Foal pricing in the US vs Europe?

[SCMSL]

I guess I should speak up. OP, I myself have imported 6 horses from Germany for the exact reasons you mentioned. I might get some flack for it but my last import was in 2007 ( I think by now the U.S. has more stock to choose from) but also, it was because I found that in Germany, where Hanoverians are in abundance in concentrated areas, you can go to one place without having to spend thousands in air fare, choose what you want and get it to your farm for roughly the same price as one you’d find in the U.S. The mare I have now, would have cost me much more to buy in the U.S. She is everything an American breeder or competitive rider could ask for but in Germany, her kind is a dime a dozen. IF I could find one like her in the U.S. and of course, they do exist, I would be hard pressed to get a breeder to part with her AND if she was available for sale, would be totally unaffordable. I bought her from their door to mine, she was a green broke 3 year old, so I could try her under saddle, for what I’ve seen some yearlings go for here in the U.S. I do understand where you’re coming from

Totally agree with this. Until the U.S. have as many horses as you have in Germany, horses in the U.S will always be more expensive.

[Donella]

She is everything an American breeder or competitive rider could ask for but in Germany, her kind is a dime a dozen.

I have a hard time believing this…that such horses are truly “a dime a dozen”. I guess it depends by what you mean by “competitive”. At the last auction I was at I wasn’t shopping but spent a few days there with a friend (who was a short listed rider for Canada and someone who has picked out future team horses for other people) and we picked out the horses we liked in the warm up, watched people try them ect and the ones we picked were all over 80 k and stayed in Germany. Not that this is for sure an accurate representation and that said I have never really seriously shopped for riding horses there. That being said I have shopped for breeding stock and bought a broodmare and do find that they are more reasonably priced and there is an opportunity to get bloodlines that are hard to find here.

At the end of the day a good horse is a good horse regardless of the country you are living in. Of course, there is no denying the appeal of going and sitting on 20 different horses in one venue or at a couple of farms all within an hours drive ect and it is nice too that most of the horses are at least decently ridden and both of these things are rare in NA. So yes, they do have a lot to offer shoppers but I just am not convinced that really competitive type riding horses are cheap over there.

[alexandra]

Donella auction is auction and no way to compare with foal/younghorse market out in country.

[columbus]

Don’t over shop

Most people shopping for a young prospect for dressage do NOT need to find the top mare lines. The fillies with the whole picture of perfect conformation, top mare lines, high scores at inspection for gaits, conformation and pedigree are most suited for buyers looking to compete at the top as a breeder. To sell foals in the top range you need fillies/mares of this caliber. You very likely don’t need to shop there. There are many very nice young horses for half the cost of the top fillies and colts. There are other points that cause an excellent young horse from being at the top of the market…size…even color in some breeds…the less hot stallions…older less popular stallions…more remote farms…horses bred in GB or Ireland will be less expensive than prime Hannover. There are a few farms in the US and Canada that have over 10 foals a year. Know who they are and keep track of their foal crops…pretty easy to do. PatO

[Worldlylvr67]

[QUOTE=Donella;6954288]
She is everything an American breeder or competitive rider could ask for but in Germany, her kind is a dime a dozen.

I have a hard time believing this…that such horses are truly “a dime a dozen”. I guess it depends by what you mean by “competitive”. At the last auction I was at I wasn’t shopping but spent a few days there with a friend (who was a short listed rider for Canada and someone who has picked out future team horses for other people) and we picked out the horses we liked in the warm up, watched people try them ect and the ones we picked were all over 80 k and stayed in Germany. Not that this is for sure an accurate representation and that said I have never really seriously shopped for riding horses there. That being said I have shopped for breeding stock and bought a broodmare and do find that they are more reasonably priced and there is an opportunity to get bloodlines that are hard to find here.

At the end of the day a good horse is a good horse regardless of the country you are living in. Of course, there is no denying the appeal of going and sitting on 20 different horses in one venue or at a couple of farms all within an hours drive ect and it is nice too that most of the horses are at least decently ridden and both of these things are rare in NA. So yes, they do have a lot to offer shoppers but I just am not convinced that really competitive type riding horses are cheap over there.[/QUOTE]

I don’t mean a dime a dozen literally, figuratively speaking, meaning there are many more quality horses in small area. And auctions are exempt from my last post. Auctions sole purpose is to get the maximum amount of money. And the auction atmosphere works well for that. I’m talking about private contacts out in the country. I’ve never been to an auction and I won’t do it. But I saw many, many, reasonably priced horses at private farms that were every bit auction horse quality but without auction horse price tags.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Donella;6954288]
At the end of the day a good horse is a good horse regardless of the country you are living in. Of course, there is no denying the appeal of going and sitting on 20 different horses in one venue or at a couple of farms all within an hours drive ect and it is nice too that most of the horses are at least decently ridden and both of these things are rare in NA. So yes, they do have a lot to offer shoppers but I just am not convinced that really competitive type riding horses are cheap over there.[/QUOTE]

And a good competitive riding horse isn’t going to be cheap ANYWHERE unless it is in the hands of someone who doesn’t know what they have or is in dire economic pressure to sell. So those “deals” are going to be hard find where ever you go.

