Found this video on breaking horses in Europe...

[justhoofit]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;6770188]
I think a lot of you guys are over-reacting to this video… it was a demonstration for an audience and they used an unbroken 4-year old stallion for this purpose. There was nothing in the video that was unkind or unfair to the horse and I admire the guy that did the riding. The rider was trying to demonstrate the steps involved in starting a horse and since the audience wasn’t there for the next couple of weeks, he condensed it to 15 minutes. He even says that this is normally a much longer process and goes out of his way to praise the horse through-out the session.
I only wish that we had more of this type of riding talent in this country.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. I was not horrified at all; it isn’t the way I generally do it, but then again I can’t ride half as well as the guy in this video. This horse was never handled roughly (even when rearing or striking) they simply just kept him moving forward. The horse never seemed to be in distress to me. He wasn’t even blowing that hard when they put him in the stall.

This is much more humane then those stupid natural horsemanship “contests” we see in this country; where they chase/work the horse until they are out of air, flood them with dozens of unnecessary stimuli, then ride the snot out of them in front of an audience.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=szipi;6769980]
QUOTE: but both were walk/trot/cantering under saddle by the end of the week with a super understanding of the aids.

Are we this misguided about riding in general - let alone starting horses???
Super understanding of aids a few days after bringing horses up from pasture???

Bragging about “advancing” horses this fast in their training rises some red flags. ?[/QUOTE]

I worked on farms starting TBs and I have several Western friends now who follow various NHS methods, like from Ray Hunt & Buck Brannaman.

The TB colts were generally mounted and ridden within days…maybe 3 sessions? They were out on the track for exercising in sets by 2 weeks. They had a “basic understanding of the aids”…meaning they knew the leg meant forward and what “stop” was. Racing TBs don’t do “seat” much.

The Western guys routinely have their horses out of the round pen and out working on the ranch within 3 days. Of course, they have done some ground work prior. Ray Hunt use to say 1 day of ground work, 1 day of riding, then they are on the payroll.

It doesn’t take long to teach a horse what the leg & hand mean in terms of aids. They aren’t retards.

Then it’s a matter of refining & advancing. But it really doesn’t take much to simply teach a horse to carry a rider, go when the leg goes on, stop when a person pulls and how to plow rein.

This part should not take long, because once you are “aboard” you can start teaching the complicated stuff and refine the conversation.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=why not;6772888]
We do the following scheme:

At the end of the year that they are three, they will be taken out for long walks, after that we do a bit of lunging. Not to much as we think that these circle movements are not good for the still developing bones and bonestructures.
Then we will put on a saddle and walk again. First not to tight, later thight.
Next step is a girl that will lay on the horses back on the saddle. If there is an unexpected movement of the horse, she is quick and safe on the ground. We will walk the horse in this way. If this is going well the rider is seated in the saddle. We still lead the horse by it’s head. In most cases three or four traingssessions of each max 10 min will follow that the horse is still guided by someone on the ground. If there is a buck, it is quick under control. After that step, the horse is free to go with the rider on top. Just last week we finished the breaking of a now 4 year old mare by Calato. In foal now. This took us 1,5 month.

http://youtu.be/3e8HkvpWWZ4

we are not pros and the riders are most students or have a job, we can not put them in risky situations[/QUOTE]

This is the classic way racing TBs are started, except without the lunging. And the mounting is usually done in a stall.

Of course, it’s important to remember that most racing TBs have been handled since they were born…they’ve been brushed & touched & bathed, etc. Having a rider up there is usually just not a big deal…neither is a saddle weighing less than 15 lbs.

[arlosmine]

Can this guy ride? Sure. Does he have superb balance and gymnastic athleticism? Sure. Do I aspire to start horses in this “assembly line” fashion? No way. Would I want to buy one started like this when I could buy one started more progressively? Absolutely not.

I also agree tha this was was not “horse abuse”. However, the horse was stressed and confused for much of the session, and in my opinion that’s not an optimum state for learning. The steps are standard, but the timing was rushed. I know it was a demo…and I have issues with subjecting a horse to that kind of timetable. It’s not about the horse any more, and since this is the MOST important juncture in a horse’s life, I think it should be.

