George Morris on the SS list

The reason why sexual abuse of minors went unreported “back in the day” is because it was hushed up by everyone, including victims families, because it was NOT considered normal or acceptable to molest children and young adolescents. the only thing i will grant you is victims were frequently blamed for their own abuse for “tempting” abusers.
But sexually assaulting children and young teens was really not even tacitly condoned. It was hidden because it was anathema.

eta most victims are abused by people they know and relatives. Incest is super super taboo and has been for millenia.

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reddit is just a microcosm of the whole internet.

I rather like some parts of it. The gardening sub and “what is this thing” are great. Lots of amazing stuff has happened there, pep talks from Arnold Schwarzenegger, secret santa from Bill Gates, people helping people, acts of kindness and pizza, etc. Shame that it gives a space for such disgusting stuff too, but the same can be said of any social media platform or forum space.

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Not really though, because other platforms flat out ban and remove that stuff asap. Reddit used to be great, but after all those changes I just can’t behind it. Especially with how much it supports incels and pedos. JMO tho.

I use FB groups for those gardening questions :slight_smile:

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del

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A freaking MEN. I have been trying to find a way to explain this process to people and could not figure out the right words. THANK YOU. And due to the grooming in plain sight, when the victim says something it is very hard for someone to believe them. The predator usually has a strong backing of friends or followers who will work hard to embarrass or demoralize the victim. This is why it is SO HARD to prove sexual assault, especially if there isn’t DNA evidence. I mastered in Forensic Science and let me tell you that the amount of victims who do not take legal action against their abusers is staggering. Plus, most who do, don’t win. And people wonder why victims don’t speak out. Or why suddenly so many people are saying #metoo. They finally have a voice, even if they cannot do much about it.

#METOO

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Number one is PATENTLY false from history. Absolutely false.

To pretend otherwise is to miss our culpability as a society.

I am NOT wanting any details from safe sport. I think safe sport is great. I think we should EXPAND the jurisdiction of safe sport.

I’m NOT defending GM, JW, or RG.

There have very definitely been changes in what is considered culturally accepted behavior between adults and minors. I am NOT saying that it was right. I am saying that back in those days, people didn’t report because it was culturally accepted. Keeping something a secret does not equal not being culturally accepted. Things that were culturally accepted but some felt were wrong were gossiped and whispered about, not reported. That’s the meaning of culturally accepted - they were swallowed up and whispered about, not prosecuted.

I’m saying that even now, there may be things that we accept that will be reportable later. And we should think about that. We should think about the things we snicker about or gossip about in inappropriate relationships or power imbalances.

Let me say this one more time for the people in the back - we are ALL culpable. That these people did these things is bad and wrong, I am not debating that, but we are NOT free as a society to just say “it’s their fault”. We should do some self-examination and recognize our roles in it.

And yes, we should blame them and ban them from the sport, but we should also blame our culture for what it is, and work hard to change it.

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From the NPR Believed podcast:
https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510326/believed

SMITH: Detective Munford leaves the room to grab her business card. Larry sits alone in the interview room for several long, silent minutes. He sighs, puts his head down and sits completely still as he waits.

WELLS: While MSU Police investigate, the Indianapolis Star publishes its first story about Larry Nassar - Rachael’s story. It comes out September, 12, 2016. It is a bombshell.

SMITH: But remember; to so many people, Larry is still the good guy.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Oh, my goodness, I’m shocked. I actually went to Great Lakes Gymnastics, and he took really good care of me. That’s really sad.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: I can’t believe this, Larry. I’m so sorry to hear this. You know, whatever I can do to help, let me know, you know?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: I’m sure that Dr. Nassar is totally overwhelmed with what - how this is going to affect him.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #4: The f***? You know, no way would Larry Nassar ever do this. There’s no way.

SMITH: For a lot of other people, though, Rachael’s story sparks an unsettling wave of realization. Hundreds of Larry’s patients and their parents begin to see for the very first time Larry might not be the guy they thought they knew. That’s next time on BELIEVED.

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Same, I might disagree with some cultural historiography, but have no doubt Onegraypony is not excusing or defending abusers.

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Ugh…I cried so much for those girls in that podcast.

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I think she means the oft repeated idea that all one has to do is pick up the phone and make an accusation and someone is banned.

