I have had great success with sending a mare out to be bred with frozen, but having it done on the farm in the past did not work out so well. For the past 5 years I have stuck with fresh and have handled the inseminations myself with great success.
I would like to experiment with frozen again in the next few years.
As other posters have said - for me its not worth using frozen for stallions standing in NA unless it is at a very discounted price.
[QUOTE=PremiumWarmbloods;6690096]
As other posters have said - for me its not worth using frozen for stallions standing in NA unless it is at a very discounted price.[/QUOTE]
This.
[QUOTE=baywithchrome2;6682802]
Domestic stallion owners and their advisors need to be much more aware of the pricing of frozen semen in the global market and objectively analyze where their stallion falls in terms of:
I can’t think of a single stallion in this market that could be compared to Calido, yet there are many stallions that charge more than Calido’s $2,000 dose fee. And this is just one example of top international stallions that can be purchased from Europe at a fraction of the cost that American competition stallions are charging. Sadly, and very frustrating for American breeders, American stallion owners are charging themself right out of the game before it even starts.
Most definitely! But look at how Europe prices their young stallions. Their pricing model is realistic and reflective of the additional risk that the breeder is taking by using an unproven stallion. This is true for fresh semen pricing, as well.[/QUOTE]
Great post. I use frozen all of the time. I am at about 90% with 1st round frozen. I use a great vet, manage how I want the mare bred, use known semen, and don’t cut corners. I have a better success rate then with fresh. I will say this though. I use stallions that have been used enough to know how they breed. This tends to occur more often, and more consistently in Germany. Someone mentioned Calido, he has hundreds of offspring, many of which are competing at the highest levels of sport. I will pay his price. If I am going to use frozen, I will look at all of my options. Those stallions that I can garner enough information on production and type of mares best used will get my selection. For me its the best stallion, with the best production, and the best semen. I paid just under 1700 for 2 doses of a stallion with hundreds of offspring and was rated the best stallion for 2 separate studbooks. I got my mare pregnant with the 1st dose, so it will be about $850 a breeding. This is what domestic stallion owners will have to compete with.
Tim
I prefer to use frozen for the advantages it has plus I do my own breeding and so it cuts down on the vet costs associated with frozen.
I would not use fresh from a stallion in the US. No way, no how. I would use frozen if I felt the perfect stallion was in the US and the cost was reasonable.
Hello again…
It’s very encouraging to see how many posters are using frozen as opposed to fresh. There is one point that seems to come up often which is the “price per dose”.
I would encourage breeders to inquire regularly about what the “price per dose” is for a stallion who is being offered with frozen. I, for example, have many stallions who are frozen mostly because they are still competing, each one of them have a “stud fee”, but ALL of them are priced per dose as well. Almost all of these stallions are priced under 600 usd per dose. I think sticker shock can be a factor when looking at the cost of a full breeding to a stallion, and many stallion owners are not advertising prices per dose. Perhaps it is a better strategy to do just that?
From a stallion owners perspective, and we also have several others we do not own but represent, standing a competing stallion for fresh and frozen, as they do often in Europe is very difficult! There are not the stations here in abundance that a competitive stallion can lay over in to collect for fresh inbetween competitions like there are across the pond. Most often you have to get them when they are young and the demands in sport are less, or you have to wait for fresh when they are retired from sport. There aren’t a whole lot of options.
We’re so used to seeing a “stud fee”, that we forget (for frozen) thatthere are more options?! Many stallion owners are offering discounts as the market demands. However, stallion owners struggle continuously for notariety which comes in the form of sport results. Much of this comes from the lack of support and influence our stallions have from the market we are in and the competition from the Europeans. They’ve been in it longer and we’re struggling with proving we can do it just as well.
Without going on to much more, I am refreshed by all the posters who are in support of using frozen semen. I continue to advocate for the NA stallion owners who have great horses to offer to breeders here. Sometimes, it takes a leap of faith and sometimes it takes time in the sand box.
Cheers
Here’s the thing. Breeders in this country say we don’t have stallions available here that can “compete” with the stallions in Europe. While I definitely agree many who stand stallions have unrealistic breeding fees, but many do! And there are certainly stallions out there that have more than fulfilled the performance requirements that breeders are looking for. With regards to production of offspring, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because mare owners are opting to swim across the pond for semen, stallions on this side don’t get used as often - indeed, many stallions won’t see the number of mares in their lifetime that stallions in Europe will get in a breeding season. Consequently, they don’t have offspring out there to compete. Because they don’t have offspring out there competing, they don’t get used <head/desk>. Additionally, because some stallions are used so heavily and on some top mares, it becomes somewhat of a shotgun effect - if they breed 1,000 mares, there darn well better be a few that make it into international competition! But which is the better stallion? The one that bred 100 mares and got 2 offspring to the top of the game? Or the stallion that bred 1000 mares and got 5 up there?