Just because it’s possible to do it fast, doesn’t mean you should. I understand that there is a more developed horse industry in Europe…but I’d rather buy a horse with a quieter start. The residual tension in a horse’s back from this sort of start can be hard to overcome, and it’s just not necessary.

On a side note:
I’ve started enough babies to know that there is a HUGE range of reactions to being ridden the first few times.

My wonderful, solid “do everything with” horse bucked so hard the first time the stirrups were on the saddle (I start minus stirrups) that he BROKE THE BILLETS and the saddle flew off his back (!!!)
He came from a long line of cold-backed horses, so I was expecting some bumps in the road, but that was a shock! We had a few weeks of work to get him to accept the concept calmly.

My section B Welsh pony whom I started a few years ago progressed through each step like he’d done them a thousand times before. The pre-riding steps took abput two weeks, and he was was walk-trot-canter within a week of being backed. Then he was turned out.

Having a horse-starter who waits until the horse understands and accepts each step calmly before preceding to the next will set the horse up to be a more willing participant in their future schooling…The timetable is somewhat different for each horse, and I’d rather have one with the muscle (and brain) memory of being ridden without bucking installed by early experience, of at all possible.

[Hollycatt]

OP - you ask why “they” (presumably “they” means Europeans) start horses this way. As far as I know, the vast majority of Europeans don’t, though I am mainly speaking of horses started in countries I have a little knowledge of - mainly UK, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Ireland, Norway, Denmark. Possibly things may be done slightly differently in Spain/Portugal. Certainly I have had friends import quite expensive baroque horses who have had to restart them as steps had clearly been missed. However there are some outstanding classical dressage riders in these countries, so who knows what the norm is.

You would need to ask the owner of this particular horse as to why he was started in this way. I think it is a person with an unusual mentality that sends their horse to be backed as part of a demo in front of an audience. As others have said perhaps he is not well behaved and problems were anticipated. Maybe funds were limited and it was done for free as part of the demo. Who knows?

The larger studs I have known do not start their youngsters in this way, despite having large numbers of youngsters, many of which have been raised in herds so have not had the high level of handling a youngster raised by one person would have. Personally with my own horses the backing itself is a non event. Of more value is the time spent building a good relationship and trust beforehand. Of buding a solid base from which the horses education can be advanced, and setting the horse up to suceed

[Cindyg]

Another very old thread. I have to wonder why the person who bumped it said it was B.S. What’s B.S.? The video or the discussion? If it’s BS, why bump it back in to circulation?

[Donella]

I don’t think this is the norm in Germany. At least not at the good places. My partner has started literally hundreds of horses and trained/worked at two of the top dressage barns in Germany, both of which had many young horses and trainers that have won the world championships. I was showing him a video of this same guy bronc riding out a young horse for the first time and he was disgusted and said he never saw anything like that when he was working in Germany. There are a couple of these guys that seem to specialize in just getting on totally unbroke /nervous horses and riding them out cowboy style in order to break them…pretty much every horse they get on goes like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ_9D0F9SQ4

But being able to bronc ride doesn’t make you a horseman or a trainer. If a horse tries to preserve itself via fleeing or fighting back you are generally doing something wrong. Quick, stress inducing methods like these do nothing to instil confidence and trust in the young horse (which should be one of the main goals of the young horse trainer!). Sure, this guy in the video is fine with this horse but wait until someone normal gets on after the 30 day wonder has moved on to the next horse.

[ladyj79]

I hope it was bumped up so people who don’t know any better could insult rider Herman Koorman who is obscenely good, and well-regarded, not just for his superb seat, but also his great patience in dealing with young and problem horses. He starts horses for the VDL stud, Wiemselbach, HBC and Eurocommerce.

It was merely a demonstration. Best sometimes to reserve comment if you aren’t entirely clear what is going on.

Although, of course, you are also welcome to comment away about his lack of qualifications.

