Freakin hikers! Hold on to your dogs!!! grrrrrr

YES, YES and MORE yes!

More people in America own dogs than horses, and more people walk their dogs than ride their horses…so if it was ever to come to an actual “showdown” about use of public space it’s not gonna be the riders that win.

I have very one very annoying dog (a heeler), so my horses are very schooled in dogs running under their legs, belly, etc. Stuff like dragging ropes, tarps, ATV’s, trains (we lived near a well-used track), logging trucks, etc. are all part of their education.

But the biggest part of their education is to follow MY lead – if I am calm and “brave,” they will be as well…and the more we do it, the better they get.

If you are going to go outside an arena, then you will be going out in the wide, wide world, where anything can happen. So you want your horse to be prepared for EVERYTHING. Naturally you can’t train or desensitize your horse to everything, but you CAN train your horse to see you as the leader and remain calm if you are calm. There are plenty of methods out there – from the John Lyons school to the Mounted Police “Bomb proofing” type clinics. Pick one if you feel you need guidance and make your horse safer for you.

We are all taught “defensive driving” in Driver’s Ed. There is also such a thing as “defensive riding.” Learn, practice it, and put the responsibility squarely where it belongs…:yes:

[QUOTE=wendy;4822118]
being both a horse rider and a hiker-with-dogs I have to say the horse riders I meet tend to be total PITAS. I frequently walk the dogs down some multi-user (but lightly used) trails near my house. The rules of these trails allow off-leash dogs; the dogs are only required to “be under the owner’s control”. So you’re walking along, you see a horse, you call your dogs to heel, and shift sideways on the trail, intending to calmly walk past the horse while it calmly walks past you. Guess how many of the horse-riders freak out, scream at you, order you to attach leashes, ask you to stand still, or request you move totally off the trail? guess how many of the horses act spooky about something, dogs and people calmly walking along, they should have seen over and over and over again?
We also meet joggers, other hikers, and bikers while on these same trails and they just take us in stride and shift over to the other side and we pass calmly.

As a horse-rider I find the dog owners, while apparently for the most part unable to train dogs or exhibit any signs of common sense, are usually apologetic and embarrassed by their beasts behavior. When we meet people with dogs while out trail riding we just assume they are idiots and the dogs are untrained, and just attempt to slow down enough to give the owner time to get the dogs under control, and quietly shift over and pass them. Most of the time the dogs are clearly not used to horses, and either are scared, bark, or get away from the owners and run around behind the horse and sniff at the legs, while the dog owner apologizes and tries to catch their beast. Never had one actually attempt to bite or attack the horses.[/QUOTE]

with you wendy all the way, couldnt have put it better

if one panics and screams to get there dog on the leash they have already told the horse to be scared of the dogs if they had ignored the dogs then the horse will too

[QUOTE=CatOnLap;4822725]
about those flexi leads- someone gave me one as a present, so I tried it out and it sure seemed handy! I used it for about 6 months and really liked it.

Until the day when something crossed my dog’s path into the bushes, he took off, the lock popped open when he hit the end of the locked in length, then he ran until he hit the end of the lead and it snapped where it attaches to the snap! And of course the dog kept running.

I got a NASTY whip burn as the thing recoiled into the back of my hand.

Thankfully, whatever small critter it was, got away and the dog eventually returned to my call. The whip…err… I mean flexi lead…is in the trash.[/QUOTE]

haha someone brought me one for a present - you know never used it total waste of time, i use wait for it the best leads haha

leadropes lol well i have plenty apart from panda pup as shes has new collar harness and lead as shes dinky blooming lead rope be to thick for her but a flexi lead would be ok just i dont like them at all and have know other people to break theres on the 1st walk

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;4823710]
This conversation would have a totally different tone if the OP had been pushing her 5 month old baby in a stroller and the dog tore loose from its owner and came charging at her and the baby :wink: But since its a big tough mean horse, then it’s ok.

