I do have to say when I was a junior I always preferred being in the Open division versus in a division of those my age. I could not – and never would be able to even now – compete with the YRs on their $45k horses. They are something else.
Being an adult now – it is hard for me to begrudge the AA seniors that have horses made for them. If I could afford it, I would also buy something easily going so I could make my move up without enduring so many training set backs (lol!!!).
RAyers did describe what my concern would be – another tangential concern is that presently, all the funding and money is going to top riders with very little trickling down into the backbone of the sport. The sport keeps getting more and more expensive, and the backbone is gradually being whittled off.
The title of the thread, at least, makes me think of the USHJA model of 1st and 2nd year hunters. And if we’re basing the idea off of that, frankly, we already have it: the YEH classes. Those are the equivalents to the USHJA green hunters. They’re meant for the talented big money horses to be shown off before they hit the higher levels (whether that actually happens is the question).
Something that might fit the bill is the New Event Horse program. It hasn’t really gotten off the ground, but it’s a similar format to the YEH classes, but BN height max and no horse age restrictions. I think if something like that got traction, it could fit what you’re looking for.
Or just buy a $75k Prelim horse to go BN. Well, that’s already happening. So, if one doesn’t wish to compete against that person, you advice is to “change the approach?” What does that mean - stop caring? Or stop competing?
"If you don’t want to ride against pros, enter the Rider division. " I do. Against riders with $75k imported prelim horses who have been doing BN for 5 years. That’s the whole point.
"because of all these divisions, riders ARE getting priced out and leaving the sport. " can you clarify how? Splitting divisions appears on the face of it to be a relatively low cost endeavor, but perhaps you know more of the mechanics.
My free or cheapy TBs have beaten many a $100K + horse with AAs. In Canada we only get JR/SR/Open. Open means you have shown the level above successfully, doesn’t even split ammie or pro here. Shown Novice? Youre Open BN. Shown Training? You’re open Novice then.
I showed this weekend again an Olympian, and I think 8 professionals? Most of them beat my on my very nice young horse. So what?
Price of horse really does mean nothing. A green horse is only green for so long. Train longer and show when you’re competitive.
When you split divisions you literally have to increase costs simply by needing to purchase more prizes, it’s not just about a simple click on the computer. But then there is also dilution of the competitor pool as well. Do you intend for this to be a simple every rider competes over the same courses as say Open riders? Or do you want simplified challenges? If so, then labor and time costs go up. If you think that just tacking another set of ribbons onto a division is what would work, then you basically dilute the competition pool and still let the 75k horses beat the 1k horses. Or will you put a purchase price limit? Will you need to add longer days to the officials or more officials? Costs go up and entry costs go up.
What are your criteria?
As noted, the YEH is the equivalent of the 1st and second year greens.
As for my “approach” comment, the comes from personal experience. I got my ass kicked regularly by folks like Bruce Davidson, Tammie Smith, Kim Severson, Mike Huber,… If the end I learned that the simple fact I was COMPETING against them and those horses, and even holding my own on XC and stadium taught me more about myself, my training philosophy, what my horse means to me than anything else. I am proud of what I did and my 12th in OI at the AECs 14 years ago against those guys and my 6th at CCI** 15 years ago are my most prized ribbons because I worked for them and I kept changing and growing as a rider/trainer/horseman to get them.
And the friends I made along the way (including folks who are here on COTH)? Fucking priceless. The best people in my life.
Simply a set of ribbons for horses + riders in their first year at a level - not required to even list them in a separate division, kind of like a “high scoring TB” type prize I’ve seen. That said, if my local events only separate jr, sr and open (with no horse or rider divisions, and only A and B divisions within a group if there are 30 or more in there) there must be a reason for it?
For ex, why have 75 people split this way:
Open BN
Senior BN Rider A
Senior BN Rider B
Junior BN Rider
When you could have:
Open BN
Senior BN
Senior BN Green
Junior BN
IOW if you have 50+ Senior BN riders, instead of splitting A + B, split green and not green. Or just ribbon the greenies separately.
It’s not about not working hard, or not feeling the pride of a hard won ribbon: the rule can be that a greenie can only compete one year perhaps. But it incentivizes people who spend so much money and time off work to do this, the same people who buy the horses from those trainers, and keep them in a living, and as any horse rider knows a neck rub will often get you better results than a smack with the whip.