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Here are a few studies about attitudes in the 90s (in particular) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15327671ESPR0503_4?journalCode=hjsp20

This one is really interesting, about the reasons that sexual abuse cases declined in the 90s - warning, it’s inconclusive - https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7e0d/a588f87006d789b03180c67b1805e7f78404.pdf

And then of course, who could forget the McMartin case:
https://www.amazon.com/Witch-Hunt-Narrative-Politics-Psychology-Children/dp/0190465573

“The failure to convict anyone in the McMartin case and a widely publicized appellate decision in New Jersey that freed an accused molester had turned the dominant narrative on its head. In the early 1990s, a new narrative with remarkable staying power emerged: the child sex abuse cases were symptomatic of a “moral panic” that had produced a witch hunt. A central claim in this new witch hunt narrative was that the children who testified were not reliable and easily swayed by prosecutorial suggestion. In time, the notion that child sex abuse was a product of sensationalized over-reporting and far less endemic than originally thought became the new common sense.”

There’s a neat chart here that shows when cases began to ramp up - through the 80s:
http://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/child-welfare-child-protection-and-sexual-abuse-1918-1990

"Sexual abuse was an even more sensitive issue, and was also treated with disbelief or resistance. Feminist consciousness raising groups had begun to give adults the opportunity to tell of childhood sexual abuse. Feminist campaigners presented child abuse as a subset of wider patterns of male violence towards women and children; Incest Survivors’ groups and Rape Crisis shelters demanded more sensitive treatment and aftercare for survivors of abuse. A British Medical Journal article charted the sharp rise of referrals for child sexual abuse in 1980s Leeds [Fig. 1], but still acknowledged that different welfare services had ‘inconsistent response[s] to sexual abuse, as few agencies have uniform procedures of management and coordination between agencies is poor.’

While this seems like an academic exercise (and I am a nerd, please forgive me on that account - this whole thing started for me as a way of trying to understand why people dig in and defend the accused), it’s interesting because it shows how recently it has been that we actually have taken any of this seriously. And it’s absolutely wonderful that victims now have a way of reporting, that we can now penalize abusers, and that our society is FINALLY taking it seriously. It was definitely not always so.

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This should be read by everyone…20 times. To the Katie Prudents who are saying “I rode with him everyday and never saw this, it didn’t happen” - you’re missing the point. This isn’t done in front of a crowd or in the washrack for heaven’s sake. It’s careful and concealed and incredibly specific and intentional.

@IdahoRider Thank you for this post and for your bravery, and I’m so sorry you went through what you did.

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And I am telling you one more time, that is false. Perhaps you do not understand the word “accept”. Here is the appropriate section from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:
"3a : to endure without protest or reaction
b : to regard as proper, normal, or inevitable
c : to recognize as true : believe "

Perhaps 3a might apply if there were no protests or reactions. But there were reactions - teachers pulled, students pulled, complaints, prosecutions. At no time in my lifetime has society accepted teachers raping students without reactions. Geez.

I have no idea why you need to believe what you keep claiming. However, I simply cannot let this nonsense be perpetuated.

I also understand that you are not supporting GM or any of the other perps mentioned in this thread. We definitely can agree on that. :slight_smile:

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Of course the anti-Safe Sport people only want court proceedings, since they know most of them are past the statute of limitations in many of the states.

I read a few minutes ago that New York has 45 judges for the flood of cases they’re expecting.

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Virginia HM Wrote:

“If he has managed to avoid HIV for so long, he should give his blood to science so they can find out why.”

I’ve wondered that for a long time. The odds against getting HIV with such exposure are so low.

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You are absolutely wrong. If not doing something to stop someone is not accepted, I don’t know what is.

When I was a teenager, there was a very well thought of horseman–ex cavalry, avid huntsman and whip–who had a day job and trained on the side. His place was a mecca for horsey kids. He had a pool table in his tackroom, lots of beverages and snacks, and a phonograph and tv also. He also had a predilection for teenaged girls under 18. Back then the age of consent for girls in that state was, IIRC, 14 or 15. He wasn’t interested in girls younger than that.

Thing was that most, if not all, of the horsey parents knew about his proclivities and their only action seemed to be to warn their girls of that age never to be alone with him. They never told kids not to go to his place, and they certainly never took any action with law enforcement. If that’s not “accepted”, I don’t know what is.