I watched something happen in the vet clinic a few weeks back that was really interesting…A husband/wife were sitting in the waiting room their tiny little teacup toy terriers. I was waiting in line to buy some bute. A guy came out of the exam room with a Pit Bull that was probably 70-80 lbs. She was happy and wagging her tail, came up to my leg and leaned up against me. LOL. I scratched her all over and she just wagged and wagged all the harder, licked my hands, all that sweet stuff. She wanted to go over by husband/wife to say hi and lick them and get scratches. The two snatched their dogs, stuffed them under their arms, jumped up off the bench like they were ejected out of the seats, and moved to the other side of the room!

I was thinking, geez dumb people, can’t they see the dog had no bad intentions? But I guess everybody reads body language differently. Maybe they didn’t notice the wagging tail. All they saw was a big Pit Bull coming at them and their snack pack of doggie nuggets.

They got called back to the exam room, so then it was just me and the Pit Bull guy there. I said “Wow, they seemed scared of her didn’t they?” He was like - “Yeah, everybody does that. It used to bother me but it doesn’t anymore. I guess people don’t know her, and don’t know that she’s a big lamb chop. It’s not their fault.”

So really, it’s true - when a strange dog is coming at you, you DON’T know that dog’s intentions, his temperament, his past history, or what he’s capable of. It’s better to be safe than sorry. It was better for those people to take the doggie nuggets to the other side of the room instead of sitting there in fear and feeling threatened by the big dog. For all they knew, he’d eaten 3 other little dogs for breakfast. They didn’t know. I didn’t feel threatened because I didn’t have any tiny cargo to protect, I own a Pit Bull, and I’m fairly dog savvy and could see the wagging tail and loose facial expression. But clearly they DID feel threatened, and they were WELL within their rights to remove themselves from a situation they felt was threatening and unsafe. (And FWIW, the scenario could have played out the same with any big breed dog - it just so happened to be a Pit.)[/QUOTE]

turn it around - what say if the horse was out of control and spooked the
owner with her dogs and freightened her and them so that she accidentally lost a dog in the process
here with the op we have oneside of a storey we dont have the owner with dogs s ide
am putting this up as a s senerio as you did
as normally as you havent got kids any mum will tell you that to push and shove a stroller or pram or pushchair over a trackey terrian with rocks and stones aholes made by horses, or muddy trial just isnt going to happen

as its blooming hard work lol so they tend to opt for a foot path and rules are for uk no riders are allowed on foot paths by ways yes bridle paths yes
but pedesterians can use any path
and dogs do have to be under control ie on a lead unless its private property
or open public places

this surgest its public

So, went on a what started as a nice trail ride this afternoon. A trail I recently discovered goes directly right by the end of a runway at a small airport.
The end of the run way is really built up to clear the tree tops in the state forest. So, you can’t see the planes until they are airborne right over you, which is actually pretty cool.

Just as I was riding by the runway, I heard a plane starting take off…eek!
It buzzed right above the treetops above us and I was amazed that Twinkie wasn’t fazed in the least…

very interesting thread

I am a rider and a dog owner - paramount to me is safety - mine, my horse, my dog. Most folks, who use the same trails I do, have no idea about how frightening they can be to my horse, add a loose dog and you’ve just upped the odds that someone is going to get hurt. I try to be nice. I try to educate fellow trail users. Still, some people just don’t seem to get it. We have posted leash laws - that protects me, my horse, my dog, your dog and yes, even you.

I love my dog - he is well behaved - but, he stays on a leash when we are out and about. Why? Because it keeps him safe. As good as he is, dogs will be dogs, I don’t have to worry about him chasing something into the street, running into old barbed wire, coyotes, whatever.

I realize accidents happen - but, a little old fashioned common sense goes a long way!

[QUOTE=mp;4824184]
… and some people ride combat. Wheeeee!!![/QUOTE]

Ha you silly git, thats Commando not combat. My Boxer DOGS, I should have said :winkgrin::winkgrin: Can’t get nuthin past this crowd.

'round here, it’s either.

Now pull up those loose boxers.

So for the safety of all on the trail it’s ok to ride combat as long as you’re firmly holding your Boxers. But what if you’re firmly holding someone else’s Boxers?

It’s OK, as long as they’re not velcro’d to your arm.

