Pedophiles aren’t political dissidents. It’s frankly horrifying that you are using an argument that likens your parents and other political dissidents to a child rapist.
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You are mistaken about the process. A “report” or claim does not lead to a lifetime ban. It leads to an investigation. An investigation may or may not lead to a sanction, which could range from a letter of reprimand to a lifetime sport ban, depending on what is found.
FiSk123 who is a reporter from figure skating has kindly shared some statistics with us back on July 3.
https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…ob-gage/page45
And this one as well from July 5: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…ob-gage/page47
If your case doesn’t go to trial because the witness commits suicide, that’s not the same as exoneration.
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YOU DO NOT GET BANNED JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE ACCUSES YOU.
Repeating:
You. Do. Not. Get. Banned. Just. By. Being. Accused.
Stated another way:
Accusation =/= Banning.
Accusation does not equal banning.
This argument is null.
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This. Also. Laws are not meant to set the ethical standards which we live by. As has been mentioned numerous times, USEF is a club. An employer. Whatever it is to you. They have a duty to protect their members, specifically children, and uphold their set of standards and morals, which should absolutely be above the rock bottom that our justice system sets. As most other employers/clubs/etc set but those in the equestrian community are too entrenched/ignorant/sheltered to embrace. The backlog of rape kits is outrageous. Why what is it 1 in 18 sexual abuse crimes are even reported. Which is why the age of revelation is so high. We bash victims, our police and judicial system fails victims. There should be no statue of limitations given our knowledge on how this is all reported.
And if you really want to go there again, look at sodomy and same sex relations laws by state. Illegal.
But this whole line of thinking is frightening. People can rationalize anything these days.
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Although I’m sure you will be jumped on and accused of being a defender of pedophilia, your post isn’t crazy.
Here’s why I think your point may not be relevant to the GM case: IF it’s true there is strong evidence of GM having sexual relationships with 13 year olds, I do believe that was both illegal and frowned upon in the 1960’s, so the concern that social mores have changed and GM may not have known his conduct was bad seems misplaced.
However, here’s where I think your concern is valid (since you are feeling philosophical). There are areas of morality and law where our understanding really has evolved. For example, nowadays the endemic sexual harassment of offices in the 1950’s is certainly a civil wrong and quite possibly a crime (e.g., pinching someone’s bottom is assault and battery).
What if there was some effort now to identify those male chauvinist executives and take action against them? Would it be ok for an organization like SafeSport to hand out lifetime bans to old guys who were piggish during their prime? Would it be ok for states to lift civil statutes of limitations so women could sue them now? How about extending the criminal statute of limitations and jailing some of these men?
Sometimes these kinds of thought experiments are useful in helping us to identify underlying principles and why we feel comfortable about certain things and not others.
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You do realize that SafeSport is the law, right? The legislation was passed by Congress and signed by the President.
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I’m not sure which country your father immigrated from, but I do have some experience with this. In those dictatorships, such as Cuba, where my came from, arresting dissidents because of relationships with others is perfectly legal. China too. Totally 100% legal. Slavery was legal. etc. etc.
Focusing solely on the letter of the law can be highly problematic in a society.
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My father immigrated to the USA because of dictatorship that arrested both of his parents based on their association with the democratic leader. He grew up with Aunts and Uncles. In the USA he served the military and the many decades as USA Department Of Justice Attorney in Charge held the highest clearance serving Presidents in both parties. His cases have been upheld by the Supreme Court. Annually our home was inspected by investigators, to ensure integrity.
I uphold our Constitution.
When we stray from a land based on laws, we all will suffer in the long run.
I am not at all sure of the relevance of this information to the subject at hand.
Or is it just supposed to be a distraction? A red herring now that the rest of your arguments have proved futile at best and nonsensical at worst?
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I wasn’t using it as a defense - to be sure - of GM. It was from an earlier conversation why I was trying to help people understand why others may be negative and outraged toward this social change. I was also not using it to say “GM didn’t know his behavior was bad”. People who speed know their behavior is bad - we joke about it all the time! It’s not a legal NOR a moral defense.
The case I was attempting to make was that just because certain things are legal, societally and culturally accepted, does NOT mean that it’s defensible although people will defend it because it’s culturally accepted.
It ought to make us all think. 
