Menu

Stay in Touch
Sign up for ENews
Subscribe Now

Unlimited access >

Menu

Florestan or son Florencio

Sport Horse Breeding
#21

I just checked with Andrea Sieg at Westphalians for USA and she confirmed that she does has Florestan semen for sale and is accepting orders through Feb 20th.

http://www.westphalians.com

[QUOTE=honeylips;6121074]
I agree with Antero that, so far, my favorite offspring of his is Fuerst Piccolo.[/QUOTE]

A minor correction, but FP is actually Florestan’s grandson (Fidertanz / Mephistopheles / Rembrant). He is incredible. I have seen him in person and though petite, he is an expressive and elastic mover and has amazing presence.

#22

True FP is a grandson of Florestan. I have a top FP son myself - Fuerst Fiorano (Fuerst Piccolo/Donnerbube II)

But as another tiny correction - FP is not a son of Fidertanz. He is a son of the great Fidermark! I have seen him as well many times and a good friend rode him for years. FP is very very rideable. He is not always consistent in producing small however - I have seen many tall ones from him. Including my own who is >180cm.

Another very good Florestan son in the USA - is Florianus. He comes out of a terrific damline - and is a very good GP competitor himself.

#23

[QUOTE=honeylips;6121520]
But as another tiny correction - FP is not a son of Fidertanz. [/QUOTE]

Ha! Very true. I have been filling out entry forms for a Fidertanz gelding this week and mistyped FP’s pedigree. :smiley:

Yes, FP is a son of Fidermark. My stallion Fideracci was also a son of Fidermark, but he unfortunately died in 2007. Such an amazing line!!!

#24

I do agree - it is my favorite line.

Here is my FP son:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x96/melissamulchahey/Lamplight%202011%20USEF%20YH%20DH%20Championships/furstfiorano.jpg

#25

[QUOTE=bluemoonfarms;6120455]
Florencio’s semen is sold as EVA positive. I know awhile back there was some talk that he had become EVA negative but I don’t know what the particulars were about that. I do know for sure that now he is sold as EVA positive.[/QUOTE]

When I bred to Florencio (fresh) he was negative. The mare is from 2005. I wanted to repeat the breeding, but was informed he was now EVA positive. As neither the vet I worked with at that time was really informed about EVA and the people I had boarded the dam were a bit afraid I did not breed back. I did not want to be blamed if something with one of the other 15 pregnant mares would have went wrong. At that time the german distributor offered to have the mare inseminated and quarantined at their place, so it would have worked well.

Bottomline he must have beome postive somewhere between 2004 and 2005.

I bred my Florencio mare three times to Benetton Dream and have had two very very nice foals.

#26

I can’t find a conformation picture of Furst Piccolo. Anyone else find one?

Who would you say has a better loin connection? Florestan/florencio/furst piccolo?

Who (of offspring you have seen) tends to add more knee?

I have looked briefly for EVA positive information, but I am just getting into frozen and don’t know the protocals/risks/etc. If anyone would like to pm me info or their experiences with using EVA positive semen that would be great. I’ll do a search on here tonight when i get home.

TIA

#27

Furst Piccolo will add more knee than Florestan. I don’t know of any “side view” photos of him. There is plenty of video of him competing. He puts a good character on as well. His son Fleury is also quite interesting.

#28

I am a huge fan of Florestan I. The offspring I have known and ridden are all generous, trainable, attractive horses. As many have stated his progeny generally have 3 good gaits and with good training lots make it to PSG/I1 without issue. Personally I have found Florestan I’s are VERY easy to sit. They are very smooth rides, with soft steady backs which might not seem like a big deal but it is. Ad.Am. or Junior/YR’s (the bulk of the NA dressage market) can ride them well, keeping their leg and position easily because there is typically not a huge amount of bounce in their trot’s. The only real negative I can think of it a bit of inconsistency in the feet. The ones I have known have had smaller/upright feet so I would use a mare with a good solid foot and nice lower leg conf.

