Yup! Saw it at Catalpa last year by a smart rider
Riding Catalpa this weekend and this question stems from that very frog pond! Lol
OK, speaking of obstinate horses and water obstacles, the whip rule. My crop is a last resort. I’m a clucker and a kicker. Is the rule now 2 flicks of the crop max at one obstacle? What about if your horse refuses and you re-approach?
My understanding is twice in succession, then you must allow the horse to respond. But (correct me if I’m wrong) I think you are allowed to smack twice again if needed, after pausing. That’s the basis of whip rules in European racing.
Approach water, horse sucks behind leg. Tap behind your leg, keep going. Three strides later, horse wiggles left. Two taps on left shoulder, continue forward another few steps. At water’s edge, horse stops and plants, head down sniffing, dancing a bit Rider kicks like a monkey, horse still reluctant to enter. Tap behind saddle, horse senses backing up is not an option, goes in. Rider praises.
That’s more than 2 hits total, but it isn’t a beating. The horse was allowed the chance to do the right thing. The 2 hit rule, to me is meant to curtail punishment smacking. After a stop or runout, the horse turns away and rider is allowed to hit twice (used to be 3x) as a reprimand. Then on approach, perhaps rider gives another “I mean it!” whack just before the obstacle. I could be wrong, but as I understand it that is legal (and normal) xc riding in that situation.
I believe the BN jj’s should be people who have special educational jj classes and hundreds of years of experience – because everything seems to happen at BN! :lol::lol::lol:
One memory is another jj calling over the radio "she’s lost - she’s galloping around the field and looking for the jump - she’s going around it again - are you sure I can’t just point the way ??? " :o Rider never found the next jump and retired. Riders: Never assume that the course is the same as last year’s. :winkgrin:
Another time during a hold on course, a rider was stopped just before the water jump for a hold that ran longer than usual. Her coach, a h/j trainer, came over and explained to her in detail how to navigate the water jump (incorrectly, the trainer knew nothing about xc and was making it up as she went), while the jj watched in shock & horror. JJ sadly called it in to the TD, and the TD came out and E’d the rider and sent her back to the barn. And gave the h/j trainer a thorough dressing down.
My very first jj assignment was at Jump #1 (well supported by the start box who could see everything going on with #1). A young but excellent rider from my barn was riding in the division to get a final qualification for something or other, as I well knew. This determined young lady and her eager mare came blazing out of the start box down to Jump #1 … and sailed beautifully over the jump one level up. And went flying on toward #2.
I actually saw that error coming as I could tell that in the row of #1’s for all divisions, she was pointed toward the wrong one all the way from the start box. Lord bless her, she picked a nice solid wooden box that wasn’t the biggest one and I guess never looked at the number nailed to the front side (easily visible). I could not think of one legal thing I could do to prevent this disaster as the mare galloped happily toward it.
I wanted to radio in "cleared the level up, but would have cleared her own level had she jumped it !!! " in case that would not be penalized - I know, silly but it crossed my mind. But it’s not the done thing, I guess. I even looked back at the start box to confirm that they saw it, too - they did.
Had to call it in, and the poor girl was pulled off a jump or two later. She (with her family) had to run a whole 'nother horse trial to get that qualification. She’s since gone on to much greater things … but anyway.
One time in conversation I told that tale to a TD, and how frustrating it was that I could do nothing to warn the rider off as I watched her gallop to the wrong jump. The TD looked at me and said “Since she was approaching a jump that was a division bigger, you could have jumped up and waved her off yelling “dangerous riding!” And when she pulled up, asked her meaningfully “Do you know why I waved you off?” and turned around to look straight at the jump number without saying anything else.”
I don’t know if that is actually legit and if all TD’s would endorse it, or even allow it … but it was an interesting idea!
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My advice is to study the whip rule carefully, and then chat with the TD about it well before XC begins.
The whip rule reads more clearly than it really is in practice. And then there is what a jj thinks they see, as the jj may or may not be an eventer, or maybe not even an experienced rider. (Although at the water they will be a more experienced jj.) The shoulder; behind the leg; swat vs tap; number of times; etc. & so on.