That was my entire point, but it got lost because people want to believe that culturally accepted = ok. That’s been the defense of Trump (for instance) in the case “against collusion” - that his cabinet “didn’t know” that it wasn’t ok to do some things they’d been doing. But it isn’t ok, just like it isn’t ok to speed, just like it wasn’t ok to marry young girls as young as 15, despite being culturally accepted.
Is that more clear as to my expression? I’m trying, but not succeeding terrifically well, to shift the needle a bit.
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My ace in the hole here, I was around in the late 60’s, early 70’ and know first hand it was NOT OK to be an abuser, especially child abuser, just was NOT OK.
That there was abuse was rumors, but I know if anyone suspected that, they were short with those that were part of that.
They did show their displeasure and protected those under their wing, just in case the rumors were true.
I don’t buy that GM, if what he is accused of is right, “was just speeding, everyone was speeding”.
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Ok, I finally looked at the SafeSport rules, because there appears to be so much misinformation about how the arbitration process works. I have to admit, with everyone continually assuring us that there are appropriate procedural safeguards to ensure fact-finding integrity, I was a little shocked to see there is “No discovery,” except in exceptional circumstances. I also saw no reference to subpoena power.
As a litigator, the two most important tools I have are the ability to conduct discovery (for example, to identify potential witnesses or obtain relevant documents) and to subpoena witnesses (for example, the key witness who might be able to impugn the testimony of the other side’s witness). These are standard procedures in the JAMS rules, so SafeSport made a deliberate choice to disallow them.
I’m a little surprised. We have litigated high-stakes cases in JAMS, and have not had our hands tied like that. I’ll let other lawyers weigh in.
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This whole social change discussion is confusing me. OK, I get that social mores change over time. But I was a teenager 50 years ago and it was NOT OK for teachers to have relationships with teen students, male or female. I’m not sure what people have to get used to here. It is true that such things are prosecuted more often and more publicly than 50 years ago. 'Bout damn time.
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@OneGrayPony I think I get what you’re trying to say.
A big problem in our sport has been freshly aged out girls suddenly marrying or otherwise entering into public sexual relationships with their much older trainers. I was a little surprised to learn that this has been common in gymnastics and figure skating as well. Sports dominated by women at the lower levels, that yet have mostly male elite coaches. And it’s not uncommon for these to be serial … ie I’m sure we can all think of coaches who have done this more than once.
It’s skeevy and always has been, but most of the chatter has been quiet background disapproval, rather than explicit, “Dude! That’s not OK.” I’m sure most of the people participating in the ISWG group etc have attended weddings of that sort, and some their own. They’re unmoored and a little concerned.
I get that but I also don’t think that SafeSport is interested in going after cases without a claimant and I think too many people are assuming that the relationship that they think they know about is all there is to know, when it might be the tip of an unpleasant iceberg.
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I’ve been around since the 70’s. I’ve had my butt slapped by all kinds of folks through the years. I’ve watched athletes on TV slap each other’s butts as well. I’ve had a coach do it, a drunken coworker, a sibling. I’ve been tickled by uncles, aunts, siblings, friends, coaches. I’ve been hugged without asking for it. All these things now violate my personal space. If a coworker did this today, it would be assault whereas before it might have been seen culturally as a silly little pat, tickle, etc…
My French coworkers air kiss me on both cheeks when I see them. Their culture is different. Imagine kissing your American coworker? Not. Gonna. Happen.
There is a cultural aspect that should not be overlooked. What is now considered an invasion of personal space has changed. Not every situation is all out rape, and we have to keep in mind that what is considered inappropriate today was not the case in the 70’s.
For the record, I am so glad there is no more tickling allowed. I always hated it. I do miss comforting people with hugs. But slapping is a funny one. Grown men in football uniforms making millions of dollars a year used to do it. That seems to have stopped with the changing times.
Sex with a child who is not old enough to consent was always wrong. But not everything is about the act of sex. For example, what is determined to be assault has changed with time. We can’t deny there has been a cultural change. When I was a kid, a parent could spank their unruly child. In most states now, DFaCS will come after you for this. We’ve evolved. I will tell you this - if we apply the cultural norms of yesterday to today, my parents would be in jail. We cannot deny there has been a change in the standard of what is considered to be assault or inappropriate contact with a child.