We have a good Premium Florencio mare that was bred by Ludwig Kathmann. She is almost bombproof in her temperament but is out of a quiet Donnerhall linebred (Dormello/Donnerschwee) mare. She produced her first foal in 2011 by Harvard and he was a GOV Premium Foal/Stallion Prospect (link to their photos: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.252644011417211.83546.123056907709256&type=3&l=905d7e31d8) I have met a tricky Florencio in FL last winter that had a horrible rearing habit when challenged, so I also believe they can indeed be inconsistent in the character….

#29

I got my Florencio breeding through Keswick Equine Clinic, who advised I follow EVA protocol. I vaccinated and quarantined under the advisement of Dr. Timoney (U of Kentucky). He was interested to check the EVA status of Florencio, since Nijhof tried a protocol to reverse his EVA+ status, and asked that I send him a sample of the semen I was using. I sent him a tiny sample and it indeed tested positive. There was nothing in the paperwork accompanying the semen that indicated EVA status.

Dr. Mellish at Keswick was very helpful, willing to discuss EVA and EVA protocol with both me and my vet.

#30

engl feature of florestan and some of his sons incl fürst piccolo:
http://www.hippologi.com/WAFtheFline.htm

engl feature of fidermark:
http://www.hippologi.com/Fidermarkengl.htm

re the OPs intial question florestan vs florencio:

not a comparison at all as florencio had it all (incl stunning self performance in sport and hyped marketing accordingly)
despite his EVA status (in europe not such a big stigma as in the US) he truly had all the chances of the world incl number of mares - and good ones, too.
however, the stallion failed to produce himself at all.
i was a big fan of him in his young years since i was hoping for a second fidermark (who had meanwhile died), florencio’s self appearance under saddel suggested he was a lot like fidermark:
compact, round and dominated by naturally given elasticity.
my hopes were high.
other than fidermark, who after all stamped his get in many respects (type being only one, elasticty however is what i look for, more) florencio doesn’t.
while i forgive when a stallion (or mare) do not stamp their get in type or shape (they run in all shapes) i do require the dominating feature that made florencio big:
his elasticty and “swing”, resulting from push and impulsion.
my major impression from many of the florencio kids under saddle i have seen in the recent years is rather the contrary:
they tend to not make use of their back and that might indeed be a feature resulting from the variety of type he throws - the lack of compact shape often leaves an “open” back.
and he still hasn’t delivered a single stamp of himself, either.
s.th. fidermark provided for in his son fürst piccolo and some other licensed sons who disappeared from the scene completely.
reason i chose fidermark daughters to build my breeding program on - fabrice is a clone of her sire. http://www.hippologi.com/fabriceengl.htm

but this topic was about florestan vs florencio.
and having talked about florencio and his development, the major contrast between florencio and his sire florestan is the simple fact that florestan started with nothing at all (other than his son):
no sport, no media, no marketing.
like donnerhall he started his first breedings still in live coverage and only after the first promising crops were on the ground the state stud decided to take him home to warendorf and offer fresh semen, rather than leaving him at an oustide local station where his accessabiliy was limited.
florestan succeeded out of himself by nothing but realistically valuable crop on the ground.
this development deserves even higher respect given the fact that in his early (life coverage) years he did recieve all kind of mares incl lesser valuable ones given the fact that he was simply “available” nearby.
yet, many of his foals developed to become valuable riding horses. so did many of his sons.

after fidermark had died i spent lots of years looking for the next best son of florestan to breed my mares to, intentionally searching for some inbreed.
i haven’t found him yet and that again is also owed to the fact that meanwhile there are so many sons of florestan on the ground and widely spread all over the place that only very few have enough mares to be bred to in order to really value their genetic quality.
i have seen dozens of florestan sons at the westfalian licensings in the recent years (same is true for sons of fidermark) and some did gain my attention but they were sold in hands were they were not developed according to what i though they might produce, so no qualified statement to be made about their real breeding value.
on the other hand there were a few spectacular sons of both of them who truly enjoyed nowadays marketing&media circus and as such did get to breed enough mares. none of these so far convinced me by the quality of his get in a way that i would choose him to (in)breed my mares to.

however, i am sure there is the one or the other son of either of them out there who might be the ideal successor of his sire, only that they are hard to find since most of them don’t breed enough to really judge them by their get.

