George Morris on the SS list

[Texarkana]

@Tiramit

Also, when you say “a lot of misinformation” in relation to my post, please give an example beyond the above. I gave opinions in the rest.

I should have rephrased it as “a considerable piece of misinformation.”

This idea that “maybe the claims aren’t true” is a HUGE one in the SafeSport debate.

You have clarified your personal opinion that you want to hold judgement until after the appeal process, but a lot of ardent opposers of SafeSport (not referring to you) believe that a SS sanction has no evidence behind it.

There are a large number of equestrians who believe lifetime bans are handed out by SafeSport without an investigation and without any chance for the accused to defend themselves. That is a fallacy that needs to be addressed.

[Midge]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Please folks… read the RG thread, watch “At the Heart of Gold” and check out the Outside the Lines report from ESPN on Conrad Mainwaring. Read about Ashley Wagner’s story. Go back and read the NYT article from last year about Jimmy Williams…

On the SS Honest Conversation page, someone listed all the ways Ashley Wagner was culpable. Going to a party without telling her parents, Underage drinking, not planning on how to get back to her hotel. and how she and the man got their signals crossed and she was so drunk she might not have remembered inviting him to her room. Then later in the thread wonders who was blaming the victim? She got lots of likes for that.

[Room_for_a_Pony]

@vineyridge

Off topic, but I’m reading a book about society in the very South of France in the very early part of the 14th century, and one section discusses homosexuality in the Catholic priesthood. The author makes it sound as if boys in Catholic institutions were groomed and trained to be homosexual from as early as the age of five; this is based on witness testimony records. 800 years ago in that area at least, the Church was not only a haven for homosexuals, but its monasteries and schools were places where young, even very young boys, were not only molested but got training that lasted for their whole lives in that environment.

Eight hundred years ago few people in Europe were literate. There isn’t the original source material available to draw that kind of conclusion. I would be very curious to know where the author was able to dig up witness testimony records that were able to survive the Black Death, literally hundreds of years of wars and conflict, not to mention deteriorating materials from the environment and insects. Whoever wrote the book you are reading has an agenda. And yes, it is off topic.

[MyssMyst]

What page in the Robert Gage thread should I start at? Sorry, trying to catch up here.

[MHM]

FiSK123, thank you for taking the time to post here on the BB and answer questions. It’s always helpful to compare and contrast how the same issues are addressed in different settings.

[Tiramit]

@NoSuchPerson

A lot of people seem to misunderstand the whole “appeal” thing. The appeal is not a part of the initial process. The initial process is the investigation, interviewing witnesses, allowing both sides to present evidence, and an evaluation, by Safe Sport, of all the evidence. Safe Sport then makes a final decision and hands down whatever sanction they decide is warranted. End of story. Verdict reached. Decision made. Answer clearly stated.

Note, I’m not defending GM.

There should be some clarification on the appeals process. First, there is a real process. Everyone involved doesn’t gather in a room and flip a coin to determine the result. There’s no lead official saying, “sorry ol’ boy, but it’s heads which means you’re guilty.”

In an appeals process they can go back and look at the case details which includes the evidence, the testimony, and consider anything the defense brings forward. One could say they investigate the case. If they didn’t look at the evidence, the testimony, and anything new the defense brings forward there’s little point in hiring lawyers and having an appeals process.

If there is an appeal filed, the case is not over. It’s pending appeal, which means there’s still a chance the accused will ultimately be found not guilty.

[chisamba]

@rollingabout

If the evidence shows he’s guilty then he should stay banned. Those who didn’t report it and knew are guilty as well. You’re way too emotional about this. Think logically.

What if he’s innocent?

I trust evidence. I’m a scientist therefore think logically and not emotionally.

So you have actually seen an electron? Or you believe it’s there because scientists did experiment and the math.

Ok so use your logical brain to understand that in investigators did the investigation and the follow up and then handed out the mist severe penalty they could.

And here you are yelling rhe earth is flat .

[Tiramit]

@Texarkana

I should have rephrased it as “a considerable piece of misinformation.”

This idea that “maybe the claims aren’t true” is a HUGE one in the SafeSport debate.

You have clarified your personal opinion that you want to hold judgement until after the appeal process, but a lot of ardent opposers of SafeSport (not referring to you) believe that a SS sanction has no evidence behind it.

There are a large number of equestrians who believe lifetime bans are handed out by SafeSport without an investigation and without any chance for the accused to defend themselves. That is a fallacy that needs to be addressed.

You and I are on the same page regarding SS and its process (based on the RG thread). The difference there was that he ended his life before the appeals process was over. We could debate “the end” because there was one. That’s not the case here. He’s very much alive and fighting, so the case isn’t really over.

[Room_for_a_Pony]

@2centsworth

yes - makes you wonder if Jonathan was being investigated, as he is on the suspension list, and gave up GM… would make sense

I know one of the other names mentioned there. Ran a very small program. Some have told me that someone funnels money toward him…props up the business, so to speak.

[anon6003733]

del

[Brown_Derby]

@rollingabout

Tell that to the Boy Scouts.

The Boy Scouts who spend millions, along with the Catholic Church, lobbying state legislatures to reduce the statute of limitations on sexual abuse of minors, that Boy Scouts?

I feel this thread needs a link to Hooked on Phonics.

[evilc123]

@rollingabout

To me it is. I can see evidence and determine. It’s pretty cut and dry. Either he did it or not. Either the plaintiff is telling the truth or lying.

Just curious…do you think you are entitled access to whatever “evidence” exists? If I were a victim I’d be a lot less likely to come forward if I knew that all the details of something traumatic would be shared for public consumption…especially if the person I was accusing was in significantly higher social standing than I.