I live in an area where there is a dense population of top level riders and trainers for all the olympic sports. And there are some top breeders. Because of that…you are going to find more of a density in this area of top prospects. But you also have a LOT of very educated sellers. They are not going to sell cheap just because they are US bred…or sell more expensive because they are imported. They know a good horse with potential. They are going to price at what it is worth for them to sell…and that is going to depend on a lot of factors not only on the quality of the horse. For example, I personally would rather keep my nice home bred and start them before selling…so to get me to sell one of mine that looks like a very good prospect IS going to cost more than if you go to a breeder who doesn’t want to start their own. That is the market for you.

[Dev.R]

[QUOTE=columbus;6954341]
Most people shopping for a young prospect for dressage do NOT need to find the top mare lines. The fillies with the whole picture of perfect conformation, top mare lines, high scores at inspection for gaits, conformation and pedigree are most suited for buyers looking to compete at the top as a breeder. To sell foals in the top range you need fillies/mares of this caliber. You very likely don’t need to shop there. There are many very nice young horses for half the cost of the top fillies and colts. There are other points that cause an excellent young horse from being at the top of the market…size…even color in some breeds…the less hot stallions…older less popular stallions…more remote farms…horses bred in GB or Ireland will be less expensive than prime Hannover. There are a few farms in the US and Canada that have over 10 foals a year. Know who they are and keep track of their foal crops…pretty easy to do. PatO[/QUOTE]

Thanks everyone for their insight. I have found a few young horses here I really like. I agree I don’t need the top mare lines, I just want a nice filly with solid mare lines. It is very interesting all of this, and I hope to find the right filly soon

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=columbus;6954341]
Most people shopping for a young prospect for dressage do NOT need to find the top mare lines. The fillies with the whole picture of perfect conformation, top mare lines, high scores at inspection for gaits, conformation and pedigree are most suited for buyers looking to compete at the top as a breeder. To sell foals in the top range you need fillies/mares of this caliber. You very likely don’t need to shop there. There are many very nice young horses for half the cost of the top fillies and colts. There are other points that cause an excellent young horse from being at the top of the market…size…even color in some breeds…the less hot stallions…older less popular stallions…more remote farms…horses bred in GB or Ireland will be less expensive than prime Hannover. There are a few farms in the US and Canada that have over 10 foals a year. Know who they are and keep track of their foal crops…pretty easy to do. PatO[/QUOTE]

The OP also wanted it for breeding in which case the motherline is everything.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=alexandra;6954328]
Donella auction is auction and no way to compare with foal/younghorse market out in country.[/QUOTE]

FINALLY ! Thank you Alexandra for telling the truth. If I hear one more person guage the prices or quality of offspring in Germany based solely on the auction results…I think I will throw up.

The best foals , mares and horses in general are never in the auction. You get the best ones out in the “country” making friends with the breeders and drinking coffee !

[Blume_Farm]

Yes, I agree that many great horses get sold privately versus the auctions. However, very nice horses go through the auctions as well and it is a good resource for gauging the horse market as the prices are posted publicly for a large quantity of horses.

Also, JMHO but the US will never have the density of horse breeders that European countries do as we just don’t the same general interest in these sports (dressage, jumping, eventing). Go to a regional show in Germany and there are people there! Go to my Region 1 Dressage Championship Show (and this is a high density, horse friendly region of NJ, MD, VA, NC) and NO ONE is there other than the competitors, some family members and vendors!!! Until English riding sport is a bigger venue, has bigger growth in the US we will never have the same density of producers…again, just my opinion.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;6955667]
Yes, I agree that many great horses get sold privately versus the auctions. However, very nice horses go through the auctions as well and it is a good resource for gauging the horse market as the prices are posted publicly for a large quantity of horses.

Also, JMHO but the US will never have the density of horse breeders that European countries do as we just don’t the same general interest in these sports (dressage, jumping, eventing). Go to a regional show in Germany and there are people there! Go to my Region 1 Dressage Championship Show (and this is a high density, horse friendly region of NJ, MD, VA, NC) and NO ONE is there other than the competitors, some family members and vendors!!! Until English riding sport is a bigger venue, has bigger growth in the US we will never have the same density of producers…again, just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

Very nice horses do go thru the auctions but not the best. Also , those posted prices you speak of aren’t always real. Many are buy backs…and that is for sure not made public.

