George Morris on the SS list

[ybiaw]

@Palm Beach

I have to disagree. What he founded was the American style, and we are hardly dominating the world in show jumping, eventing, or dressage. We may think it is the best or most effective way of riding, but at the top levels, it did not bring us a competitive edge to where we are always the country to beat. It’s been around long enough that if his style was truly better than any other style, we’d be dominating at the top levels.

I think (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve been off the forums for a while so the nuances and personalities are a bit rusty to me) that Laurie is making the point that it’s ok to separate the impact he has had on the sport and the education of American riders from the heinous acts of abuse. It’s ok to be shocked and sad about the allegations against someone you once respected as a horseman that resulted in his ban from the governing body and sport, but still to appreciate the education you received from that person.

[hut-ho78]

@Palm Beach

I have to disagree. What he founded was the American style, and we are hardly dominating the world in show jumping, eventing, or dressage. We may think it is the best or most effective way of riding, but at the top levels, it did not bring us a competitive edge to where we are always the country to beat. It’s been around long enough that if his style was truly better than any other style, we’d be dominating at the top levels.

He did not found it. I think the forward Seat was started by an Italian. The Americans did dominate at first because the military picked it up and taught it to the civilians. George was taught the seat by a woman instructor. He continued teaching.

[hut-ho78]

@hut-ho78

He did not found it. I think the forward Seat was started by an Italian. The Americans did dominate at first because the military picked it up and taught it to the civilians. George was taught the seat by a woman instructor. He continued teaching.

Francesco Capprilli.
http://equestriancoachblog.com/the-american-hunterjumper-forward-riding-system/

[Texarkana]

@Palm Beach

I have to disagree. What he founded was the American style, and we are hardly dominating the world in show jumping, eventing, or dressage. We may think it is the best or most effective way of riding, but at the top levels, it did not bring us a competitive edge to where we are always the country to beat. It’s been around long enough that if his style was truly better than any other style, we’d be dominating at the top levels.

Er… some suggested reading for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Caprilli

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Littauer

ETA: Hut-ho beat me to it.

[LexInVA]

@endlessclimb

Yet people are contacting the barns of others inquiring about sponsorship status and IEA stuff.

Informing someone of something factual is not grounds for a lawsuit, lying about her would be. I just found it interesting that the school district owns a massive high dollar farm, and the trainer has the gall to support a child molester in the face of it.

I do think that people who are willing to put their name and livelihood on the line over a child molester should have some consequences. Maybe I’m wrong for that.

Perhaps Serah, who is a poster on this board, can come comment on why she would change her profile picture at such a coincidental time, and how she feels about SafeSport and the GM sanction.

What you’re proposing to do is the equivalent of attacking an individual’s livelihood because they are a Trump supporter. You are simply disagreeing with their beliefs and that’s all it is in the eyes of the legal system. It might feel good to give them a right hook, but that can get you into trouble. The appropriate thing to do would be to simply leave her alone and keep an eye on her to see if she says something really inflammatory and stupid that clearly would get the local government’s attention and make them renege on any business arrangement they have with her, for fear of liability or bad press. If she posts a multi-paragraph rant about how bad the idea of SafeSport is and openly describes kids or alleged victims of sexual abuse in a derogatory way that clearly shows no sympathy or a great degree of malice towards them, by all means, bring it to the attention of the local authorities and parents. Otherwise, leave her alone and simply let the parents that see her posts on Facebook, whose children she is responsible for, see her posted “beliefs” for what they are, so that they can do the work for you and pull their children away from her. If parents complain to the powers that be and it turns out that there have been reports in the past that she herself has been plundering the proverbial cookie jar, things will go farther and faster than an ear whisper from a nobody that can’t hold them liable for something.

As for Tom Navarro, he’s a known factor because of his documented arrest and conviction in NY, so there is no grey area there and no chance of legal blow-back because he is a certified sex offender whose business focuses on providing services for the very same type of person who would be his victim. Anyone could openly argue - be it in a courtroom or a bathroom - that he has no business being in business, with children being the primary clients, BECAUSE of that and that people and businesses shouldn’t be supporting or enabling him in any way. There’s no defense at all for him in a legal battle, especially since he had himself removed from the offender registry in Virginia around the time he took over the farm and attempted to start his business, which clearly means that he doesn’t want potential clients or the community-at-large to know about it. Most one-charge sex offenders like him don’t bother doing that. As for the parents knowing, they might know or they might not, given the timeline of events surrounding his business and removal from the registry. Around here, parents of “activities kids” often don’t give a damn about such things, so long as their child is happy/winning, but the added attention due to the current events might mean people are talking among themselves at shows and learning exactly what’s what, so I’m sure it will sort itself out since people outside of his barns are fully aware of it now.

