First dog show as spectator

[Houndhill]

But, OP is in Canada, so process of finishing a champion is just slightly different than previously described in this thread. Back when I lived in Upstate NY in the 1970s, I finished three or four Irish Wolfhounds in Canada. Back then, they only needed 10 points to finish (as opposed to 15 points in the US), and needed no majors! Now dogs need at least one major to finish in Canada.

I recall I thought the atmosphere at the Canadian shows was very friendly and relaxed, compared to shows in the US. I don’t know if that is still the case, I only occasionally attend Specialty shows in Canada, I haven’t been to an all-breed show in Canada in many years.

OP, I am so glad to hear you enjoyed spectating at an all-breed show! Entries at all-breed AKC shows have been declining in the past few years, we are always trying to figure out how to increase entries, as well as attract new people to the sport.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=S1969;7684286]
I’ve never really seen a judge take issue with an exuberant dog, and in fact, I know some handlers that have encouraged their dog to be a little naughty in the ring to show off their personality – sometimes allowing them to jump or bark at the end of the down and back. [/QUOTE]

I have. At least twice and I could’ve kissed the judges each time.

The barking is obnoxious and should not be tolerated. A genuine unexpected woof is okay but the handlers who encourage it while pretending not to should be called out. The spectators usually giggle & laugh and applaud and in a setting where really a few of the dogs are all well-qualified to win that little edge of the public cheering for the little scamp is unfair.

Many years ago there was a little beagle who did this. I had one of his daughters - the dog was a good dog and deserved a lot of wins, but IMO they got far too cutsey-wootsey with the barking and jumping up and down, which they definitely taught him to do. It was very disruptive. On at least two occasions in the group ring very famous & very well-respected judges told the handler to “shut that dog up.” The rest of us could’ve applauded right then. These two old-school judges had no patience for that ploy but they (the judges) were pretty much the biggest ones judging at that time; most of the other judges bought into the cutesy stuff, but not these two. You showed under them correctly. You don’t think the beagle’s handlers knew that their barking and jumping little muffin was causing some of the other dogs to be perhaps a shade distracted while the judge was looking at them?

[scruffy_the_cat]

Thanks for the answers! I am a novice in this world despite owning a GCH. He finished his Grand as a puppy but with a handler since I never expected to have a show quality dog or be part of the confo world. I am now a beginner handler and just learning the ropes for myself. Next dog will be owner handled if I can brave out the social stuff.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=Polydor;7685739]
That must have felt good! lol

What breed do/did you show?

P.[/QUOTE]

That was with beagles.

Which is as good a place as any to point out that we won Best of Variety, not Best of Breed, because some breeds are like that…

Since Beagles are shown in two size varieties their win is not Best of Breed, but Best of Variety, so both the under 13" BOV and the 13-15" BOV get to compete in the group, so that’s why there are 2 beagles in the group.

Cocker Spaniels (the American ones) compete in different varieties of color, and Dachshunds in different varieties of coat (Smooth, Wire-haired, Long-haired), so if you see “Best of Variety” instead of “Best of Breed” that’s why. Each variety is awarded points. For beagles, seriously, there’s no longer any earthly reason why they’re separate, it’s only on size, but the old ways still stay and I’m sure the breed club would rather keep more opportunities for showing & points than to eliminate it.

If there is a Beagle only Specialty show, though, like the Parent Breed Club hosts every year, then, and only at such “specialty” show, will the best 13" and best 15" BOV compete against each other for a BOB, but at the regular dog shows, breeds like beagles, cocker spaniels, and dachshunds award points and BOV for each variety of their breed and all the BOVs get to compete in the Group competition.

[scruffy_the_cat]

Anne FS- I loved your story of winning over the mean folks.

Also, my dog can be exuberant in the ring to my great embarrassment. We have worked on it and worked on it, but when he goes through those ring gates, he gets a little high. When he’s too high I totally agree with NOT awarding him anything. His dam barked her way to her #1 spot so I guess he comes by it naturally but still- it’s kind of mortifying especially when he is NOT like that at any other time.

[Anne_FS]

Also, when you asked if “trainability/behavior” comes into play, you got good answers. I’ll only add that a dog that snaps at or bites the judge will be excused from the ring, as will a dog that shows excessive fear or shyness. As to the second, a lot of times the judge will just put that one at the back of the line and not place it anywhere, but the biting, snapping, or growling is cause for dismissal.

I’m old enough to remember that terriers used to be asked to “spar.” The judge would narrow it down to his top dogs and they’d be asked to face one another at a distance of a few feet, on leads of course and never touching, and the judge would look for the, shall we say, feisty reaction they immediately took by lunging towards each other ready to fight. That was considered proper terrier behavior up into the 1980s. Can you imagine that today?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7685743]
I have. At least twice and I could’ve kissed the judges each time.

The barking is obnoxious and should not be tolerated. A genuine unexpected woof is okay but the handlers who encourage it while pretending not to should be called out. [/QUOTE]

Well, yes, there certainly is a difference between obnoxious and exuberant. My understanding of my dog’s great grandfather was that he would give a spin and a woof at the end of the down and back - because he was a goof and the handler encouraged it because that exuberance helped. Standing at the end of the lead and barkING is very difference than a bark.