[Donella]

[B]FINALLY ! Thank you Alexandra for telling the truth. If I hear one more person guage the prices or quality of offspring in Germany based solely on the auction results…I think I will throw up.

The best foals , mares and horses in general are never in the auction. You get the best ones out in the “country” making friends with the breeders and drinking coffee ![/B]

Bayhawk if you read my post you will see that I was referring to riding horses. And while the auction may not represent the general market it is absolutely false to say that the best horses are not found at auctions. I can think of many examples of top international dressage horses (Olympic horses as well) that have been bought through the auction.

[alexandra]

Bayhawk that holds unforunately only partly true. it is not not the best go through auction (how can as there are soooo many good quality e.g. hanoverian bred ones). But a lot do. As far as how the development is changing in this regard I am a bit unsure at the moment (reason is the clients, not the horse quality - last auction in Ver was defintely a buyers market !!! - The BD was way tooo cheap e.g. ).
What Donella described that everything she liked was also already 80.000, I have made the experience - yes the ones that are obviously looking good at the auction itself and can easily be spotted will always cost. But good horses can be bought with a bit of phantasy and leg work at the beginning of the auction time, in the middle and at the end for good prices. But it involces legwork and knowlege to look through it. Know a friend who found some very Special Young dressage horses, some to be found later on in the top lists of Markel YH in the USA. If there are two parties willing and able to spend a lot, than well that’s it - even a horse that one would not have paid that much for goes for a high figure.

But as this thread was originally about foals, I can say that looking at the “average” foal, not the 10.000 - 20.000 or even higher prices you can get a rough idea what much your money pays in General in average (with the one or other exception that is due to the acution format as such where two bidders suddenly want the same). Last Elite auction in VER were quite a few very nice/“decent” foals. Knock down price average aroung 6.000 (add fees and tax that is in some cases refundable). And yes that gives an idea about what one could get for how much.
In regards of buy backs: In the equation from what we look here this means sellers were not happy with the bidding price they god and bought back. But that means also that the average of horses sold is lower than the official average !

Be assured in these days people do not buy back that often anymore. Auction fees have to be paid anyways and the horse has to be taken home, again under saddle (maybe with a rider that gets payment and not the seller himself). Than due to internet and fast Information These days people/buyers will know oh this was at the acution and sold there for xxx, so they are sure it will not be less - finding a buyer for the higher price including Training and the auction fees is more difficult. People know that and part much more easy at the auciton than they used to…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Donella;6955847]
[B]FINALLY ! Thank you Alexandra for telling the truth. If I hear one more person guage the prices or quality of offspring in Germany based solely on the auction results…I think I will throw up.

The best foals , mares and horses in general are never in the auction. You get the best ones out in the “country” making friends with the breeders and drinking coffee ![/B]

Bayhawk if you read my post you will see that I was referring to riding horses. And while the auction may not represent the general market it is absolutely false to say that the best horses are not found at auctions. I can think of many examples of top international dressage horses (Olympic horses as well) that have been bought through the auction.[/QUOTE]

Donella , I guess I am referring to the foals and mares under which this thread was titled. I know for a fact the best of those are never in an auction.

As for the riding horses…what I witness in Holstein is that several international quality horses have come and continue to come from those auctions but they were young and developed correctly after the fact. The majority of the very best jumpers are still bought privately.

Alexandra…I respect your opinion but as far as those auctions go…some horses are sold for very high prices and some of it is smoke and mirrors…

[alexandra]

Well as far as those auctions of the registries go:
I am pretty sure that tax authorities watch this very closely ! They look at the Verband and their paperwork plus payments going to the Verband after an auction, they look at sellers and their income tax, VAT, payments etc.

Buyer needs to pay auction price to the verband plus VAT, plus fee. Verband pay auction price minus fee and minus VAT to seller. Seller has to pay income tax on the amount.

Do you really believe, People risk tax audits and higher taxes etc. over here ?

If seller is equal to the party holding the auction - I guess that gives much more room for “games”. maybe credits for other horses that seller buys back from buyer etc…

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=alexandra;6956774]
Well as far as those auctions of the registries go:
I am pretty sure that tax authorities watch this very closely ! They look at the Verband and their paperwork plus payments going to the Verband after an auction, they look at sellers and their income tax, VAT, payments etc.

Buyer needs to pay auction price to the verband plus VAT, plus fee. Verband pay auction price minus fee and minus VAT to seller. Seller has to pay income tax on the amount.