[hut-ho78]

@ybiaw

I think (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve been off the forums for a while so the nuances and personalities are a bit rusty to me) that Laurie is making the point that it’s ok to separate the impact he has had on the sport and the education of American riders from the heinous acts of abuse. It’s ok to be shocked and sad about the allegations against someone you once respected as a horseman that resulted in his ban from the governing body and sport, but still to appreciate the education you received from that person.

Agree

[endlessclimb]

@LexInVA

What you’re proposing to do is the equivalent of attacking an individual’s livelihood because they are a Trump supporter. You are simply disagreeing with their beliefs and that’s all it is in the eyes of the legal system. It might feel good to give them a right hook, but that can get you into trouble. The appropriate thing to do would be to simply leave her alone and keep an eye on her to see if she says something really inflammatory and stupid that clearly would get the local government’s attention and make them renege on any business arrangement they have with her, for fear of liability or bad press. If she posts a multi-paragraph rant about how bad the idea of SafeSport is and openly describes kids or alleged victims of sexual abuse in a derogatory way that clearly shows no sympathy or a great degree of malice towards them, by all means, bring it to the attention of the local authorities and parents. Otherwise, leave her alone and simply let the parents that see her posts on Facebook, whose children she is responsible for, see her posted “beliefs” for what they are, so that they can do the work for you and pull their children away from her. If parents complain to the powers that be and it turns out that there have been reports in the past that she herself has been plundering the proverbial cookie jar, things will go farther and faster than an ear whisper from a nobody that can’t hold them liable for something.

As for Tom Navarro, he’s a known factor because of his documented arrest and conviction in NY, so there is no grey area there and no chance of legal blow-back because he is a certified sex offender whose business focuses on providing services for the very same type of person who would be his victim. Anyone could openly argue - be it in a courtroom or a bathroom - that he has no business being in business, with children being the primary clients, BECAUSE of that and that people and businesses shouldn’t be supporting or enabling him in any way. There’s no defense at all for him in a legal battle, especially since he had himself removed from the offender registry in Virginia around the time he took over the farm and attempted to start his business, which clearly means that he doesn’t want potential clients or the community-at-large to know about it. Most one-charge sex offenders like him don’t bother doing that. As for the parents knowing, they might know or they might not, given the timeline of events surrounding his business and removal from the registry. Around here, parents of “activities kids” often don’t give a damn about such things, so long as their child is happy/winning, but the added attention due to the current events might mean people are talking among themselves at shows and learning exactly what’s what, so I’m sure it will sort itself out since people outside of his barns are fully aware of it now.

While I totally agree with you, the two colored statements contradict one another. FWIW, I’m not reporting anything to anyone. I stay long and far away from “actual” drama if I can avoid it, which I succeed well in as I board at a small no-name barn, showing up places and quietly doing my thing and leaving.

That said, I am also aware that my mindset of “whoaaa not going there nope nope nope” is how rumors and misdeeds go on and on and on, and when they finally get light shed on them, everyone says “well there were whispers for years!!”

And, in the end, informing the owners of the property, which happens to be the Antioch SCHOOL DISTRICT, who have a larger vested interest in keeping children safe than just your run of the mill “property owner”, that someone they lease to that holds numerous children related events is a child molester apologetic - is not, and could not be under any circumstances, even if they ended the lease, an actionable offense. Nothing about it is a lie, so what would the case even be about? It’s neither libel nor slander. Done in poor taste, maybe. But not illegal.

[Texarkana]

@ybiaw

I think (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve been off the forums for a while so the nuances and personalities are a bit rusty to me) that Laurie is making the point that it’s ok to separate the impact he has had on the sport and the education of American riders from the heinous acts of abuse. It’s ok to be shocked and sad about the allegations against someone you once respected as a horseman that resulted in his ban from the governing body and sport, but still to appreciate the education you received from that person.

As a society, we really don’t have a way for dealing with these instances. We’re all muddling our way through it, and on more levels than just sexual misconduct.

Some suggest the offenders should be erased from history, but that’s just not possible. Like you point out, a person can be furious or disgusted by actions while still appreciating the positive contributions from that same individual.

It’s tough.

[LexInVA]

@Palm Beach

The lessor can always opt to not renew the lease when it is up.