Then you’re riding someone else.
…Or doing the laundry.

:lol::lol::lol:

Rein it back into reality a bit folks… :wink:

Thanks!
Mod 1

[QUOTE=Moderator 1;4825208]
Rein it back into reality a bit folks… :wink:

Thanks!
Mod 1[/QUOTE]

OK. I’m not a dog expert, but the handful of boxers I have known have been sweet, even tender dogs.

I do know that dogs and horses can go from curious and tentative to defensive in a moment. But animals are pretty honest. They’ll tell you when their ramping up for that. The “beat first, just in case” isn’t usually necessary as the OP argued.

I’d be pissed if someone decided to train my animal along these lines without giving me a chance to do it my way. However they want to handle their animal is fine, but they ought not to make decisions for other peoples’ animals.

I have a big bruise on my arm today from a boxer. But it’s not what you think…

Our barn dog Leia is the most wonderful, cuddliest goofball of a boxer. She loves everyone – people, horses, kitties. But she is bouncy in that boxer-ish way. I was turning out my yearling and Leia came up behind us doing that boxer bounce. I was JUUUUUUST pushing back the gate when this occurred and the filly ran over the top of me, smashing my arm into one of the rungs on the gate. Owie owie owie.

My friend heard me yelp and then yell at the filly, and asked what had happened. When I told her that Leia had bounded up behind us and set off the filly, she came over to get the dog and put her elsewhere. I said absolutely not. We practiced going back and forth through that gate WITH the inquisitive boxer still milling about, until I felt that that filly knew what was expected. I’m really hoping that Leia is helping us to create good equine citizens so we can visit public use trails safely. I want us to be prepared because to my mind a trail horse that has issues with dogs belongs at home.

I don’t own Boxers, have never even met one, but I do know that they’re classic goofballs, children in fur coats. That Boxer probably saw the horses and wanted to play, go check it out. Since the owner called out and asked if the horse was okay with barking, it sounds to me that she knew her dog(s) were excitable around horses. That Boxer was probably the barker in the past. The OP didn’t mention if any of the dogs barked, just that the Boxer bolted. Now, I will agree that any kind of leash attached to velcro with a strong dog at the end of it, that’s just asking for trouble. I have a reliable dog and I would never attach his leash to velcro. All it takes is one jerk on the leash because he caught sight of a rabbit, and I won’t be able to catch the leash in time. Most likely, the end of the leash will slip just past my fingers as my hand clenches over it. His leash is always looped in my hand, with the loop actually over my thumb (seriously, try it. The thumb is a STRONG anchor).

Personally, I love Flexis, but they’re only great with owners who have common sense. And I just want to point out that the BRAND of Flexi is great; other knockoff brands seem to be the weak ones that break. I’ve owned two Flexis, and one retractable leash that was not the Flexi brand and that was the only one that was junk. Seriously, it broke the day it arrived (I ordered it off ebay). It wouldn’t retract very well at all; I would stand there manually pushing 20’ of string back into the handle, while Jake was sitting there next to me watching. And while growing up, Jake has had his share of bolting and I’ve never had a problem with the Flexi. I’ve had the handle yanked out of my hand, and that was always because I wasn’t paying attention. Jake’s first Flexi (the one during his training years) suffered a lot of abuse, from a teething Jake, to being dragged through mud, sand, puddles, snow, dragged over concrete or ice. Being stepped on by a human foot stop the dragging, or dropped from a high distance (without the dog attached to it, lol), or left outside in the rain or snow. It lasted a good 6 years without any mechanical issues (though the thumb button was a bit morphed from tooth marks and was slightly “sticky”). It finally died when the string snapped at a weak spot when Jake decided to play tag with a Bouvier through a fence. Then I got the junk retractable (and instead used it as a cat leash), then spent a couple of years with just the ordinary leashes before I finally got a new red one. It’s still going great, but then again, Jake’s all grown up, well-trained, and the leash doesn’t have the chance to be abused anymore.