And I think it also depends on the breed and the expected temperament. Probably would never be considered ok for a stoic working breed to act like a goof and spin and woof in the ring (so it would not be encouraged), but for other breeds (I have Brittanys) it is not out of character. It’s not uncommon to see handlers “revving up” their Brittanys before going around so they have ears and tails up and show their reach and drive. A little galloping or jumping can be managed better than a dull trip around the ring.

My dog has a fine line between “playing” and “over the top.” Luckily he’s not a barker but he’s a jumper. Our first trip in the Group ring was embarrassing as he was accurately described as “Tigger” on his down and back. But, that day he was a little sassy in the breed ring and I think the judge appreciated it. Just hard to get some sass…without getting too much. :lol:

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=scruffy the cat;7685760]
Anne FS- I loved your story of winning over the mean folks. [/QUOTE]

Thank you. I had food poisoning that day, too, which I apparently contracted at a dinner the night before. I had to stop twice on the way to the show to pull over and throw up. I was so incredibly ill I felt awful and several people said I looked white as a sheet, but I went anyway because I knew that if even one of us pulled entries the points would drop and we both (me & the idiot couple) had a dog who only needed 2 points to finish. Then to have made that effort to get their not only for me but for them, too, so one of us at least would get 2 points, to have them pull their dog and flat out tell me why…Ugh.
When I got home I found that 4 of the people we’d had dinner with the night before (there were about 10 people) had also come down with FP.

Good luck with your dog! I have many more fun memories of dog shows than that bad one, which actually was a great one for me. Many, many more fun ones, and my dogs all loved showing. We showed in obedience, too, and at the same shows, which everybody thought was nuts but the dogs never got mixed up as to what ring they were in.

[scruffy_the_cat]

Oh ugh, poor you! That sounds like an epic day though- one for the story books. Glad you came out ahead.

I would love to know someone like you “in real life”. We have found that breaking into this world has been hard. I got into it a little backwards so now I am just starting to make friends, 3+ years after I started my dog. We also just decided to retire him as we had some stud inquiries and I started the health screening process and found out he was sterile. SO many folks said to show him anyway, but I think that would be dishonest. So until there’s more room in my house, we will be out of the breed ring. He is also starting his herding and obedience career so we have lots of things to occupy us in the meantime.

[S1969]

scruffy - aren’t you in the Northeast? I feel like we talked about this once. What is your breed again?

[scruffy_the_cat]

I am indeed in the Northeast. I’m in collies (smooth).

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7685743]
I have. At least twice and I could’ve kissed the judges each time.

The barking is obnoxious and should not be tolerated. A genuine unexpected woof is okay but the handlers who encourage it while pretending not to should be called out. The spectators usually giggle & laugh and applaud and in a setting where really a few of the dogs are all well-qualified to win that little edge of the public cheering for the little scamp is unfair.

Many years ago there was a little beagle who did this. I had one of his daughters - the dog was a good dog and deserved a lot of wins, but IMO they got far too cutsey-wootsey with the barking and jumping up and down, which they definitely taught him to do. It was very disruptive. On at least two occasions in the group ring very famous & very well-respected judges told the handler to “shut that dog up.” The rest of us could’ve applauded right then. These two old-school judges had no patience for that ploy but they (the judges) were pretty much the biggest ones judging at that time; most of the other judges bought into the cutesy stuff, but not these two. You showed under them correctly. You don’t think the beagle’s handlers knew that their barking and jumping little muffin was causing some of the other dogs to be perhaps a shade distracted while the judge was looking at them?[/QUOTE]

I imagine you are referring to Uno, the top winning beagle:

http://www.google.com/search?q=uno+beagle&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

I loved this dog, he did bark in the ring and was certainly trained to act cute, but IMHO was a worthy dog, and went on to become a therapy dog, and did so much to generate good publicity for show dogs.

I’m fact, when I broke my leg a couple of years ago (yes, a horse kicked me), I hired Uno’s handler to get the last point on my wolfhound bitch, who went on to win our National Specialty. I had admired the close connection Uno’s handler had with him, though I would have been very displeased if he had made my wolfhound bark in the ring!

But, I hear you, I dislike seeing non-breed typical behavior in the ring rewarded, like mastiffs and greyhounds rewarded for leaping about, or cute ring behavior rewarded when the type and soundness is not there. The “curmudgeonly” judges should be applauded for discouraging this sort of behavior.

[Anne_FS]

Nope, not at all. I’m referring to the beagle 20 years before Uno. Where do you think they got the idea?

Neither Uno nor the other dogs who do this need to do it. They’re very good dogs. The only thing I don’t like about Uno is his light eyes.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7686119]
Nope, not at all. I’m referring to the beagle 20 years before Uno. Where do you think they got the idea?

Neither Uno nor the other dogs who do this need to do it. They’re very good dogs.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I’m glad to hear that!