I definitely think that the Germans have a much better marketing machine and know how to promote even the youngest stallions - Jack Sparrow comes to mind ;). I wish we had the venues available to us over here that is available in Europe. We don’t. Even doing shows is an expensive proposition. So a stallion with equal credentials to his European counterpart - it will have cost the owners considerably more to have achieved that level of competition. Not complaining, just stating the facts.
But I digress ;). We like using frozen semen because it’s on hand and available when the mare is ready. No worries about shows, holidays, or needing it suddenly. We follow the mare and check every six hours as she’s getting closer to ovulation. We don’t use two doses unless we know it’s a problem stallion :P… In our own breeding program, we typically use mostly domestic stallions, and of course, our own stallions :D. Frozen semen is relatively easy to use, but it does require attention to detail. I think as the quality of frozen has improved dramatically over the last 20 years, it is becoming less and less “scary” for many practitioners to use. But, as has been noted, there is no safety net in place for most frozen semen that is imported.
I personally want to see our domestically bred horses out there in international competition. I keep hoping that both riders and breeders would have that kind of pride in what we produce. All too often, the attitude is that it just isn’t available here without the effort being made to really check - the ol’ saying that we don’t notice what is in our own backyard holds true. But, until we “do” believe in what we are producing and “do” support our own, we will never be contenders :(.
[QUOTE=HyperionStudLLC;6692873]
From a stallion owners perspective, and we also have several others we do not own but represent, standing a competing stallion for fresh and frozen, as they do often in Europe is very difficult! There are not the stations here in abundance that a competitive stallion can lay over in to collect for fresh inbetween competitions like there are across the pond. Most often you have to get them when they are young and the demands in sport are less, or you have to wait for fresh when they are retired from sport. There aren’t a whole lot of options.
We’re so used to seeing a “stud fee”, that we forget (for frozen) thatthere are more options?! Many stallion owners are offering discounts as the market demands. However, stallion owners struggle continuously for notariety which comes in the form of sport results. Much of this comes from the lack of support and influence our stallions have from the market we are in and the competition from the Europeans. They’ve been in it longer and we’re struggling with proving we can do it just as well.
Without going on to much more, I am refreshed by all the posters who are in support of using frozen semen. I continue to advocate for the NA stallion owners who have great horses to offer to breeders here. Sometimes, it takes a leap of faith and sometimes it takes time in the sand box.
Cheers[/QUOTE]
I’ve had this very conversation with a lot of fellow breeders, both from a mare and stallion owner perspective. I don’t think anybody will argue the point that American-based stallions have an uphill climb versus their European counterparts, for a whole variety of reasons. But, in my humble opinion, the single greatest sustainable competitive advantage that American stallions have is fresh semen with a LFG. And this is what stallion owners and their
advisors need to seize on if they want to increase their breedings. Yes, advertising frozen semen on a per dose basis
makes sense, but as many have indicated in this thread, many of these stallions just do not have sufficient market appeal to justify the additional risk and expense of frozen semen.
There is no denying that there are stallions that can not be collected while competing, but there are many that can and even compete better because they are regularly collected. Look at all of the Spy Coast stallions… they all compete year round and are collected, even Amaretto D’Arco. There are many others that do the very same thing. It takes a stallion owner and rider/trainer who are willing to give the stallion a chance to prove that he can do both. It also takes a mare owner that is willing to work more closley with the stallion owner to make sure the days are syncing up. BUT, if I can gain access to an international competition stallion with fresh semen LFG and support American stallion owners, sign me up and I’ll just jump through the requisite hoops :D!
I would agree with the posters who said that having fresh semen is considered an advantage to me personally as I won’t use frozen again.
I have tried twice to breed with frozen and didn’t find it convenient at all. First, I had to go through a great effort to get the frozen. I was dealing with three people; the semen broker, the shipper and the renter of the shipping container. Yes, the semen cost was less/breeding than a fresh breeding but the costs at the vet were much higher, and once I factored in the container rental ect, I saved nothing. It was extremely inconvenient to have to co-ordinate this container rental with the semen seller, not only that but the semen seller didn’t take credit cards so I had to wait while I mailed them a cheque before they would ship the semen. I also had to take the horse to the clinic rather than have her at home, I had to pay for the semen to be stored in the vets tank. I have never had a hassle like this dealing with fresh; I deal with stallion owner only and have had one shipment arrive on time and always had a pregnancy first try.
