, there is no way my horse or I could get what you get on XC from lessons in sandboxes at the UL. I’ve only schooled prelim, and I sure as hell wouldn’t want only tools I learned in dressage or SJ schools out there at that level on a XC course. That would be irresponsible of me, to my horse.[/QUOTE]
I agree, at that level.
But I am pretty sure that, once they get to the 2*/3* level, most riders rarely school actual cross country courses. They replicate the “questions” in the ring.
[QUOTE=Janet;8140951]
I agree, at that level.
But I am pretty sure that, once they get to the 2*/3* level, most riders rarely school actual cross country courses. They replicate the “questions” in the ring.[/QUOTE]
Maybe that’s the difference with Michael Jung. He can raise the bar in the dressage phase because he is also continuously schooling the xc phase. Also, by schooling solely by replicating the “questions” in the ring, riders overlook the fact that terrain, footing, light, etc. are all part of the question.
[QUOTE=Janet;8140951]
I agree, at that level.
But I am pretty sure that, once they get to the 2*/3* level, most riders rarely school actual cross country courses. They replicate the “questions” in the ring.[/QUOTE]
Depends on what they have available. I see a lot of xc schooling of 3-4* horses still. Not the max fear fences…but schooling technical xc questions…narrows, turning questions, combinations, banks, water etc. Riders like Boyd and Phillip who have xc courses at their farm and move portables around to create technical questions. Not always at competition height but still solid questions.
I think this is similar to the MJ and WFP…they do still school a lot of actual xc, even with their UL horses. They are also replicating a lot in the ring too. It is more about the foot work.
[QUOTE=NCRider;8140844]
In the new vision of eventing, if you are rich enough to buy the winner, then you can win real money and all of your friends will be envious. In addition, when you go to watch your horse at an event, you won’t have to walk around and risk getting your $1000 shoes dirty, you can just sit and watch from one spot. In addition, your rider will be able to go all out on xc for the win and you won’t have to worry about some pesky “jog” thing or “horsemanship” thing getting in the way of you and all of your prize money. You won’t have to travel around to many events to see your horse run because all of the events will all be run by 1 or 2 really helpful coordinators who keep everything in once place. With jumbotrons. Maybe you can even buy a house there.
All of the above is very tongue in cheek because eventing owners have typically been much more horsey than in other disciiplines, but it’s coming. Count on it.[/QUOTE]
I don’t disagree with what you have written, but the idea that by winning at the upper levels you will be winning “real money” is a misconception.
In show jumping where there is “real” prize money, the top horses are at best breaking even. It is horrendously expensive to campaign a GP show jumper. As prize money increases so do costs. The horses get more expensive, the entry fees get more expensive, the training get more expensive.
It’s really more about the prestige and ego of the owners than making any actual money.