To make this not just rumor, I was at a horse show with another barn a hundred miles away from his home. He was there. It was night. He followed me into an empty horse trailer and, now I guess we’d say, assaulted me. But because I had been warned against him, I was able to protect myself, and I was old enough to do it. And, quite frankly, because I had been warned, I don’t think that I was much affected by what he did. I also “accepted” it. I just treated it as any other unpleasant event with a male of my own age.

I also think that you have a very broad definition of rape. The current president of France first took up with his current and only wife when he was a teenager and she was his teacher. Apparently that was also “accepted”.

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I think you are bringing up some good points, but I’m going to twist what you said just a little bit.

I don’t think it was culturally accepted so much as what some other posters pointed out, more of a sense that women and children, especially young women, were property of (white) men. And yes, I think it’s worth noting the difference in what a white dude could do, only to whispers and ‘boys will be boys’ versus what a man of color or a poor, low status man could do. Try that on for a moment and think about how these rules and laws were disproportionately used. And still are. It’s not comfortable.

Until the late 1970s, a woman needed her husband’s permission to get a credit card. (A man, of course, did not need his wife’s permission.)

Women and children simply weren’t full fledged people. And the shame and stigma of being a public victim made it super hard to fight that in all kinds of ways, even in standing up for victims and against abusers.

Elite athletes too, especially young ones, end up becoming the property of their sport and their federation if they want to continue to play at the top. No one wants to be associated with scandal, especially when endorsements are key to their livelihood.

SafeSport as a concept is exactly what we need - a third party who is not invested in our sport who can objectively look at the evidence and say, “this isn’t okay.” When you look at the other sports, and hear the stories about people who aren’t our friends, and aren’t our heroes, you see why they need it too.

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When otherwise somewhat intelligent people defend clearly illogical positions, it’s likely not because their position is logical. It’s more likely that it’s profitable.

Remember the outcry over capping the number of classes for Big Eq riders a few years ago? For the uninitiated, in the Maclay and other big eq divisions, it’s the rider that qualifies for finals, not the horse. Why then do top riders continue to compete on different horses after they have qualified? Often they are showing a horse for sale on one of their working students and this is how the big name trainer makes his or her money. When USHJA proposed capping the number of classes a big eq rider could ride, there was a huge outcry from trainers and working students. Mary Babick, president of USHJA defended the cap through this statement: “What you do see is patterns of trainers utilizing the system,” said Babick. “I’m sorry to put it this way, but basically what they do is prostitute their riders to make money for themselves. They’re using the equitation system as a cash machine” to sell horses.

The resistance to any kind of regulation of the sport is based not just in defense of GM (who basically institutionalized the big eq economy as we know it today). It’s made in defense of a system of unregulated child labor through which the trainer schools and sells horses. A spectrum of abuse of children may be facilitated by that system. The whole system needs to be regulated. It never has been. Of course, trainers and others benefiting are going to resist until the cows come home.

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I by no means meant that there weren’t predators and facilitators back then. Of course there were! Nor did I mean that everyone in society who knew about predators and victims did something about it. Of course they didn’t! But societally, sexual predation by teachers of underaged students was not “accepted”. Which is what was being claimed. That somehow the Greatest Generation “accepted” their children being raped and looked the other way while it happened.

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3a and 3c both applied in many many situations. Not post reporting, but prior to the reporting of misdeed.

Why I believe what I believe? The data supports it. The studies, cited above, support it.

Why I’m still arguing it despite your protestations to the contrary? Because it’s the lack of reporting that hurt so many people and THAT was what was culturally accepted, therefore, the acts were tacitly culturally approved of. That may SUCK to hear if you were of age during that period, but it’s the truth. There were many people who did not see those things as abuse - even though it met the legal definition, particularly where early-mid teens are concerned.

Heck, there are many people NOW who echo the same terminology (“witch hunt” sound familiar?) in their disbelief of victims of powerful people. That’s CULTURE talking.

That teachers were prosecuted afterward has nothing to do with cultural acceptance. And of course, afterward, there were whispers and snickers, and a good many defenders.

I also want victims to understand that people didn’t report or help them not because they (the victims) were not worth rescuing, but that times were different and there were those that didn’t understand. It goes a long way toward healing the anger and reducing the shame that a victim feels. I know I felt for a very long time that I was somehow not worth people fighting for, and it helped me to realize that they were acculturated into believing what had happened to me was my fault - that it didn’t really mean that they didn’t care. They didn’t know how to.

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