[adelmo95]

I certainly do not consider myself a pro, and have somewhat limited experience starting youngsters as I think I am now up to 5 of my own that I have started from scratch and a couple of others that I have helped people with. I do have a couple of comments after watching the video:

1. I wish I was as brave as the guy in the video.
2. It was certainly fast tracked but looked like the same steps I have found to work, I just normally extend things over a few weeks. Part of that extension is me waiting until I feel comfortable that nothing will happen when I get on as I don’t want to be nervously standing at the mounting block (I wish I was as flexible as the guy in the video as well) about to get on for the first ride.
3. I think there is something in the water at Silver Creek or actually somthing to do with the bloodlines they choose to use - my youngster that I purchased from them could be described as born broke. I have never met such a calm, smart, easy to train youngster
4. I feel like the method used in the video likely works alright with warmbloods as most seem to pause for a minute to think about why someone is on their back so having people on the ground to help encourage the horse forward could be helpful. I would be curious to see how things would go with someone trying to start a racebred thoroughbred in this manner. I attempted starting one thoroughbred using the method which had worked well for all of the warmbloods I had started (still a small sample size of 5 but 100% success rate) and discovered that there is likely a reason why many race horse trainers sit on them for the first time in a stall. This one took all of the steps in stride up to and including putting all of my body weight over him, however I have never had something snap into blindly bolting so quickly as soon as my leg was on the other side, and I certainly wished that I was in a smaller space than an indoor arena when this happened. I am sure that he isn’t the norm and after a couple times starting back from scratch and getting the same result I decided that he was beyond my ability level and let a pro start him who resorted to blinkers.
5. I can not imagine hosting a horse starting clinic and having confidence that the horse would cooperate enough to be able to fast track the steps to be done in 15 minutes.

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=MMall;7706704]
I call B.S. on this one.[/QUOTE]

MMall keeps reviving ancient threads. This is from Jan 2013.

[stoicfish]

The horse was made to figure things out in a very short time, not the way I would want my horses done but not the end of the world or abusive.
I have seen many people riding horses that still have holes in the training because no one ever pushed the horse out of their comfort zone. And like people, they have a range of personalities, some are tough and need to test everything and need an answer to their question. This is a different scenario then a genuinely scared horse that needs time. But for the ones that need an answer or limits, a tougher session might be required at some point. This does not mean abuse at all but it does mean the horse might be upset and the handler needs the skills to work through it without backing down. A spoiled 1500pd horse is not good for their own well being. Sandro Hit might be an example of a horse that just needed a rider to sit with it, which he got later instead of earlier.
Most horses are very generous and kind but some have strong minds and need questions answered. I think the ones with the strong minds end up being the best horses sometimes when limits are set. So to see a bit of a rodeo might be necessary, but this video was the short cut to that process.
Look at children these days…no one wants conflict and the kid suffers when the rest of the world is not as tolerant as the parents. Sometimes setting boundaries is uncomfortable and with a large horse even dangerous.

[Kareen]

Definitely not the way most horses in Europe are started and most definitely nothing I would do. While I do have respect for his skill there are so many counterproductive things in just this one session I wouldn’t want to be the rider to follow up with that kind of ‘training’. What this horse is doing is not learning because it is freakin’ terrified and anybody knows learning does not occur in a state of tension and anxiety. Anxiety is blocking individuals from learning. All that can be done in this state of mind is conditioning and the first thing this horse gets conditioned into is the assumption that bucking under saddle and wearing a rider is an option. The other thing it picks up is that work is a bad thing and must be feared or at least dreaded.
Neither of these conditions are anything I want to establish in the horses I work with.

[Kareen]

Definitely not the way most horses in Europe are started and most definitely nothing I would do. While I do have respect for his skill there are so many counterproductive things in just this one session I wouldn’t want to be the rider to follow up with that kind of ‘training’. What this horse is doing is not learning because it is freakin’ terrified and anybody knows learning does not occur in a state of tension and anxiety. Anxiety is blocking individuals from learning. All that can be done in this state of mind is conditioning and the first thing this horse gets conditioned into is the assumption that bucking under saddle and wearing a rider is an option. The other thing it picks up is that work is a bad thing and must be feared or at least dreaded.
Neither of these conditions are anything I want to establish in the horses I work with.