George Morris on the SS list

[poltroon]

Also for those of you new, I recommend reading Ashley Wagner’s account from figure skating. I think she was quite correct to understand that reporting a fellow athlete - not even a larger than life coach - would have ended her ability to skate and win a medal for the US team.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport…in/1876419001/

Note that when SafeSport banned Coughlin, they didn’t know about Wagner’s incident.

And read this one:

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/sto…ormer-olympian

Now imagine if you were a young man or young woman accusing George Morris how your career would dry up.

Not to mention that young men who have been sexually assaulted - especially in the 1970s - didn’t find themselves supported. Instead they tended to get thrown out of their house and shunned.

And the grooming that is done - “This is how you show you are good enough to get to the top” is insidious. The power dynamic takes away any ability to consent, in addition to those athletes that are also minors.

[Tiramit]

A recurring theme within the global GM discussion that stands out in flashing marquee lights is the “we all knew about it” comments. The “whispers” and “open rumors” and “not-so-secret secret” comments.

Let’s let that sink in for a moment. An entire community (and its periphery) gossiped about it. For DECADES. An entire community that did nothing to confirm the rumors and, if they were true, help the victims and prevent future victims.

If Nassar hadn’t been caught and Congress hadn’t created SafeSport, would the riding community still be snickering about GM over beers or exchanging knowing glances across the aisle? Probably.

I’m not going to come out all guns a-blazing against GM at this stage. It’s not from a lack of knowledge about SS or because I don’t believe he could have done it. I’ve read the SS process and understand they’ve determined there’s a reason to investigate the claim. I also understand that he is in the appeal process and that there is a chance the ruling could be overturned.

Since I’m not part of the investigation process and privy to the case’s details, I’ll wait until the final verdict before issuing a personal ruling.

What I do know is that I’ve ridden with the man multiple times. He’s tough, yes. He sometimes makes harsh comments and can bully people who aren’t all-in and trying. He can also issue amazing praise and support. The results of his work have been proven. He’s very good at his job. That hasn’t stopped me with associating him with tough military generals in my mind.

I’d hate for this claim to be true, but there’s a chance it is. Hopefully we’ll be given a clear answer at some point.

[Toblersmom]

@HLMom

In legal theory, there are important reasons that statutes of limitations exist for almost all crimes–and none of them are 50+ years long (with the exception of murder). A main reason is that for an accused to defend himself/herself, s/he needs access to witnesses, documentary evidence, etc. around the time of the crime. When you are getting 50 years out, most of the possible witnesses will have died or will be un-locatable. That is fundamentally unfair to the accused.

I don’t know how old you are, but I’m in my 50’s. Suppose some tribunal accused me of assault and battery 35 years ago by shoving someone during a spat in high school. I’d be in a position of saying, (1) that doesn’t sound like something I’d do; but (2) I don’t remember much about high school; (3) I barely remember any kids from high school and certainly couldn’t find them now to be witnesses for me.

People generally understand the rationale for statutes of limitations when it comes to other crimes, but then when it comes to sexual harassment, they are willing to throw legal safeguards out the window.

All of that said, I don’t know anything about GM’s past conduct, and I am troubled when anyone thinks he has license to bully and belittle other people (I’ve certainly had bosses like that), let alone take advantage of them sexually.

I would be very interested to see if this ends up in a court of law.

I dunno about other states, but Texas has no statute of limitations on sexual assault or offenses against children as fas as I can tell. The state has decided that they are no more interested in providing extraordinary “safeguards” to those accused of these offenses than they are interested in providing such safeguards to murderers.

And rightly so. There are all too many situations, just look at the Catholic Church, where NUMEROUS abuses and attacks that took place years and years and years ago were deliberately and systematically hidden. There are all too many situations where the abused have been either convinced that what was done to them was normal and deserved by grooming behavior, or terrorized that something even worse would happen if they said anything. The kid who kept silent for decades because his step father said he’d kill his mother if he said anything, shouldn’t speak up when the mother dies and is now finally “safe” from that threat? Because the accused deserves the safeguard of statute of limitations? Really???