With frozen, I had no pregnancy after two attempts on two different mares who have always conceived first try with fresh. This was extremely disapointing as a hobby breeder who only breeds one or two mares/year. It meant I have one mare open and another, who I couldn’t afford to leave open, foaling in July. It’s been impossible to catch that mare up to a spring breeding time, so now I always have a July foal when I like to foal in May, all due to the frozen debacle.
I also used what is supposed to be one of the top repo facilities in my area at great expense and still had no conception.
[QUOTE=baywithchrome2;6693365]
But, in my humble opinion, the single greatest sustainable competitive advantage that American stallions have is fresh semen with a LFG. And this is what stallion owners and their
advisors need to seize on if they want to increase their breedings. Yes, advertising frozen semen on a per dose basis makes sense, but as many have indicated in this thread, many of these stallions just do not have sufficient market appeal to justify the additional risk and expense of frozen semen.[/QUOTE]
This. As long as there is fresh semen available from quality stallions, that’s what I’d use. I’ve never had a problem knowing when I’ll need it and getting it shipped on time, even with a M W F stallion.
[QUOTE=Donatella;6693597]
I’ve never had a problem knowing when I’ll need it and getting it shipped on time, even with a M W F stallion.[/QUOTE]
We ourselves won’t book/breed to a stallion that is only collected Monday/Wednesday/Friday. It’s tough enough getting everything lined up for shipped semen that it doesn’t need to be made even more difficult. Comes back to that “service” thing :). We will actually collect and ship 7 days a week on our boys and indeed collected and shipped last Saturday for a Sunday delivery for one client. If I am willing to commit and support my fellow breeders, I also believe that the service and commitment needs to be there on their part as well!
[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6693614]
We ourselves won’t book/breed to a stallion that is only collected Monday/Wednesday/Friday. It’s tough enough getting everything lined up for shipped semen that it doesn’t need to be made even more difficult. [/QUOTE]
I don’t like M W F either, I was just making the example that I’ve even been able to make it work using a M W F stallion and coordinating enough to use fresh has never been a problem. 
ETA, I’m on the mare owner end, I don’t stand a stallion.
If stallions can be had at price per dose, why wouldn’t that be listed on the SOs website? I take SO websites and the information listed with the registries at face value. Spy Coast, for example, lists price per dose, fresh with LFG, etc so I know what the options are. They also usually have a schedule of when the stallions are available for fresh collection during the year which is a bonus. Perhaps others should follow their example if there are more options for their stallions than what is in print.
In reading the thread, what struck an absolute cord with me and what I feel bears reading again was written by baywithchrome.
Case in point, there are a few competition stallions that interest me. One is very new to US soil. When abroad he could be had for under $1000 with LFG. Now that he’s here, he’s $2500 frozen and I’ve not seen that to be LFG either. Nothing has changed other than ownership and where he’s standing.
I wont even entertain this stallion as he’s overpriced at this time. Maybe he’s available on a per dose basis but nowhere is that written. So a pass.
I have used and will continue to use US based stallions if it makes sense to do so. I used one this year on two mares. He’s proven in sport and in the shed and has a stud fee that I didn’t even blink at. In fact, he is actually a stallion I feel could, in the near future, raise the stud fee and would still get a nice number of mares. His management is keenly aware of the market and has made him very attractive.
I have also used frozen. Top EU stallions with stellar pedigrees, progeny results and show results at a very reasonable price.
I have no aversion to frozen as I have mares that are fine with frozen and a fantastic vet.
I prefer frozen by Euopean stallions and breed mostly ET. Having competent Vet services and knowing the success rate of frozen (other breeders success) is key. I don’t like paying fresh stud fees…the ones I might have been interested in were too expensive so they don’t get my business. I don’t like booking fees or long lengthy questionnaires and all the other stuff I see in fresh contracts. It’s too much hassle so I use frozen exclusively with success.
[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6693614]
We ourselves won’t book/breed to a stallion that is only collected Monday/Wednesday/Friday. It’s tough enough getting everything lined up for shipped semen that it doesn’t need to be made even more difficult. Comes back to that “service” thing :). We will actually collect and ship 7 days a week on our boys and indeed collected and shipped last Saturday for a Sunday delivery for one client. If I am willing to commit and support my fellow breeders, I also believe that the service and commitment needs to be there on their part as well![/QUOTE]
I will never, ever again book to a MWF stallion. I don’t care how incredibly fabulous he is, I have spent my last night pondering how to manipulate a cycle to coincide with such a collection and shipping schedule. It is even worse when the stallion is a couple of time zones away, as coordinating both ends, mare and shipping schedule, is almost impossible.