[IdahoRider]

@Can'tFindMyWhip

Is SafeSport painting any other sport in as terrible of a light as equestrian sports?

I found this question interesting and did a little data dip into gymnastics and swimming. There are a lot of names listed on the SafeSport website for both those sports. I didn’t count, but it looks like both have more listings than equestrian does.

I was horrified to see the name of a trainer I knew back in the mid-80’s listed under equestrian. I was flabbergasted, to say the least. I did a quick Google search and discovered this guy had a trail of criminal child molestation convictions that had nothing to do with SafeSport.

He was just as well though of as GM, in his little corner of the horse world. He was supportive of riders, and a wonderful horseman. And he was also a serial sexual predator of minors. Being a talented horse person, or even a ground breaking, transformative figure in the horse world, does not mean you can’t also be a predator. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

I would think that SafeSport would have investigated up one wall and down another before banning GM. They had to know that he would come out swinging. And boy, did he swing. In one PR statement they have been able to frame the allegations as fifty years old. And now the internet is dissecting how appropriate it is to act on 50 year old allegations. With one sentence in a PR statement, the debate becomes more about when than about what.

Let that sink in for a minute. For all we know, there might have been multiple allegations from multiple people. Once one person starts telling their story, it often leads to other people and once approached, those other people start telling their story. The only person who is framing it as one allegation from fifty years ago is GM, which is being accepted as fact now by the internet. That is sad.
Sheilah

[anon6923113]

@Midge

On the SS Honest Conversation page, someone listed all the ways Ashley Wagner was culpable. Going to a party without telling her parents, Underage drinking, not planning on how to get back to her hotel. and how she and the man got their signals crossed and she was so drunk she might not have remembered inviting him to her room. Then later in the thread wonders who was blaming the victim? She got lots of likes for that.

Wow. I haven’t found that page yet, and am not part of the “reform Safe Sport” group. Just seeing the comments on the Chronicles article last night, and the posts on the personal page of a few friends is enough to make me weep.

At this point… people need to stop. Stop defending folks and trashing victims when you really DON’T know what the investigations revealed. It’s stunning. Have a thoughtful discussion about concerns over the Safe Sport process, but STOP with the SICK defense of people who have sexually exploited minors… just because you admire their accomplishments in sport and don’t want it to be true. Big names were put on this list because there was a mountain of evidence and testimony that it WAS true. People need to remove their craniums from their rectums.

[Escada]

So Robert Dover and Mary Phelps are coming out in support of George Morris. They are blaming SafeSport.

I think I would be more careful about saying stuff if I was a horse professional. He didn’t get banned on a whim.

[YankeeDuchess]

@NoSuchPerson

Wait. What? That doesn’t even make any sense.

The Boy Scouts has a code of conduct that adult volunteers must abide by. If they don’t, they are removed from the organization, i.e. banned from any direct involvement with the private organization. Exactly like violations of Safe Sport rules can get an equestrian professional banned from any direct involvement with USEF. It’s the same thing.

I think what the poster was reacting to was the statement that s private club can ban “anyone” without legal repercussions. The Boy Scouts tried to ban gays from serving as leaders and even, I think, as Scouts. They lost in court.

[BostonBound]

@Denali6298

Homosexuality is completely separate from pedophilia. Also, you can’t “raise a homosexual.” You are or you aren’t.

Yeah good grief… the other poster’s quote on “grooming and training boys to be homosexual” is grossly inaccurate. Sexuality shouldn’t even be mentioned in this thread as it is entirely irrelevant. You don’t walk around talking about just how straight the men who molest little girls are. Come on.

[Midge]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Wow. I haven’t found that page yet, and am not part of the “reform Safe Sport” group. Just seeing the comments on the Chronicles article last night, and the posts on the personal page of a few friends is enough to make me weep…

If you want to know why, ‘What were you wearing?’ is still asked,that page will tell you all you need to know.

[Bogie]

@rollingabout

Spare me the drama. I’ll decide when I see solid evidence.

But the point is, you may never see the “evidence”. We do not have a right to know the details about a sexual offense. To expose survivors to the backlash of people who either don’t believe them or don’t care is to subject them to repeated and unnecessary trauma. Look at what has happened to Hilary Ridland (just read some of the comments that people made on her personal Facebook page!) or the comment that “Andrew” posted about Anne Kursinski on the Chronical of the Horse Facebook post about GM. I’m surprised that anyone is willing to come forward, especially if the person they are talking about is revered in the industry. Why are so many people are willling to doubt survivors than the people they accused, even thought they have no idea who is lying?

The saddest thing I’ve read in all the reports about sexual abuse is the father of one of the girls who was a victim in the Nassar case. Her father committed suicide when he realized his daughter had been a victim since age 6 and he had not believed her. In fact, since Nassar was a family friend, he had insisted that she apologize to him.

I’m not saying that we should take every accusation as the Gospel, but the excessive attacks on victims is completely unwarranted.

[LaurieB]

@Escada

So Robert Dover and Mary Phelps are coming out in support of George Morris. They are blaming SafeSport.

I think I would be more careful about saying stuff if I was a horse professional. He didn’t get banned on a whim.

It doesn’t surprise me at all that the wagons are beginning to circle.

But with regard to the big names who are lending their support to GM, seriously ewwww.

I don’t know how the ban can truthfully come as a surprise to anyone who’s even peripherally involved in the H/J world. Or who has read GM’s own words in his book.

I hope the ban sticks and that dozens of other people are quaking in their boots right now.