God knows we don’t want to get to a place where like hunters where I see people throwing ribbons in the showgrounds trash because they’re not blue… I treasure every one I get, but if people never get any… eventually they give up and go away to spend their money and time elsewhere.
(it’s not personal: my 4 yr old just came 4th at her first event and my first in years too - we’re working hard.)
The Jockey Club donates the TB ribbons-- if it’s something you would like to see, maybe email a local event and offer to sponsor a first year division or prize. Is this something you want to see at a certain level? Is it for amateurs only or open to everyone? It seems like barring a disaster the purpose-bred very expensive young horses ridden by pros or wealthy amateurs are largely going to win anyway, just like in the first year green hunters?
There is space on the entry forms in my area for horse and rider experience. Sadly, our numbers have dwindled to the point that we rarely split divisions anyway.
My parents always told me that my $1000 shitter was unlikely to beat the $25k show horses… but when we did, it would be all the sweeter.
Of course, saddle time and lessons were a greater predictor of results: people with indoors who rode and took lessons all winter often had the advantage regardless.
As RAyers noted, my proudest achievements were my placings on my $2200 horse at Intermediate/Classic (with steeplechase) events, on a severe budget. I worked for those, I enjoyed my horse, I met great people
Now I’m an out of shape AA with confidence issues getting my @ss handed to me at 2’6" eventing yet, I am still taking lessons, learning, enjoying my horse, and spending time with great people.
I am not RAyers, but I think I know what he means.
When I was a Junior, at recognized shows, Junior Hunters jumped 3’6". So horses that had good form at 3’6" were expensive, but horses that only had good form at 2’6" or 3’ had no value as show hunters, and were cheaper. “Ordinary” people could afford them.
Then they introduced the Children’s Hunters (and later the Adult Hunters). (This was INTENDED to be a division for riding students who did not own their own horses.) Suddenly a horse that had good form at 3’ (even if it “sucked” at 3’6") could be a successful show hunter, and the ones that could win at that height became expensive. “Ordinary” people couldn’t afford them. They were “Priced out”.
Then they introduced 2’6" Hunter divisions, and the cycle repeated itself. Horses that could jump a 2’6" course in good form could win a lot of ribbons, and became expensive- even if they were incompetent at 3’ and dangerous at 3’6". “Ordinary” people couldn’t afford them either.
I don’t think hating on people who can afford the more expensive horse is fair either. Everyone has their budget and their reasons. IMO its putting yourself in the right division, which I don’t see happening often, in Canada.
It doesn’t matter how expensive the horse is, its based on the pilot and their ability. Holly Jacks horse was showing a training level rider the ropes, they had an unfortunate fall. She’s on a sweet going horse, but still the rider has to have the ability. So the fanciest horses, the most expensive horses really is a stupid excuse to be poo-pooed about the divisions.
I really think that the divisions just need to be regulated better, by riders and show organizers. I entered Prelim Senior, and yet was grouped with Juniors. Mostly because there is never enough numbers in either groups. I get that, is it fair, absolutely not. At the end of the day though anything can happen with any rider.
More divisions isn’t going to help numbers I don’t think. I really don’t think you should be upset if you’re showing against a well experienced horse, with a less experienced rider, they still have to manage all 3 phases. I would understand being upset against a strong rider and horse, but even a professional and a greenie have their issues. If this was hunter land or dressage land it would be a bit different, but eventing is three phases that you need to string together on that day. Dressage is super influential now, and most riders work the least on their dressage these days
How do you define “green?” Rider? Horse? The combination? If we go by your complaint that the $75k horses are always winning how would you judge a first time eventer on their $200k jumper or dressage horse who just burned out on their world? They they are also green.
How does a $85k horse get to be $85k when it starts out as a $1k horse? My $3k OTTB horse competes well against those more expensive horses. Why? Yes, I did watch his movement when I got him. But that is only a part of it. Dedicated, diligent work with planning and intent is necessary. While your horse may never score high on the collectives you can hammer the competition on the movements, accuracy, consistency, rider aids,… and stay in striking distance of a win. 2/3 of the game is over fences and that has nothing to do with cost of a horse.
Recent eventing data analysis (from the eventing data analysis committee) show dressage score has no bearing on jumping scores. So you can still beat them over fences.
yet, I am still taking lessons, learning, enjoying my horse, and spending time with great people.