Another thing, many people have voiced experiences with horses who had one issue with something, and continued to be troublesome with the same thing afterwards. That brings up the fact that the Boxer was just sniffing the horse, getting to see it up close (I have no doubt that he’s only seen the horses from afar). When suddenly he gets a whack with a whip. Dogs are just like horses in that a bad experience can change them for the future. Who’s the say that from now on, that same Boxer won’t get aggressive to future horses? He’s now experienced pain that came out of nowhere and appeared to have no reason attached to it (now, if the horse was moving, he might link that to the pain, but from what I read, the horse was standing calmly, doing nothing). Now, when he sees horses, he’s going to associate them with the surprise pain, and I’ll bet that he’s going to be a barky mess when he sees them. Wouldn’t surprise me, either, if he lunges at the horses as they pass. Of course, it could go the opposite way: Boxer sees horses in the distance, and wants to turn tail and run. Then, as the horses are getting closer, the owner of the 3 dogs is having greater and greater difficulty getting the panicking dog to calm down, which is lowering her control of the other 2 dogs.

Now, if my dog did something that put someone else in danger, I would definitely work on it myself. He’s seen horses only a handful of times in his life (barking and howling at them through a fence, but once he saw me stroking one’s face, he got closer to sniff it, and calmed right down and ignored them), so if I saw horses coming towards me, I’d immediately go on the alert and do whatever is needed to keep Jake calm and at the same time, let him learn from the experience. If an accident happens that made me lose my grip on the leash (on a trail, lets say my footing slips over rocks or a hole in the ground), and Jake bolted towards the horses, then I would NOT want anyone else to take it upon themselves to train him for me. Those riders are strangers, he’s not going to gain any benefit from them. He needs ME, the pack leader, the teacher, the one he knows and respects, to show him what’s what. Jake is a herding dog, so I already can tell you that he would appear aggressive, circling back and forth by or around the horses, howling. What you don’t see is that he’s actually too afraid to go anywhere near the horses, so trust me, you’re completely safe. The horses are at a greater risk, at that point, to turn tail and run, and for that I’d accept full responsibility and apologize until I’m blue in the face, but accidents happen. If you let anger take over and smack my dog, I’m going to get angry as well and I’m no longer thinking as the owner who made a mistake. I’m now thinking as an enraged owner who watched some moron touch property that isn’t hers to touch and possibly damage it (Jake’s a sensitive guy; I have to tailor his training to meet with the specific way his brain is wired)

Absolutely no one, owner or otherwise, should even THINK about training a dog while angry. There’s nothing more stupid than disciplining a dog through anger. Always have a sense of calm or else there’s the risk that you’re making a huge mistake that’s going to mess that dog up. Another big reason the OP shouldn’t have touched the dog. If he had to be disciplined, she should have waited for the owner to reach them so she could do it herself. If the owner felt that the situation didn’t warrant discipline, then that’s her prerogative, just like it’s the rider’s prerogative whether or not she decides to scold the horse for freaking. It’s her dog, her “property,” and it’s not anyone else’s right to decide what to do with him.

I cannot believe the people who are arguing that an out of control, full grown Boxer ripping the leash away from his owner and charging a horse is ACCEPTABLE.

I don’t think anyone said it is acceptable, just that accidents happen, and horses and riders should be prepared. I can’t imagine why the horse spooked, if the rider had the horse facing the dogs before the dog got loose.

I have a four-year-old horse, still green, obviously, but if she spooks at a dog, bike, deer, four-wheeler, golf cart, hot air balloon, paraplane, oil well - all things we’ve encountered in the last month - well, than that means I haven’t done my job and have more work to do. The thing is, she doesn’t. She trusts her rider, stops and looks, then moves on when asked. If you can’t train your horse not to spook at dogs, then you need either a professional trainer or to ride in a controlled environment.

If anyone considers my dog threatening, I would fully support what ever they did to “diffuse” the situation. I might not be happy about it, but I don’t want someone to be afraid of my dogs or their horses.

If a strange dog came over to my horses, I would do what is necessary to get the dogs to leave me and my horse alone. Whatever it takes. If I am on horse back, I will chase at dog and growl at it. If the dog has left its property as it is “guarding” it, I will tell it good dog. It is doing its job. If the dog/s are packing up and dividing and conquering, I will stand ground and charge at nearest dogs. I will protect my horse and charge at the dogs as needed.