[EAY]

As a child, I rode with a trainer who had been a student of GM. He had gone to ride with George as a young teen after having lost his own father (I can’t remember whether the father had died or abandoned his family). He was emotionally vulnerable and also happened to be very good looking. I have heard rumors that he was molested by GM during this time. He definitely has gone on to have had a troubled life.

So, no I am not at all surprised by these allegations. For all I know, he might even be the one to have made the SS complaint. As someone mentioned earlier, if the rumors are true, then I imagine it has been difficult for him to watch GM reach the pinnacle of success and respect while his own life has been pretty much a disaster.

[HLMom]

@Toblersmom

I dunno about other states, but Texas has no statute of limitations on sexual assault or offenses against children as fas as I can tell. The state has decided that they are no more interested in providing extraordinary “safeguards” to those accused of these offenses than they are interested in providing such safeguards to murderers.

And rightly so. There are all too many situations, just look at the Catholic Church, where NUMEROUS abuses and attacks that took place years and years and years ago were deliberately and systematically hidden. There are all too many situations where the abused have been either convinced that what was done to them was normal and deserved by grooming behavior, or terrorized that something even worse would happen if they said anything. The kid who kept silent for decades because his step father said he’d kill his mother if he said anything, shouldn’t speak up when the mother dies and is now finally “safe” from that threat? Because the accused deserves the safeguard of statute of limitations? Really???

Here is a link that discusses the various “sols” for child sexual abuse in different states. Texas does have a statute of limitations in many cases.

https://www.rainn.org/state-state-guide-statutes-limitations

I do understand your point – there is a balance to be struck. Many children do not have the power or wherewithal to report an adult who has significant power over their lives. That reality needs to be balanced against fairness to the accused.

I do think that we can have increased confidence in a prosecution or disciplinary action when there is a pattern of conduct–i.e., it wasn’t just one kid, it was a dozen kids. I think in most cases that’s what was going on with the Catholic priests who have been defrocked, and the same may prove true in GM’s case. We’ll see.

[YankeeDuchess]

@farmpony84

Again. I never said that sexual misconduct towards a minor was ok. I never said any of that and I never thought that. Again… You are slathering your BS all over thread while you try to bully me into submission and accuse me of being an idiot. All I can say is. Bless your heart.

@farmpony84 There were two big issues with your post.

1. When SafeSport bans someone, they are very terse, and all they say is: length of suspension, and nature of violation. In this case, lifetime, and sexual misconduct involving minors.
   If the violation did not involve minors, it would have said “sexual misconduct”. Danali was taking you to task for not reading the absolute minimum on the case.
2. I read all your context. Even in context, though, you said that some victims “are not exactly innocent” because they got something out of “participating”. It is not OK to use your position of power and trust to barter sex for coaching or other opportunities even with adults, and doubly not OK with minors.

[vali]

I have heard reports about George Morris and criminal activity against boys for years, I was wondering how he had avoided sanctions for this long. I was not a witness, but have heard reports from someone who was a victim. The Safesport website said it was a criminal violation, but I don’t know if it was referred for criminal prosecution or has already been prosecuted. As an attorney, I agree that not all states have statutes of limitations for cases involving minors, and would also note that the details are not always made public in both both civil and criminal cases. I have no doubt that SafeSport acted correctly here.

[FlaxenChestnut]

@Dressurfrau

I’m not a fan of Robert Dover but here is what he shared on Dover’s World. I guess others in the equestrian community may pick a side as well.