#31

There is an EVA positive stallion in the US. Their homepage and links were the sources I used when I informed myself in 2005 about the desease. You can search for that. and also search on this Forum especially post in 2005 should be found and I think I asked about it that time.
Is the explanation on the homepage of Contucci ? Please correct me if I am wrong I do not want to put any stallion to an EVA positive state that is not !!! And will correct this post immediatly if I am wrong with my rememberance.
Sabine: EVA is an issue in Germany, because as soon as a stallion has it, his semen is not allowed to be transported / send out (EU law). No idea what hole they found with that, but the dutch are clever :wink: EVA can cause problems. Mares that are pregnant and get the virus from another mare freshly inseminated and freshly “ill” with the actual desease can loose their foal. The actual desease (A shorter phase in the beginning like a flu) comes along with temperature and is not really something that one can take lightheartedly.

EVA does not hinder the mare that is inseminated to get in foal and will not result in a loss of that foal when it is born. Neither does the foal get the desease. It may have antibodies. The mare insemiated will be EVA positive aswell if not vaccinated. Vaccination is good, but I know people that just inseminate their mares, put them in quarantine into a seperated field for a few weeks and that’s it. Nothing cheaper than that. (So that no other pregnant mares get the desease and loose their foals). It goes from one horse to another via liquid. So sneezing will transport it e.g.

In Germany we do not have the vaccination with the real living stuff (as it is called in german other than in the US), to that solution is sometimes the better than vaccinating with the other stuff that you can get in Germany.
Why it may not be considered so dramatical in Germany may be, because a lot of mares are already EVA positive and no one knows it. It becomes important, if you want to export to certain countries (I believe england and South Africa doe not allow any horse with antibodies for EVA - hope I rememebr this also right…)

You see, I made my homework years back. At that time the only sources I found were in english and neither the vet I used at that time nor the people at the barn spoke english … I told my vet at thaat time to call the university of Hannover Dr. Sieme as Kareen told me to tell him. It was rather difficult at that time as he seemed not to appear unknowing but also had no source to look it up. It was a good but very rural vet at that time.

#32

[QUOTE=alexandra;6122789]
There is an EVA positive stallion in the US. Their homepage and links were the sources I used when I informed myself in 2005 about the desease. You can search for that. and also search on this Forum especially post in 2005 should be found and I think I asked about it that time.
Is the explanation on the homepage of Contucci ? Please correct me if I am wrong I do not want to put any stallion to an EVA positive state that is not !!! [/QUOTE]

Not Contucci. You are probably thinking about Contango (Iron Spring Farm).

No, but if the mare has a foal at foot when she is inseminated with positive semen, the foal is at huge risk of coming into contact with her post-insemination vaginal secretions and therefore contracting EVA (which can develop into a serious respiratory illness - not something most breeders want to risk in a young foal).

I wonder how they manage to keep exporting the Florencio semen… :confused:

#33

You guys rock! Thank you!

Fannie Mae - Thank you so much for all of your insight. PS. I love your mare! Which I am sure you hear all the time, haha.

Alexandra - Thanks for explaining the EVA. Good news is that its NOT an issue for me at all. She is a maiden and the only other horses on the property are adults.

Doesnt the vaccine cause them to have antibodies? So then lets say the horse goes FEI and cant compete in england?? LOL. Seems silly.

Thanks again everyone!! Feel free to share more about the F-line boys!

#34

The answer to this – according to Dr. Timoney, who is studying it right now – is that there is minimal risk if the mare has been previously vaccinated. She does pass antibodies on to the foal.

There is, of course, huge risk to the unvaccinated mare and her foal. But, according to my vet clinic and Dr. Timoney, minimal risk to the vaccinated mare and her foal. EVA-vaccinated standardbred mares are routinely bred to EVA+ stallions with foals at foot in this country, indeed, by my vet’s practice.

I know there’s a lot of talk on this board about how dangerous it is to breed an EVA+ stallion to a mare with a foal at foot. Believe me, I’ve read the threads. But, having heard directly from Timoney – perhaps THE world expert on EVA – and hearing my own vet clinic’s experience with the practice, I chose to follow their advice. I discussed what I’ve read on CoTH at length with three vets at my clinic, one of whom said “What? Never breed an EVA-vaccinated mare with a foal at foot to an EVA+ stallion? That’s done all the time.” So, I bred an EVA-vaccinated mare to Florencio with a foal at foot and you know what? They are both just fine.