Do you really believe, People risk tax audits and higher taxes etc. over here ?

If seller is equal to the party holding the auction - I guess that gives much more room for “games”. maybe credits for other horses that seller buys back from buyer etc…[/QUOTE]

I believe what Bayhawk means is that the price advertized as results of the sales are not necessarly realistic and do not always results in “real sales”. It is not because the price are reached during the auction that horses are sold for these prices. And the prices declared to fiscal authorities are those of the sales effectively concluded. It is rue, in fact, that it happens that the prices reached are offered by the consigners, sometimes while trying to raise the prices, sometimes to buy the horse back instead of selling it to a price to low. Horses are usualy not bought from the auction, but through the auction and even if the purchase price is pay to the auction, it is usualy only held in trust for the seller only to make sure the auction is paid all his fees before liberating the money. I am not realy familliar about the policies of the sales in those events.

Another reason why the prices at auction are not to be refered to as “market price” is that it is the priced reach at that specific place, at that specific time. Prices usualy start very low and if no one is interested, the horse will sell under the price it would have been sold privately by a seller that would have waited for his price. In the same way, when two people are interested in the same horse, they are encouraged to bet by the auction professionnals and often the crowd and that may lead to ridiculously high prices.

I have to say it is usualy admited thet the auction prices are not a good indicator of the market price.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Cumano;6956936]
I believe what Bayhawk means is that the price advertized as results of the sales are not necessarly realistic and do not always results in “real sales”. It is not because the price are reached during the auction that horses are sold for these prices. And the prices declared to fiscal authorities are those of the sales effectively concluded. It is rue, in fact, that it happens that the prices reached are offered by the consigners, sometimes while trying to raise the prices, sometimes to buy the horse back instead of selling it to a price to low. Horses are usualy not bought from the auction, but through the auction and even if the purchase price is pay to the auction, it is usualy only held in trust for the seller only to make sure the auction is paid all his fees before liberating the money. I am not realy familliar about the policies of the sales in those events.

Another reason why the prices at auction are not to be refered to as “market price” is that it is the priced reach at that specific place, at that specific time. Prices usualy start very low and if no one is interested, the horse will sell under the price it would have been sold privately by a seller that would have waited for his price. In the same way, when two people are interested in the same horse, they are encouraged to bet by the auction professionnals and often the crowd and that may lead to ridiculously high prices.

I have to say it is usualy admited thet the auction prices are not a good indicator of the market price.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Cumano…this is exactly what I was getting at.

And yes Alexandra…sometimes there are many “games” played at these auctions . The point is that auction prices are not real indicators of actual market prices , nor the prices of equal quality horses you can get in country for far less.

For example , I have watched 4 year olds go for 200,000 euro in the auction. I could easily buy the same , if not better 4 year old in the country for 35,000 euro. You have to know people though.

[alexandra]

[QUOTE=Cumano;6956936]
I believe what Bayhawk means is that the price advertized as results of the sales are not necessarly realistic and do not always results in “real sales”. It is not because the price are reached during the auction that horses are sold for these prices. And the prices declared to fiscal authorities are those of the sales effectively concluded. It is rue, in fact, that it happens that the prices reached are offered by the consigners, sometimes while trying to raise the prices, sometimes to buy the horse back instead of selling it to a price to low. Horses are usualy not bought from the auction, but through the auction and even if the purchase price is pay to the auction, it is usualy only held in trust for the seller only to make sure the auction is paid all his fees before liberating the money. I am not realy familliar about the policies of the sales in those events.

Another reason why the prices at auction are not to be refered to as “market price” is that it is the priced reach at that specific place, at that specific time. Prices usualy start very low and if no one is interested, the horse will sell under the price it would have been sold privately by a seller that would have waited for his price. In the same way, when two people are interested in the same horse, they are encouraged to bet by the auction professionnals and often the crowd and that may lead to ridiculously high prices.

I have to say it is usualy admited thet the auction prices are not a good indicator of the market price.[/QUOTE]

As the auction conditions of Verden state that the Verband sells in ist own name and gives a clear statement of what has to be paid and is considered as price. I do not agree therefore with your Explanation to tell me that Prices in the Verband acutions are different. Maybe coming from american law is different. But over here at least at the auctions I am refering to knock down price is relevant for all parties involved and “interested” (tax authorities).

Te acution prices oerall and in average can be used as indicator. But only indicator if you look at the average qality in the relevant auction. I agree the top pices can come from a bidding war. But we are talking about indicators and in General not about exceptions. And again, I refers with this statement (auction Price is indicator for prices in the relevant area/registry only to foals.)