TD’s have their own opinions of how to interpret the rule. I’d definitely get the relevant TD’s point of view, plus alert them as to my situation with my green horse, plus … well, curry favor with them that I am trying to do the right thing, both within the rules and helping the green horse become the best eventer he can be! 
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OK TD’s & course control veterans … What do you typically do about a rider overtaking another rider? Do you have control silently stand by while the riders sort it out on their own? Or do you ask a jj to alert the slower rider in front that the rider behind will catch up to them, and that at that time they should move to the side and/or circle to allow them to pass?
Only if the overtake has become definite. So often it never quite happens.
I ask because as a rider on course, I do not think I’d be able hear a rider behind me overtaking my horse, because of the noise of a XC ride. My hearing tends to be overwhelmed by the sound of the horse’s breathing, the pounding of the hooves, and a sort of wind effect sound as well (even at a canter). Even a jj giving a shout has been very startling as I didn’t hear them at all, just saw someone stand up in front of me & the horse. If I were on the slower horse in front, I don’t think I would be aware that I was being overtaken without an alert from someone on the ground.
I have listened to so many spectators and volunteers who knew little about eventing exclaim something like “Oh that rider is eliminated - she rode to the next jump through the tall grass and not in the mowed lane!” and/or “Oh that rider is eliminated - after the jump she made a big circle in the field!” and/or “Oh that rider is off course - she galloped across the pond but not where her flags were, then came back and went through her flags!”
XC rules are definitely not what people expect they will be.
This is what I love about eventing. The rider has discretion to make the best decision for herself and for her horse. 
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Anytime I have had an overtake situation, as a JJ, either the control will call it at a designated stop point (i.e. someone with a flag and stopwatch), or I as the jj in a necessary situation, will stop the rider with my own watch, as requested by control. I have never seen it not done like that.
If I hear on my radio, the faster rider clearing the fences quickly behind the rider I have approaching my fence, I will call it in quickly to control so they are aware we likely will have an overtake.
When my husband and I showed up in NC, we spent most of our first year here (we are at 11 months now) just volunteering in every capacity we could, to learn more about the sport and rules.
The first day I volunteered, it was SJ course building. I was a quick learner and worked hard, and the SJ head mentioned to the volunteer coordinator that I had done a great job.
The next day, we did dressage stewarding and then finally we went out for JJ. My husband and I were placed on separate fences due to a shortage of volunteers, it was for 5 points, and I was given some pretty hairy fences. The TD said to me after the 3rd fall “glad we had such an experienced JJ on the sunken road” I smiled and nodded, not wanting to stress him out that in actuality, it was my first day.
I love JJ the lower levels (green as grass and maiden here) not because its exciting, but because it’s so darn cute. It’s usually a pretty contained course and you will have family there, so if you were a little lenient to the 13.2 hh pony and the rider in a pink puff cap, who tried really hard to get into the water and took a step to the side, maybe a little back, but mostly to the side, you can side bar it to the mom so they know to work harder on that entry. Then you and the TD wink, because it’s so adorable, and the kid is only 6.
We have also had interesting conversations with the TD about whip rules. As we have become more experienced and the TD’s know us, some of them will ask your interpretation of the whip strikes. It doesnt mean that the TD wont still go talk to the rider, but it will color the conversation. So a few taps coming up to a scary fence in the training manner, vice 3 large smashes will be differentiated between. We still call it in, if there is a violation, but make sure the TD knows (if interested) the difference.
Lack of JJ can be a huge problem, so I am glad we have been able to volunteer as much as we have. At one event, they put husband up on the tower where he had 5 fences to oversee. I was in the maiden field with 4, plus finishing timers. My mom was visiting from Canada, and I made her take the hill behind me to catch the water entry more clearly (thanks for coming to visit mom, but we are volunteering this weekend!) . We usually have a good debrief on our day, and cover different things we have seen, for when we are eventing our youngsters.