I was in a nasty situation a while ago. A large “pack” of dogs lived on a corner that I rarely go down. I was cutting up the dirt road back towards home when a large pack of not so nice dogs flanked us in the woods, circling around us. I used mare to walk towards lead dog, chased it. Went to the next threat, chased it…eventually able to walk out of the situation. Mare is not scared of dogs, but when a pack is “hunting” us, I will do whatever I have to do to not get attacked.

I have no problem with loose dogs that are off leash. I know the difference, therefor, my mare knows the difference.

[QUOTE=mustangtrailrider;4829079]

I was in a nasty situation a while ago. A large “pack” of dogs lived on a corner that I rarely go down. I was cutting up the dirt road back towards home when a large pack of not so nice dogs flanked us in the woods, circling around us. I used mare to walk towards lead dog, chased it. Went to the next threat, chased it…eventually able to walk out of the situation. Mare is not scared of dogs, but when a pack is “hunting” us, I will do whatever I have to do to not get attacked.[/QUOTE]

That’s a different situation. Even if almost all the dogs are well-trained, well-behaved animals, all it takes is one mischievous little guy and the whole pack literally goes into the “pack mentality” and you’ve got a mob on your hands. Even the owners of the dogs could have a difficult time getting the dogs back in hand, unless they were proactive and got all the dogs rounded up and tied, their attentions on their owner(s). The owner that lets his pack escalate is an irresponsible owner. I would like to think that anyone who has a group of dogs knows what they are capable of, and plan things out in advance. You know, looking ahead down the trail, making sure all 7 doggie noses are accounted for, calling them back to you every now and then (keep the reflexes sharp!), and of course, calling everyone back to you when you so much as hear a twig snap a mile down the trail.

Call me crazy but even if the dog came running up to me and a baby in a stroller I wouldn’t have had a fit. Been there done that with big dogs and small children. My response “Hello puppy” and then I usually meet the dog and the owner. This dog was running up out of curiousity not barking and foaming at the mouth.

Everybody really just needs to relax.

yeah, what’s the big deal? 99.9% of dogs aren’t going to just run up to you and tear you limb from limb, especially if you are calm and relaxed when they arrive. Animals are animals, and even the best behaved ones occasionally don’t behave, and leashes/collars do fail at times.

I’ve seen little dog owners TRIGGER attacks by loose big dogs entirely due to their freaking out at the calm, curious dog’s approach. What do you think a dog will do if some person scoops up some strange animal and starts shrieking and waving the little thing around EXACTLY like a schutzhund trainer trying to excite a dog into attacking?

When my son was young we were walking along a sidewalk next to a busy road. We came to a driveway for a restaurant as a car was pulling in. I could see the car wasn’t going to stop for us and I waited - pulling my son back from getting hit by the car.

I asked my son why he didn’t stop for the car. He told me that he had the “right of way” and the car had to stop for him. I explained that being “right” was not as important as being alive.

Like the present situation, it has nothing to with who is right and who is wrong. If you take your horse out on trail, it is YOUR responsibility to be prepared and accept the risks.

You can be 100% right, 100% wrong or somewhere inbetween. The problem is that none of that matters when you get seriously hurt (or worse). Loose dogs, rabid raccoons, illegal ATVs, naked joggers with ninja swords… whether right or wrong, it HAPPENS. You and your horse better be prepared to deal with it or simply accept that you may get hurt and cause injury to others.

Another reality already pointed out is that the dog owners (along with bicycles, hikers and just about every other outdoor group) outnumber and outweigh us. We also present a much higher liability factor than most of those other trail users (that “cute” boxer sniffing your horse’s legs is perceived as a lesser danger than your 1000 lb horse which could easily trample you, the dog and its owner).

It sucks, but it in incumbent on the horse community to be prepared for these situations. Whether the “complaint” comes from the horse community or from people complaining about the horses on trail, it will be elimination of equestrian trail use that is the “solution.”