I have had reasonably good luck with frozen semen, probably because I have access to a very good repro. vet. It isn’t appreciably more for me to breed with frozen. Per cycle is about the same, but boarding of the mare adds to the cost. Losing the hassle of worrying about shipping semen is really nice; the frozen is waiting right there, as mentioned. That said, though, there are some really wonderful stallions and stallion owners in the US, and next year I have one each coming, a frozen baby and a fresh cooled.
Well I can say that I did rule out stallions this year because the stallions I was interested in for a 13 yo maiden for next year were all listed as frozen for 2013. That said any time I have not had success with frozen there were plenty of reasons the mares did not settle besides the fact the semen was frozen. I am big on costs…frozen has cost more than fresh for me and I haven’t had any success yet. I know many of you have said that maiden 13 yo mares don’t need fresh and I respect your opinion. That said if I were going with frozen(with confidence) I would be breeding to a particular stallion only available frozen due to actively competitng and costing quite alot too. Since I have decided to spend this year proving the mare can get in foal I am going with an exciting choice but only a 2nd season stallion who is discounted and fresh. I will stay with the same stallion station and hope to get discount breedings for 1 or 2 more mares to the same or other stallion options. I do have some frozen in the storage and have the cost of that through the year as well…kind of annoyed by the cost too. THAT semen needs to be proven or tossed so I will make a big effort to prove that semen this year so any decision has lots of factors not just frozen or not frozen.
For me I have to keep the costs down as I know the price range I can sell foals at is not over 7.5k…if I was getting 10k+ for foals I would take more frozen risks. We do pasture breeding to keep costs down as well. If I use a stallion in my situation I am not likely to get a huge advantage in foal prices as I sell over 3 yos mostly. So short of breeding to a stallion I adore as a one time splurge I count total costs and the extra vet costs for frozen are tough to justify.
I have used more frozen semen than fresh over the years. My vet actually prefers frozen, because we never have the Chinese fire drill ordering it to arrive at the right time. There are more expenses in using frozen, even with a very experienced vet.
If I use frozen with a domestic stallion I either want a LFG with ample supply of doses or I want absolutely tried and true frozen without a LFG at a discount price. Last year Hilltop started offering some of their best stallions at very reasonable prices, selling by the single dose and I bought 3 doses and was tickled to have the freedom to get 3 pregnancies if I was lucky.
As others have stated, for better or worse, there is a feeling among most buyers that a foal by a foreign stallion will be better. Their theory is often wrong, but convincing a buyer of that is a challenge. They have to have an eye for a foal, and very few have that.
If I can use frozen from a really good foreign stallion that is super potent and costs $1000 (or a bit more or a lot less) per dose or frozen (or fresh) from a wonderful domestic stallion that is super potent, has a LFG, but costs $2000 and up, I will probably go with the foreign stallion and hope that the mare conceives on one dose.
This is a wonderful topic…I have learned a lot and I have a better idea of the thought process of other US breeders and the thinking of stallion and successful mares owners. Thanks. It has occured to me that with my older maiden mare I would be farther ahead to try her her first year with less expensive frozen in stead of fresh her first year to prove her fertility and her ability to get in foal with frozen. I know there are many vets in my area who have done well with frozen so if I have the courage to test the mare not the vet I will be farther ahead.
While the difference in the cost of the stud fee between the North American based and the European based stallion has been discussed, a point that I have not yet seen made when comparing those stud fees is the potential gross income made per year from those fees. For European stallions the stud fee (or semen cost if you will) may perhaps be an average of $600 vs. the NA average of say $1500, but let’s take a look at the gross income aspect! The moderately successful European stallion may expect to breed 150 mares, so their gross income is going to be in the region of $90,000. The moderately successful NA stallion will perhaps breed 20 mares at $1500 so a gross income of $30,000 - a third of their European counterpart.
“Reduce the stud fees to compete with the European market” I am seeing here, but even if the stud fees are reduced, the moderately successful (and I am using that group as an “average”) stallion here is still not going to increase his number of breedings significantly - the market is too limited - and if they halved their stud fee to $750, the expectation of breeding twice the number of mares (50) to gross the same amount is simply not realistic!