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Certainly was not ok, but it was socially accepted, which is why a common stripper uniform is a schoolgirl. - Van Halen - “Hot For Teacher” (Official Music Video) - YouTube
My ace in the hole here, I was around in the late 60’s, early 70’ and know first hand it was NOT OK to be an abuser, especially child abuser, just was NOT OK.
I’m STILL NOT SAYING IT WAS OK! I don’t know how many times I can say this before my meaning is clear.
What I am SAYING is that people looked the other way for a very long time because it was ACCEPTED.
Not acceptable, but ACCEPTED. And the definition of child sexual abuse HAS CHANGED, like it or not, because the definition of the age of consent HAS CHANGED. We think of child sexual abuse as rape against an unconsenting victim but very frequently these victims do consent because of grooming, and we have decided as a society that a child cannot consent, but this is quite recent in our history.
I am NOT for one moment suggesting that GM’s behavior was OK. I am NOT suggesting that he shouldn’t be set down. He should. He should get the full book of the law and every other thing thrown at him.
What I AM saying is that those of us who are outraged should look at our own behavior with NEW eyes. We should not accept that the letter of the current law or culture is equal to morality. We should examine ourselves and say “hey, maybe I shouldn’t do this thing just because it’s culturally accepted now because SOMEDAY it might not be”.
That is what I am saying. That it’s getting twisted is hard for me to fathom.
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The criteria for Safe Sport is the preponderance of evidence. Which is the same criteria used to remove someone’s license to practice medicine.
Criminal courts do not exonerate. They find ‘not guilty’. Which is not the same as ‘innocent’.
It is why OJ was found liable in civil court after being found not guilty in criminal court.
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To keep beating my own personal dead horse…
SafeSport was created by Congress. It was explicitly created as an extra-judicial process. There were reasons why it was created to function the way it does. We keep seeing posts from attorneys who want to drag SafeSport into the judicial system. I am opposed to doing so. I’m not saying that the process can’t be improved. I posted way back in this thread some ways I thought the arbitration process could be improved. But, I think that, in general, attempting to make the process run just like the criminal justice system is not an improvement.
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IT WAS NOT ACCEPTED. IT WAS NOT ACCEPTED. IT WAS NOT ACCEPTED. How often must I say this? I WAS THERE. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A TIME IN MY LIFE WHEN IT WAS ACCEPTED FOR TEACHERS TO RAPE UNDERAGE STUDENTS. Period. I have no idea where you lived, or even if you were a teenager 50 years ago. But where you lived must have been pretty bizarre.
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Thanks poltroon - it is a huge problem for sure.
And I think those of us who knew about these things may not be judged kindly in the future when things come to light.
I know one in my region, and I don’t even know if there’s anything to be done at this juncture. There were whispers then, but they were just whispers. They are married now. At the time, it was accepted. Not acceptable, but accepted. Should those of us who saw it as skeevy have said something? Yes, that would have benefitted her and probably stopped a predator. But it was culturally accepted (not acceptable) so no one said anything.
So that people can maybe understand my position - I was definitely groomed by much older men in my early teens - think 12-13 years old. At the time, I saw the attention as flattering, and at the time I had absolutely no comprehension that it was something to be alarmed by.
I see it as a benefit that I’m seeing those things now as not okay. I wish the adults around me had seen it as not ok, but they didn’t. I was told that it was natural for older men to take an interest in young women. I was told that I was just “early to be sexually attractive”. It was culturally acceptable in the 90s to call a 12 year old sexy.
I still struggle with my rape in my early 20s because of the conversations around what a woman should and should not do and the cultural acceptance of blame because of drinking to excess (both me and my rapist)
Was it wrong then? Yes. Was it accepted then societally that it was my fault? Yes. Is it still? That’s starting to change.
It’s a GOOD thing, but what I wouldn’t have given for someone back in the 90s to say to me “hey, I get it that you were drinking, but it still isn’t ok”. But that didn’t happen because at that point in time it was tacitly acknowledged that a woman who is drinking is opening herself up for rape. In fact, a college roommate of mine was raped at a fraternity and had to leave because it was still accepted that women were “setting themselves up” by going to fraternity parties.
We should all be acting like those things that have the potential to harm others are wrong, regardless of their past history, but we should also acknowledge that the people THEN didn’t think that the others were doing wrong, so that NOW with the benefit of hindsight we can say “hey, we’ll do better by going above and beyond what culture says is ok”.
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Boo ****ing Hoo.
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