Genuine seller having bad experience with PPE. How to prevent this in the future?

[IPEsq]

That doesn’t sound like a great experience for you or the potential buyer. If I was a buyer and got that kind of report, I’d actually be mad about it if the vet can’t provide any reason other than lack of muscle for the conclusions. Unless they think the horse has some kind of disease causing muscle wasting or something like that. But at the end of the day, it’s up to the buyer to determine if they want to take the vet’s advice or not or pay for a second opinion or not, and sometimes badly performed PPEs do kill a sale, but it may or may not be anything actionable against that vet.

I had one friend selling a horse, and she complained that the PPE vet spent way too much effort on front fetlock flexions, and ultimately the horse flexed a bit off and it killed the sale. I’ve had vets tell me personally you can make any horse lame just about if you do flexions badly, with ankle flexions being a common example given for overdoing it. But if the buyer isn’t experienced enough to see that was maybe one flexion too many or who would move onto xrays, then that’s just one of those things that happens in horse sales.

This is why it’s called “practicing”. Another friend of mine was selling a high end horse, competing at a top level. Never had any “maintenance” or soundness problems. One vet found something and said the horse wouldn’t possibly hold up. Killed that sale. Different buyer used another practice. Both well respected practices. Second vet said it was not an unexpected finding for horse’s age and mileage and that it might require some maintenance but would be an easy thing to manage and they’d be happy to help with it if it ever became symptomatic, which it wasn’t at the time of either exam. Same issue and two totally different opinions from two sport horse vets.

I would just move on and find another buyer.

[knic]

Thanks for sharing. There are jobs I wouldn’t want to do right now with this horse before gaining muscle. BUT it has the weight to be able to build muscle.

Agree the PPE vet went too far on that one.

[greywithchrome]

@ihearttbs

It literally states that the horse is too underweight and undermuscled to perform the job the buyer wanted him for.

To be fair, this isn’t telling the buyer to purchase or not purchase the horse. This very well might be true (from the perspective of the vet and the buyer). The buyer could easily still choose to purchase the horse with intention of putting weight and muscle on it.

[MsM]

I have known vets who were infamous for never finding a sound horse. Their PPEs always sounded alarming as every bad possibility was mentioned. Those who knew him, were able to read between the lines and see that the “less bad” horse was actually sound and suitable. But it did get to the point where some sellers would not allow him to do a PPE on their horses.

I have also seen over-zealous young vets start out that way. However over time they developed a better perspective.

[dmveventer]

I agree with others that there are several more likely explanations than sabotage three years after the fact by a vet that wasn’t even there when you were a client. The industry is trending a lot more conservative on PPEs in general since clients are more likely to post online or sue if something goes wrong, and I’d expect a new vet to be even more conservative since they don’t have the same experience to put potential issues into context. The buyer could also have given the vet specific instructions about their risk tolerance or intended use for the horse or any number of things that could have changed how the vet approached the exam. The buyer could even have the same take on the findings as you do but still see it as an opportunity to negotiate the price. PPEs are always subjective, as the seller all you can do is offer up your honest take if the buyer asks and let them make their own decision.

I don’t think you have anything to gain by contacting the vet’s office, especially since from what you’ve written here you don’t necessarily disagree with the core of the findings (horse did flex on the day and does need more muscle). They’re not going to tell you anything about their instructions from the buyer, and any way you frame the conversation is going to be a bad look for you. If word gets around that you tried to talk a vet into changing their PPE findings to push through a sale it could impact your credibility with other buyers and other vets in the area. Just let it go. If the horse really is healthy and actively doing its job the right buyer will see that.

[dmveventer]

@OverandOnward

I just wanted to hear from you that you your practice encourages sound evidence-based assessments, and that you send a vet with experience in the discipline of the buyer.’

YMMV but if I was on the receiving end of this phone call I’d find it incredibly passive aggressive and insulting. You’re not just disagreeing with their findings in this one case, you’re insinuating that their entire practice is incompetent in general. What are you expecting them to say in response, that they DON’T encourage sound evidence-based assessments? They’re going to give a party line “we hold ourselves to the highest standards but we can’t discuss our clients’ personal information” and write it off as a disgruntled seller without ever opening the file to review.