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Re: overtaking. In most instances, the horse being passed has had trouble on course (stops, etc). If your horse is stopping at the first 3 fences, and/or you’re trotting a lot, chances are good the rider behind will catch up. As a courteous competitor, you should keep alert to your surroundings behind you and give way to the following rider when she catches up. If this happens at an obstacle, the jj may step in and warn the slow rider to stand aside.
As the following rider, when I’m getting close I’ll yell "HEADS UP! " to the one in front of me, and that’s often enough to get their attention. Of course some riders don’t know they should yield, and that’s when a jj can help.
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I JJ’d a few times and while prelim is exhilarating, I love BN and starter. OMG cuteness overload…except I remember I started at starter in my 50’s so I hope I was cure too!
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Those tiny kids out there bravely getting their ponies around are so appealing! This is an experience that I believe shapes their lives for the better, as it did for me. After you do something like that as a youngster, you know you can do just about anything.
The one thing about lenient judging is that it can teach the child that an error is not an error, and they are not prepared for the next step. Asides to parents or trainers may or may not be passed along. And they may be pooh-poohed by the child, who likes the score they got. Only to be very discouraged and upset at a future outing when the same error that had no penalties the last time does get penalties this time. Just something to keep in mind that leniency can be a bit short-sighted, and isn’t always a favor.
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When I am talking leniency it is where the pony literally may have taken a half a step backwards at the same time that it took a side step. Just like it’s hard to tell with a straight water entry at the higher levels whether or not they go backwards, or not, if it’s a sideways that may have taken less then a foot print back when it went sideways, I err on the side of the kid. One, because it’s a he said she said when it comes to the TD, and two because it is hard to tell.
When i have an experienced TD next to me, making the same call towards the young rider, I figure I am ok if it’s a straight step back, then unfortunately we can’t be lenient, and I have given the 20 for that.
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If the same standard is applied to all of the riders, then I’d agree that it is not really ‘lenient’ as much as fairly giving the rider the benefit of the doubt when a call could go either way. I totally support that. Not because a kid is a cute kid, but because it is fair for any rider.
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We had that at an upper level fence with the whip rule. We had just called the TD on an abuse of the whip rule, two actually. One where a young rider made what appeared to be an honest mistake, and it was shortly after the rule changed (I think). The taps were just taps, but one too many in succession. We had another that was overly aggressive, and 3 too many. Called the TD for both.
3rd rider comes through. 2 too many taps, obviously schooling a ditchy horse in prelim. My husband goes to call it in, hesitates when I say the number and the name to confirm it with him. It’s a rider we both respect, who is a consummate professional, and we know is just schooling a horse who dirty stopped at the last show. Called it in anyway. Fair is fair and ethical for all rides.
Trust me, I would have loved to be less lenient to some of the rides I see, but I try my hardest not to let how the rider behaves, cloud my judgement. I may just have to try less hard for the cuties (of all ages) in the low divisions.
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Meanwhile, JJ is frantically trying to determine if (1) the horse was presented, (2) was that a step back by the left hind, (3) was that crabbing motion to the right going backwards or sideways, and (4) noting rider colors and horse markings in case there is a dispute!
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During JJ meetings, the whip rule has been discussed a good bit; the takeaway that I’ve gotten is that “it depends”, and IF! the whip is used after a disobedience, you need to be carefully counting the number of whacks since it’s considered “punishment.”
I was judging the water at Oatlands last year (before they changed the whip rule from 3 to 2), and Lauren Kieffer came through on a greenish mare in the P division. Mare stopped at the brush out of the water, and Lauren gave her two HARD whacks but “withheld” the third - though she seemed to think about it; her bat was raised. On representation, the mare stopped again, same thing with the bat. Then Lauren took a different approach, and walked the mare down into the water next to the brush, stood her there for 10 seconds or so, and stroked her neck - then re-presented. Mare went the third time (and of course at this point a potentially overtaking rider was getting close!)