It’s taken me a long time to decide to share this because I know it’s contrary to what is frequently posted here when EVA protocol is discussed, but I feel it’s important to make informed decisions based on expert opinion. Don’t take my word for it, though – call Dr. Timoney yourself. I’ve found him very willing to discuss what he knows.

#35

A direct Florestan I son who is getting used a lot is Freestyle in Canada. He is now approved with something like 13 registries, including VhW, and several other verbands, Danish, Belgium, etc. He also has an approved son approved Westf.Verband, RPSI,and some others. He is pretty consistent to throw a nice modern type, long correct legs, easy temperament, rideability, lovely movement and dressage talent, and people here really like riding his kids and they sell well. And I will say, his semen is extraordinary both fresh or frozen with excellent progressive motility. So, if consistency is something the OP is looking for with this particular lineage, this is a stallion really worth considering.

I, unfortunately, lost a lovely Freestyle colt last year out of my imported KWPN mare - broke my heart into a million pieces. Easily, one of the best colts we have ever produced. Another mare I have has a son in the US doing very well competitively (bred by her previous owner) and competing in ?4th level now. I’ve already booked my White Star mare to Freestyle for breeding this spring.

If the OP doesn’t mind me asking . . .

Fannie Mae and/or Alexandra - - what have Germany’s breeders been saying about Celle’s stallion, Floriscount (Florencio - Donnerhall - Walldorf)? I read things about some of his foals and it seems very exciting, but would rather like to hear first-hand accounts. I haven’t had a chance to get to Germany in a couple years.

Also, have either of you (or anyone else, free feel to step in here!) had a chance to observe their new one, Floratio (Florencio - Landadel - Calypso II)?? I believe there should be a first foal crop coming this spring from this young stallion.

#36

I’m looking forward to seeing in person on Sunday in Munster
Furst Donnerbube
http://www.hengststation-knapmoeller.de/hengste/fuerst-donnerbube

he is 3/4 bred the same as my Furst Fiorano.

and Franziskus (Fidertanz/Alabaster)

#37

[QUOTE=hansiska;6123075]
The answer to this – according to Dr. Timoney, who is studying it right now – is that there is minimal risk if the mare has been previously vaccinated. She does pass antibodies on to the foal.[/QUOTE]

I admit my info is several years old - and came originally from Dr. Timoney. However, there is no guarantee the antibodies passed by the mare will protect the foal, and although the risk is small of the foal developing respiratory EVA, it is still a risk nonetheless. I have two friends who almost lost foals to EVA - one was from a non-vaccinated mare back before most folks even knew what EVA was, but the other one was from a vaccinated mare. It is the latter case that would make me VERY hesitant to use EVA positive semen on even a vaccinated mare that has a foal at foot.

#38

I should add that each case should be considered on an individual basis and the mare tested for antibodies – which is why I highly recommend a conversation with Timoney. Although there is no guarantee of antibodies, the mare’s antibodies can be checked. I’d be interested to know when and how frequently that second mare you speak of was vaccinated in relation to the illness in her foal and also if she was tested for antibodies.

#39

[QUOTE=hansiska;6124035]
I should add that each case should be considered on an individual basis and the mare tested for antibodies – which is why I highly recommend a conversation with Timoney. Although there is no guarantee of antibodies, the mare’s antibodies can be checked. I’d be interested to know when and how frequently that second mare you speak of was vaccinated in relation to the illness in her foal and also if she was tested for antibodies.[/QUOTE]

Not sure when she was vaccinated, just know that it had been done fairly recently. I will see if I can find out more details.

#40

I had learned that way back there are different sorts of vaccinationstuff. Directly translated from living (that is not allowed in Germany but much better and mostly used in US I was told than) and the other stuff.
(sorry I do not know the correct wording in english)
Maybe it has something to do with that. I had my mare tested for antibodies back than and she had none.

Get your Digital Subscription here - only $21.95 / year

Subscribe here
See gift options

Sign up to our monthly newsletter!

By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.

Copyright © 2023 The Chronicle of the Horse