“I’ve known George since I was a kid myself and actually met Robert Ross at Hunterdon in 1988 when Robert was 22. He was there for his second time for a week-long training session and George was kind enough to give him a room to stay in. Robert was and still is very handsome but asked if George was ever inappropriate with him either time he was there, he will tell you NEVER. George will say, like most men his or even my age, the 70’s especially were a crazy time and men and women, gay and straight, did crazy things. It was not called the “sexual revolution” for nothing. But retroactively attempting to judge one’s behavior in today’s world based on those times, what was for instance, going on in Studio 54 or Studio 1, is not only impossible but is unfair.
Now, rape is rape, regardless of the decade in which it happened and anyone found guilty of it should be charged with the crime. But something deemed “sexual abuse” today, brought by an accuser who may themselves be worthy of a stronger look into their behavior and who most likely would have to have been alone when this allegedly took place, put into the context of almost 50 years ago, is setting up a precedent for disaster. I hate that my friend, George, is going through this but it is even bigger than George and so in standing with George, I am standing up for the rights of us all and calling for Safe Sport to be overhauled. We need to protect our youth and all our athletes in sports but with a correct system using the rule of law and jurisprudence.”

Wow, that is one poorly thought out post by Robert Dover.

[Mardi]

@Dressurfrau

I’m not a fan of Robert Dover but here is what he shared on Dover’s World…

. “Robert [Ross] was and still is very handsome but asked if George was ever inappropriate with him either time he was there, he will tell you NEVER.”

Interesting comment by RD on RR’s physical appearance. If RR was female, and her appearance was mentioned, there’d be a tsunami of a backlash. But since RR is male, not so much.

[Denali6298]

@EAY

As a child, I rode with a trainer who had been a student of GM. He had gone to ride with George as a young teen after having lost his own father (I can’t remember whether the father had died or abandoned his family). He was emotionally vulnerable and also happened to be very good looking. I have heard rumors that he was molested by GM during this time. He definitely has gone on to have had a troubled life.

So, no I am not at all surprised by these allegations. For all I know, he might even be the one to have made the SS complaint. As someone mentioned earlier, if the rumors are true, then I imagine it has been difficult for him to watch GM reach the pinnacle of success and respect while his own life has been pretty much a disaster.

Someone actually stated that on Facebook. Who knows if it’s true or not but it was said.

[MyssMyst]

@HLMom

Here is a link that discusses the various “sols” for child sexual abuse in different states. Texas does have a statute of limitations in many cases.

https://www.rainn.org/state-state-guide-statutes-limitations

I do understand your point – there is a balance to be struck. Many children do not have the power or wherewithal to report an adult who has significant power over their lives. That reality needs to be balanced against fairness to the accused.

I do think that we can have increased confidence in a prosecution or disciplinary action when there is a pattern of conduct–i.e., it wasn’t just one kid, it was a dozen kids. I think in most cases that’s what was going on with the Catholic priests who have been defrocked, and the same may prove true in GM’s case. We’ll see.

This.

I HADN’T heard the GM rumors beyond that he was tough on his riders and had a thing against carrying extra weight. To assume we ALL knew is a bit of a stretch.

I do think the post on cognitive dissonance is a very good point.

[Mardi]

@ladyj79

As I said, Robert Dover asks a friend if he was sexually assaulted by George as a young adult (22).

Friend says no.

Ergo, Rob concludes George Morris did not assault adolescent boys.

That’s not what RD said. He was speaking about ONE person whom he knows very well.

[Jealoushe]

OK now seeing RDs post…gross. What a willfully niave man. Every sentance just makes it worse.

[BostonBound]

1. No doubt, George Morris is very knowledgeable and has been very successful. He is brilliant when it comes to classical riding, I enjoyed his books and he knows what he is doing. I do not always consider George to be a good horseman and I especially do not consider George to be a good coach. He is a TERRIBLE coach and leader. As someone who has coached at a very high level for an entirely different sport, George’s reputation for being harsh, cruel, mean, a diva, whatever, is completely inexcusable. A good coach is able to teach their athletes to be great without putting them down and burning them out. Your job as a coach is to instill a love and respect for the sport in your athletes. I have consistently been horrified by the equestrian community and how they have allowed George to exist as an abusive prick, solely because of who he is. The excuses the community makes for him is deplorable. If I had treated my youth athletes (who were the top junior athletes in their sport) this way, I would be out of a job permanently. It is horrendous. George Morris’s behavior shows he has an issue with power dynamics. Someone who has issues with power dynamics is more likely to abuse those less in power whether it be emotionally or sexually. I don’t get why this is so shocking to people.