Anyway, re: the whip rule, the TDs are a little more “flexible” about the light tapping (often on the shoulder) on the way TO the jump; there are a lot of greenies at the lower levels, and sometimes they need encouragement - we are advised to tolerate a few taps on approach, but make note of anything harder. Potential whip abuse is like pornography: you know it when you see it.
Another note about the overtaking rider thing: in addition to clearing the way for the overtaker (which requires that the JJ go and notify the rider having issues who is now a “roadblock”), there is also the problem of the overtaker inadvertently giving the rider with issues “a lead”; we are instructed to make sure that doesn’t happen by allowing a fair bit of distance and time between the rider “playing through” and the rider having issues. (This has happened to me a couple of times as a JJ, though it’s not too common.)
The water complex situation with kids on ponies vs adults on horses; I feel that they should be treated the same since this sport is supposed to be fair and equitable. That said, there is also a bit of the benefit of the doubt with ALL riders, we want them to be able to continue and not get E’ed at the water!, so if there is a bit of foot shuffling (with a backward step) but then forward movement, call it one stop - the tricky part is when they stop two or three times and take a step back. No one wants to eliminate a rider! I always watch the feet, intently.
At Loch Moy a few weeks ago there was the full Sunken Rd. for T: a rider had stops there on the downbank, and Brian and the JJ were both watching carefully from different vantage points. There was a good bit of discussion on the radio as to how many backward steps the horse had taken, and Brian and the JJ were in disagreement; he was certain she had only had two, the JJ thought she had three. I was down over the hill judging the Quarry, and it took them a good bit of time to decide whether the rider had been eliminated - but Brian decided that it was the JJ’s call, and told us we had to stop the rider. Of course that wound up being at my fence!, and I really hated to do it 
The rider was a good sport about it, but said that she was POSITIVE that her horse had only taken two backward steps. The next day, I saw a post on FB by the same rider (I have hundreds of FB friends who are eventers), and she reiterated that she was puzzled by her E - but very proud of her mare all the same since she rocked the rest of the course. I didn’t post to tell her that I was the one who had to stop her, poor thing… Her husband had been standing by my jump as his wife came down the hill, so I apologized to both of them at having to end her good run.
These are tough calls for jump judges!
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@Dr. Doolittle Do you count each backward step during a single presentation as a refusal? I thought it was “per presentation”, not per footstep backwards. If I was presenting to water and my horse refused and then took four steps back before I could spur him forward again but then went through, how many refusals would that be?
I’ve been a JJ in the past but far from an expert. I tell them that and they usually put me at the easy ones.
This is a really informative thread!
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@halt - no, if the horse stops and runs backwards (LOL), it counts as one stop. The next presentation (once the horse STOPS backing up!), clock starts again, so to speak: in your scenario (since the horse then GOES) it would be one stop.
If the horse stops again (and it’s a true “stop”, not just a pause - which is allowed at water and jumps without height like banks and ditches), that’s two; if he backs up then that’s still two, until re-presented again, etc.
It can be confusing since there is often a lot of foot shuffling and “do-si-do” going on; the hardest thing to assess is when the rider and horse stand there, having a discussion, and the horse moves feet around - that’s why it’s necessary to watch the feet very carefully. Stepping to the SIDE (as long as it’s not BACK) is okay, but that can be a bit of a judgment call.
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Having to chuckle … at the last BN horse trials (unrecognized) a greenie trotted-walked in slower and slower to the water until he was hanging on the edge with the tips of his toes just shy of being wet, but he was leaning so far over he was almost falling in and he was still kind of swaying - was he stopped? or not ??? Definitely cautious, but looking as if he had the intention to keep going just as soon as he made a quick check for sharks. The rider was encouraging and clucking to keep those feet in gear, and up on the hill we were counting seconds “1 second, 2 seconds … there he goes!” We decided it was not a stop. The jj called the TD over to hear the story, reluctant to make the call himself, even though he was experienced at the position. In the end the rider got the benefit of the doubt, no penalties.
The horse never anchored for even an instant. He just - paused? checked the surface glare? looked for the bottom? But he went! 
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