I think Uno well deserved his many wins.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=S1969;7685767]
My understanding of my dog’s great grandfather was that he would give a spin and a woof at the end of the down and back - because he was a goof and the handler encouraged it because that exuberance helped. [/QUOTE]

We’ll agree to disagree. Dogs who spin and woof every single time they do the down & back at every single show are not showing exuberance. They’ve been taught to do that. Any dog in that ring could be taught the exact same thing but their handlers are too classy to do it. I wish that every time one of these cutesy-pie handlers do this that every other dog in the ring with him would do the exact same thing. :lol: The judges would put a stop to it really fast.

There are some judges who won’t tolerate it and you’ll notice that when these dogs compete under them, well, whaddya know, silence from the “exuberant” dog.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7686130]
We’ll agree to disagree. Dogs who spin and woof every single time they do the down & back at every single show are not showing exuberance. They’ve been taught to do that. Any dog in that ring could be taught the exact same thing but their handlers are too classy to do it. I wish that every time one of these cutesy-pie handlers do this that every other dog in the ring with him would do the exact same thing. :lol: The judges would put a stop to it really fast.

There are some judges who won’t tolerate it and you’ll notice that when these dogs compete under them, well, whaddya know, silence from the “exuberant” dog.[/QUOTE]

Eh…I will agree to disagree. Showing for Group and BIS is ALL about training and showmanship. At that level…there really are no bad dogs, and it’s all about ring presence, type, and “pizazz”. I have no more objection to the dog that spins and woofs, than to the one that is taught to back itself up into a perfect free bait stack.

Which is one more reason that I don’t really show my boy as a special. I’m not interested in the work that goes into that level of dog shows…I could get my dog to demonstrate more reach and drive if I wanted to train him to “show” in the ring…but I don’t really want to. But some dogs actually like to be shown, and if he did…I would consider trying.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7686119]
Nope, not at all. I’m referring to the beagle 20 years before Uno. Where do you think they got the idea?

Neither Uno nor the other dogs who do this need to do it. They’re very good dogs. The only thing I don’t like about Uno is his light eyes.[/QUOTE]

From the AKC Beagle Standard of the Breed: Eyes-Eyes large, set well apart-soft and houndlike-expression gentle and pleading; of a brown or hazel color

[Anne_FS]

I’m extremely familiar with the beagle standard. I helped create the first breed video for beagles by travelling to Virginia and using one of my dogs and handling dogs from other people.

One of the hallmarks of the breed is expression: “eyes large, set well apart-soft and houndlike-expression gentle and pleading.” SOFT expression. You just don’t get soft expression with a light eye. Breed standards are not changed lightly, and beagle people who were old when I was a kid starting out knew that they missed the boat back in the 1950s, which is when the last revision took place. It was an oversight. Except for the red & whites & lemons, who sometimes have a lighter eye, it was an assumption that the eye would be dark except in the red & whites and the lemons, who had the hazel eye. Big mistake. Huge mistake. It therefore allows the tri-color beagles to get away with those hard-looking hazel eyes. By the 1980s we were losing the soft expression in the breed and that’s one of the reasons.

[Anne_FS]

Judges’ education for beagles also brings up eye color. I’ll give only 2 examples from the parent club (The National Beagle Club) itself. There are plenty more:

“The shape of the eye should be round to almond, always soft and expressive. Color of the Beagle’s eyes should fit the coloration of the hound, but preferably darker rather than lighter. While pigmented eye rims are necessary to achieve a “soft” expression, an abundance of black pigmentation, “mascara”, is not. A “gentle, pleading expression” is a factor of a correct eye shape and size, combined with a generally darker eye color. A smaller eye is to be penalized, as are yellow or blue eyes as they give an improper expression.”

and also:

“Large “pop” eyes are to be frowned upon, as are small pig eyes. Yellow eyes are completely foreign, as they do not give the mild appealing expression asked for in the standard. (We see far more small eyes than any other eye problems) Dilute colored beagles may have lighter eyes, not all of them do, but those who do, are not as acceptable.”

[Houndhill]

So apologize for hijacking this thread, to talk about eye color!

Ann FS, I totally hear you about preference for dark eyes in beagles, a breed which I have only judged in Sweepstakes so far. I very much share that preference! In my breed (Irish Wolfhounds) it is listed in order of preference, as number 16 “eyes, dark”.

But actually, it is much more important to me. I so dislike a light eye in my personal hounds! So tends to give that hard look. And yet, when I am judging, I have to consider the light eye in perspective of total conformation, and forgive it to the extent that superior structure/movement might dictate. We have to judge to the standard of the breed.

However, in my breeding program, I require dark eyes, since that is what you look at constantly.

The lighter eye can see just as well, and hawks and wolves typically have lighter eyes. But, that very dark eye is so much more appealing a look!

However, I have seen a dark eye look blank, and a lighter eye look more intelligent, so it is not only about the color. Certainly shape of the eye gives expression too, in IWs the round eye is not desirable, a more almond shaped eye is more correct.

But in any dog breed, “someone is home” is so much more pleasing, some dogs can look more like a fish in expression! This is not desirable in any breed. The eyes and expression are so important in any breed, even though structure and movement are so key.