If you absolutely must say something I would do it by email so you aren’t interrupting their day and putting them immediately on the defensive, and keep it factual and unemotional. “I was surprised by some of the findings on this PPE, I understand the vet is new so I thought you might want to review it as a possible teaching moment, I understand you can’t discuss any details with me and am not trying to overturn the findings.” They’ll still probably ignore it but at least the vet will have time to let the knee-jerk annoyance pass before they decide how to proceed.

[ZuzusPetals]

Good point.

Also I tell myself: In every graduating class, from high school to post-doc, someone has the lowest GPA.

[OverandOnward]

@dmveventer

If word gets around that you tried to talk a vet into changing their PPE findings to push through a sale it could impact your credibility with other buyers and other vets in the area.

No one has suggested that.

Only to make the practice management aware of how their new young vet chose to present her PPE findings to buyers, in a way that seemed inconsistent with the horse on the day. Nothing would change about the PPE, it is over and done with.

@dmveventer

You’re not just disagreeing with their findings in this one case, you’re insinuating that their entire practice is incompetent in general.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion from what I wrote. Way off base.

@dmveventer

“I was surprised by some of the findings on this PPE, I understand the vet is new so I thought you might want to review it as a possible teaching moment, I understand you can’t discuss any details with me and am not trying to overturn the findings.” They’ll still probably ignore it but at least the vet will have time to let the knee-jerk annoyance pass before they decide how to proceed.

That is what I was suggesting. Different phraseology, same message.

[ihearttbs]

I would never consider asking a vet to change the ppe findings! I admit that thinking the practice was being vindictive is probably paranoia on my part, I just truly was so shocked by the write up that that’s the first place my head went to. I am now honestly just trying to understand what I read in the ppe report. I haven’t shared the exact language, but it was shockingly opinionated compared to what I have seen in the past, which is vets (even ones with decades of experience) always being very cautious about venturing away from objective information, and allowing the buyer make their own decision from primarily objective information. This ppe basically told the buyer not to buy the horse, and also conveyed several pieces of actually incorrect information, whether by mistake or not. If that’s normal and my gauge of what is typical/normal for a ppe write-up is off, I’m fully willing to accept that, but it would be nice to hear from a more experienced vet what their take on all of it is.

[RooTheDay]

@ihearttbs

This ppe basically told the buyer not to buy the horse

I know that experiences vary here, but every time I’ve PPE’d a horse, I have gotten a “yes, buy the horse” or a “no, don’t buy the horse.” This may be because I explicitly choose to use vets who will give me that answer, but I’m glad I have that option, because frankly, that’s what I’m paying for: an expert opinion as to suitability for my use case and risk tolerance given findings on that day.

(I actually just got a second opinion after a no from someone on one I really liked. Unfortunately, the second opinion, from my very good sports med vet, was also no. But I did ask for and receive that clear answer.)

[Lusoluv]

Maybe you can have a PPE conducted on your horse by a vet you trust, then show them the other PPE report and compare results afterwards?

[dmveventer]

@ihearttbs

I would never consider asking a vet to change the ppe findings!

Whether you word it that way or not this is how it’s going to come across, and how it’ll be relayed through the grapevine when/if people talk about it. If there are actual factual inaccuracies (ie. birth year is listed as X when its actually Y) you could flag those for the buyer directly and let them decide if they still trust the PPE as a whole. That said, I think you may be reading too much into the objective vs subjective thing. PPEs are inherently subjective IME - it’s a single vet’s assessment of whether the horse can perform the buyer’s intended job based on one exam at a single point in time. The buyer is paying for the vet’s opinion.

@OverandOnward

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion from what I wrote. Way off base.

@OverandOnward

That is what I was suggesting. Different phraseology, same message.

No, my point is that your phraseology did not send the same message whether that’s what you intended or not. There’s basically no way this conversation goes well, which is why I wouldn’t have the conversation at all.