That is working under the assumption that the lessor won’t speak to the lessee when informed of lessee’s open support of a (currently) alleged-and-not-convicted-by-the-legal-system child molester - no real ground to stand on at this time, unfortunately - and driving the lessee to get lawyers involved to see what and who precipitated the termination of the lease, thereby giving the lessee grounds for a legal battle after her lease is terminated. Assumption is the mother of all f***-ups and this would be a textbook backseat accident, as there are likely numerous court cases that cover such a scenario. There’s plenty of ambulance-chaser type lawyers who would happily commit billable hours to a case that could result from the proposed actions and that only makes things worse, not better. If GM gets held legally accountable down the line and is found or pleads guilty in a court of law, there’s some ground to stand on if the lessee still openly proclaims undying love and fealty to him and disparages SafeSport or abuse victims, giving clear proof that it’s not a good idea to be in business with them.

[ybiaw]

@Texarkana

As a society, we really don’t have a way for dealing with these instances. We’re all muddling our way through it, and on more levels than just sexual misconduct.

Some suggest the offenders should be erased from history, but that’s just not possible. Like you point out, a person can be furious or disgusted by actions while still appreciating the positive contributions from that same individual.

It’s tough.

Exactly.

[roseymare]

Well I will say this the GM PR machine is doing it’s job. I was just told by to go to the ISWGM page to see the truth about how someone who is innocent has no “due process” or “proof”. The horsey set is making fools of themselves over this.

[Jumphigh83]

So the position of the majority on this BB is that doxing and intimidation are useful tools? Shocking that the moderators think this is okay too.

[Midge]

@endlessclimb

Another local one. Serah Vogus’ current facebook profile picture is her with GM. Here’s an article about her…

https://www.dailyherald.com/submitte…creek-new-life

Perhaps the Antioch School District, who owns the barn she leases, would like to know of her support of him…

Seriously?? No. Just no.

[dags]

@endlessclimb

And, in the end, informing the owners of the property, which happens to be the Antioch SCHOOL DISTRICT, who have a larger vested interest in keeping children safe than just your run of the mill “property owner”, that someone they lease to that holds numerous children related events is a child molester apologetic - is not, and could not be under any circumstances, even if they ended the lease, an actionable offense. Nothing about it is a lie, so what would the case even be about? It’s neither libel nor slander. Done in poor taste, maybe. But not illegal.

You are playing right into their “anyone can file a claim and ruin your life” hand, please stop.

Posting a photo, in and of itself, is not a declaration of anything & definitely not an actionable offense that warrants pulling her lease.

Just like adjusting a student’s leg position, in and of itself, is not an actionable offense that will get you banned from USEF, which is something I’ve found myself stating over & over again for weeks now.

Let’s keep our focus on the real bad actors, shall we?

[vagabondrider]

@chisamba

Copied this minute from their slide show .

The main video screen in the George H. Morris Arena measures 16 feet x 28 feet and is supported by two 16-foot by 9-foot screens which that present live video, and replays, and sponsor promotions.

Someone upthread said Tryon Stadium is where the dressage & jumping were at WEG. The other arena is still George Morris.

[Texarkana]

@Jumphigh83

So the position of the majority on this BB is that doxing and intimidation are useful tools? Shocking that the moderators think this is okay too.

I find this statement highly ironic on a thread discussing George Morris. :lol:

[Midge]

@Jumphigh83

So the position of the majority on this BB is that doxing and intimidation are useful tools? Shocking that the moderators think this is okay too.

Oh please. There are more people suggesting she is in the wrong than in the right. But you saddle up that drama llama if you think it’s a good match.

You ought to consult a dictionary before you use the word “majority” again. It does not mean what you think it means.

[alicen]

@Palm Beach

We may think it is the best or most effective way of riding, but at the top levels, it did not bring us a competitive edge to where we are always the country to beat. It’s been around long enough that if his style was truly better than any other style, we’d be dominating at the top levels.

Other international riders are just consistently better at it and, to compare, we’d have to also examine training practices.

[hut-ho78]

@Jumphigh83

So the position of the majority on this BB is that doxing and intimidation are useful tools? Shocking that the moderators think this is okay too.

No it is not the opinion of the majority or a significant number just a very very few. I am appalled at that particular rabbit trail. Most people are just trying to correct misrepresentations of SafeSport and are appalled by personal attacks. Read the entire thread. Read the entire thread on RG. You will see a lot of discussion on personal experiences that I hope is cathartic for the individuals, trying to understand how this came about, personal shock and disappointment, trying to come to terms with the situation of respected larger than life icons of the industry caught up in this and how did it go on for so long, how predators hide in plain sight, the frustrating “I heard rumors but…” (seriously? I didn’t but far removed from $$$, showing, etc.), how hard it was to report back in the day and now, and posting and reposting of SafeSport rules and excerpts.

[ladyj79]

@alicen

Other international riders are just consistently better at it and, to compare, we’d have to also examine training practices.

I mean, yes, other riders are better, but not at “it” where it represents American style forward seat riding.

That was fitting for some in an era of big solid fences and hurdling courses, but much much less suitable to today’s sport.