2. SafeSport is something that most sports use. I used SafeSport. It is NOT that hard to be compliant with SafeSport. I trust SafeSport. I learned a lot from SafeSport. I didn’t Facebook friend request my youth athletes. I didn’t follow them on Instagram. I wasn’t ever alone with them in a hotel room. I didn’t text them without a witness. The equestrian world is incredibly lax in regards to minors interacting with their coaches and it is unprofessional. It is not hard to keep a coach/athlete balanced relationship. I don’t know why the equestrian community has blown up about SafeSport, but all sports manage to comply except the horse community. There is a lack of distance and professionalism and separation of work and private life in the horse world and I think that is where a lot of the pushback is coming from. I had zero issues complying and I traveled extensively with my athletes. I also trust the SafeSport process and do not believe they willy nilly permanently ban people. The innocent until proven guilty approach is bull. If a teacher was accused of inappropriately interacting with a minor, they would be immediately suspended pending investigation. That’s how the world works. Good grief. ETA: as pointed out, the innocent until proven guilty approach is totally irrelevant here. George’s case went under thorough investigation which resulted in a permanent ban. There is no innocent until guilty here. He was found guilty and was banned. He now has the opportunity to appeal his guilty/banned status. An investigation was done and he was found GUILTY.

[specifiedcupcake]

Well and being attractive has next to ZERO to do with whether you are a target for sexual abuse. So you can just chuck Dover’s tale right out. Abusers look for people who are NOT confident, attractive, well liked with good support networks. They look for someone who they can trick into keeping secrets, or with low self esteem who feels they have no one to tell anyway. Their power is in the victims’ silence.

Reading stuff about Nassar, Mainwaring etc… you start to realize where the MAAP policy language comes from with relation to the victims stories about time/place/nature of abuse. (http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/27244072/44-years-41-allegations-how-caught-former-olympian - this one is particularly interesting and disgusting because of the shame element… and the fact Mainwaring actually had phone calls where he apologized to victims, swore he got therapy and stopped abusing people when he HADN’T)

[Denali6298]

@MyssMyst no one thinks everyone knew in the literal sense but enough people heard the rumors that when Safe Sport came out many of us wondered when he would go on the list.

After the lifetime bans are handed out it comes to light that there were many victims. I do not understand why people keep insisting it’s one person. One person may get the ball rolling but ultimately Safe Sport gets statements and proof from multiple victims.

[Mardi]

@Jealoushe

I’m really interested in the fact that the NYT was already looking into GM before this, so obviously, there was smoke billowing already. So curious to know what they triggered their interest.

His book, perhaps ?

[Jealoushe]

@2centsworth

Did you see this?

yikes…and that is from ten years ago!

[greysfordays]

My former hunter trainer had stories of being chased by GM at indoors when he was a very young professional. I thought he was kind of exaggerating but last year I was talking to an assistant trainer who said he had a whole buddy system set up to never be alone at indoors bc that was inevitably when GM would show up and make very uncomfortable passes at him. He’s an adult, but he still obviously feels harassed while doing his job during the most stressful part of the season.

I personally am grateful to GM bc after doing his clinic, I realized I would be much happier in the jumper ring than the hunter ring. I recognize that he talks a lot about putting the horse first and I think that’s great. I think he is right that there is too much emphasis on showing nowadays. I appreciate the gospel of inside leg to outside hand…

BUT I have ZERO doubt that there is an absolute pile of young people who have suffered from GM’s misconduct. And for that, I believe he deserves to be set down. I do not need to know the particulars or specifics. These boards have given me plenty of evidence that SS does not ban people willy nilly. There is a process and it is all handled with great care.

[Tiramit]

Just thought of something… When did Beezie take over the PH Jumping Clinic? Could it have been when this investigation began?