[ihearttbs]

@dmveventer

Whether you word it that way or not this is how it’s going to come across, and how it’ll be relayed through the grapevine when/if people talk about it. If there are actual factual inaccuracies (ie. birth year is listed as X when its actually Y) you could flag those for the buyer directly and let them decide

I did flag the inaccuracies for the buyer, but the damage was done. I typically keep my mouth shut even when I think vets are in error, regardless of the situation, and I originally was not considering contacting the practice, but after thinking about it, why shouldn’t a senior vet in a practice not be informed of what I perceive to be misjudgment based on lack of experience in a less experienced vet? Isn’t it better for me to go directly to them and start a conversation than to pass around in my circles that I had a bad experience with such and such vet and potentially not allow them to return to my property? If I’m wrong I’m wrong but there is no harm in a senior vet reviewing a less experienced vet’s ppes. If anything it should be done more often to try to standardize things. I’m not going to create drama or be unprofessional, but wording in a ppe does matter, and for me as a young professional barely getting by, a vet needs to think carefully about word choices that can make or break my business. I should say I’m more focused on the use of strong, subjective language than the subjectivity of the exam itself, which yes some of a ppe is inherently subjective.

[dmveventer]

If you must flag it then send them a note with the pictures attached for them to review, just think carefully about what you hope to get out of it. They’re unlikely to discuss the case with you so you’ll probably never know if they took you seriously or not. If you’re really considering banning them from your property over this I don’t see how contacting them changes that for you.

And FWIW this part totally changes the tone of your intentions:

@ihearttbs

as a young professional barely getting by, a vet needs to think carefully about word choices that can make or break my business

The vet doesn’t owe your business anything. Their only responsibility is to their paying client.

[Annie10]

If there is actual factual information that is incorrect I would absolutely contact them about it.
I have found things in my own medical information on the hospital
Portal that was incorrect, obviously from the doctor cutting and pasting and neglecting to change everything they should have. That’s careless and could be important so should be brought to their attention.

I had a situation with a vet back in April
That I posted about in the venting thread. My horse was colicking all day , I had called the vet at 8 am. By 3 pm she was “running errands” an hour away and by 11 pm I was down at the vet hospital with the horse. 3 days of fluids and a $3700 vet bill later he’s fine. I absolutely believe earlier intervention would have at least alleviated that.

I wrote a very carefully very nicely worded email to the head vet about this whole thing and to this day have not received a response. I’ve been a client of that practice, and his before it was a “practice” and was just him, since 1996. To this day I have received no response.
I’m considering switching too, since this isn’t the first time problems have not been dealt with, but the issue is that very few good vets come out to where I live (1) and (2) those that do pretty much all use my current practice for their emergencies since it’s a large practice. So I’m over a barrel and not cutting of my nose , so to speak.
Whatever you do I would do it via email so it’s in writing and doesn’t invite argument.

[ihearttbs]

I wasn’t planning on including that piece. I was just explaining why this is a big deal.

[ihearttbs]

And that’s not true. They owe my business professionalism, just as I owe it to them.

[Horsecrazy3]

He doesn’t look underweight to me. Better looking like this then overweight on any horse and especially a young horse. Correct muscling will come with time in the chosen equestrian sport.

[Rel6]

OP, what I have found is that some otherwise very good vets are honestly pretty bad at PPEs. I’ve felt like some vets, either because of inexperience or being burned previously, air on the side of extreme caution - finding something wrong with every horse to keep themselves safe. From a liability point of view, it is safer for the vet to find something that causes a buyer to walk than for the buyer to purchase a horse, have something pop up later, and claim the vet missed it or misled them.

It absolutely may not be nefarious, just a vet that is not good at or comfortable with PPEs.

[cardinale]

Not every vet doing equine has a background in horses. What they know is what they learned in vet school. I’ve seen awkward situations arise where the owner clearly had more knowledge of riding and suitability than the vet. Not impugning their medical knowledge but some of them just aren’t horsemen, and it shows.

Wouldn’t surprise me if a vet–especially one fresh out of vet school–doesn’t have much knowledge of sporthorse use.