There was reference made to the stallion that was standing in Europe for under $1,000 but has jumped to $2,500 now he’s in NA. Well, that calculated figure ties in well with the expectation of grossing 1/3 of the income he would have made in Europe! If his stud fee were $800 in Europe, it is now just about 3 times as much here in order to compensate for the significantly fewer mares he will breed here.
We can also look at it from a mare owner’s perspective.
Recently over in Ireland we were talking with a stallion owner who was breeding ponies. “How many mares did he cover last year?” we asked. “Fifty” was the reply. We considered this pretty respectable until we discovered that the stud fee was €50! We then went to the sales at Cavan - one of Ireland’s largest sales venues. We saw the “Elite Sport Horse Sale” as well as the Connemara Pony Sales. Top price at the “Elite” sale? Somewhere around €6,000 - and this was an adult horse, not youngstock!!! No, I didn’t miss any zeros, that’s six thousand Euros!! At the pony sale, it was even more depressing. There were “no bids” at €100 or less!! Remember that the huge prices that we periodically hear about at sales like Verden and Vechta are the top end prices - there are far more horses sold for significantly less - including the thriving meat market for rejects. I think you will find the average price in Europe across the board is significantly lower than that seen in North America!
So it is difficult to compare the two markets in a fair and realistic manner. If one were to be completely fair when arguing that the stud fees need to be reduced to reflect the European market, then it is also going to be a requisite that the cost of young stock be reduced in a similarly comparative manner, and I’m pretty sure nobody wants that!
JMHO 
so many different opinions here–and most all of them sound viable even when they are in disagreement with another. One big factor is having a good breeding vet near–one that can get a mare pregnant with either fresh or with frozen semen. And believe me that is harder than it might sound. Try living somewhere rural and not just over the hill from the big university or clinic with the experienced breeding vet on staff. Try to be breeding mares on a commercial basis–that is not dumping tons of vet $ into what turns out to be a non-pregnancy or a “normal” foal. Some of you don’t have a clue about how hard it can be without that vet who has the “touch”.
And some made some very good points about the fact that “normal” stallions stand here in the States or in Canada and advertise that they want say $1,500 for a stud fee–plus then a few even have the gall to try to tack on a booking fee, and oh yes then there are the collection fees. (sounds like the system was designed by some of our too-big-to-fail bankers). Just check out the stallions standing all over Europe. Top class ones going for 1,000Euros–of course there are a select few who go for more, but there are tons of really good well bred stallions with competition results and foal results that go for 700 or 800Euros. And if you are a Hannoverian breeder, you even get them for less than the published price if you are choosing a Celle stallion. Ditto the Holsteiners if you are using a Verband owned stallion. And a few other Verbands who have registry owned stallion stations.
So, I have concluded that if you can just find that vet, and if you have a really, really nice well bred mare, and can pick a really good match in a European stallion for that mare, frozen will give you your best outcome. Much better than taking a less attractive, less valuable (who?) stallion here in the States.
But it is not cheap no matter which way you go. I figure if I had a good year, I ended up spending probably $2,000 or more per live foal by the time I have bought the semen, paid the vet, inoculated, etc. the mare throughout the pregnancy (and yes, even give regumate on occasion), delivered the foal, and paid to get its papers. I add up all my costs on all the mares I tried to get pregnant that season, and divide it by the number of live foals who got papers. For three 2012 colts, my cost per colt was about $2,400. But all were with fresh semen and in that cost was a frozen semen from one stallion that didn’t work. Further, I get stallion breedings in exchange for favors, etc. so have access to some good fresh stallions (mind you a narrow selection) and that helps to keep the cost down. Otherwise, my costs would probably be in the $3,000 plus range per live foal and I don’t see any cost savings on paying for a North American normal fresh semen stallion versus a top quality, top name European frozen semen stallion–again assuming you find that breeding vet that can get the mare pregnant on one dose, one cover.
There was reference made to the stallion that was standing in Europe for under $1,000 but has jumped to $2,500 now he’s in NA. Well, that calculated figure ties in well with the expectation of grossing 1/3 of the income he would have made in Europe! If his stud fee were $800 in Europe, it is now just about 3 times as much here in order to compensate for the significantly fewer mares he will breed here
I made that reference and I absolutely disagree in this particular case . The marketing advisors are the same advisors to a few other circuit stallions. They are overpriced and it has nothing to do with wanting to make the same amount of money they might of made in EU. It has everything to do with the ownership and purchase price of the stallion.
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