Abusers of people? Or horses?
Well, that is my point. Do they check IDs against the SS banned list for entry to the facility? Or do they rely on other coaches/members to notice a banned member and tell someone? Or what? How do they know and who knows who to remove from the premises? Is this on the facility, or the club/event person who leased the facility or the NGB who sanctioned the event or ?
I’m just curious how enforcement is handled. Shows, even smaller ones, are usually so spread out and people everywhere… how will anyone know if a banned member is on the premises? Especially if you are from a different area and have traveled some distance to the show. Would you know the names and faces of all the banned members? I’m sure I wouldn’t.
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Perhaps they could post wanted-type posters in the show office and/or in the porta potties?
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:winkgrin: Well, with only 20 on the permanent ban list in Equestrian (so far), that might work. But gymnastics has a whopping 189 people on the permanently banned list - 189!!! That would require a 100 foot long wall to display… so how do they keep those 189 people out of all USAG sanctioned events?
I’ve been through the 208 page USEF General Rules - the only thing I could find about enforcement of keeping banned people out, is that the show management and/or organization holding the show face sanctions themselves (up to and including expulsion) if they don’t comply with keeping the banned people from participating in any way.
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When I was show secretary (back in the 90s) I once got a phone inquiry for entry . The name was unfamiliar and he said he was new in the area. I sent him the entry forms and took a look at the USEF list. There was someone with that name listed on the bans and I sent an inquiry as to their current horse names and numbers. It was not so common a name and it struck me a big “coincidence”
Ultimately the person never entered the show.
Yes shows are responsible for keeping people on the list, either USEF or SS out of the shows. I personally wonder if some of these issues might tighten up the office policy and make stricter requirements for entries, member card proofs and documentations.
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When you make an entry at an A/AA show, the show secretaries computer immediately picks that kind of thing up. It let’s them know if all of your membership credentials are in order, whether or not you completed SS, whether you own the horse or if its leased, etc. All parties involved have to be members. Not that hard
Around my part of the country, we tend to know each other very well. We also tend to be well acquainted with people from other zones. A stranger jumps out at us. We also know who is banned, etc.
USEF banned individuals have been allowed to be on the property when shows aren’t running, hence Paul’s appearance on off-days. Paul also bought property adjacent to the show ground in Florida so his riders could simply hack over to school.
Safe Sport does seem to be attempting to close that loophole for SS banned individuals with the abetting provisions. Which will be impossible to enforce but I still think a good idea since the goal is to keep banned individuals away from their ready victim pool.
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Edited. Sorry! Didn’t mean to be misleading. One of them allegedly killed a horse for insurance money according to a link posted on another thread, hence my clean house statement. The future of our sport should not include abuse of any kind - towards animals or humans.
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This. If people actually “see something and say something” we wouldn’t have to have a third party come rooting around looking for evidence. But apparently there is a price on ethics in a very literal sense. So subpoena or not, witness or not - and apparently even some feel that SS is not secretive ENOUGH to protect them for giving information, despite half the choir crying for transparency.
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During the race riots in DC in the 1960’s, I was at WIHS (then at the Armory) and National Guardsmen armed with rifles appeared at all the doors, with no explanation. It was very unsettling, especially in those days.
This is my point. You have 6 students who enter a show , the trainer isn’t riding in the show. Unless some sees the individual at the show and knows they are banned, they will go unnoticed. The vast majority of lower level trainers/riders have no idea whose all on the list. Very few, sans a couple of high profile, are going to be on the radar.
USEF banned individuals have been allowed to be on the property when shows aren’t running, hence Paul’s appearance on off-days. Paul also bought property adjacent to the show ground in Florida so his riders could simply hack over to school. ( end quote)
USEF has no jurisdiction on non-show days or off the property of the venue itself. Banned people ARE allowed on properties on off days. A USEF show has a start and a stop day after that they have zero power.
I think the hole of bad behavior off / outside of shows has been filled , a bit, by Rate My Horse Pro
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They probably didn’t need to have a system in place since the grand total of NGB banned trainers was like… countable on one hand. I’m sure they’ll come up with something - after all the only way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time.
I wonder how they’d stop someone of maybe not quite GHM celebrity status, but well liked and also banned, from showing up as a “spectator.” There’s not really a checkpoint if you’re not entering as a rider/owner/trainer. Again, you’d rely on people knowing the person, and also then saying something. Which the general population seems reluctant to grass on one of their own.
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Rate My Horse Pro died many years ago. One could argue it never really took off. They rebranded themselves as Horse Authority, but the function to review pros has been inactive for years. They keep teasing that it’s coming back, but it hasn’t happened yet. Now they mainly share equine legal information and provide affordable background checks, which is still a valuable tool.
They are also very quick to appear on COTH whenever you whisper their name, so expecting a response to this shortly. :lol:
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I know, that’s why I said that. these aren’t usef owned properties, ergo they have no control over the grounds when shows aren’t in session. Was my comment confusing?
That has been the case for years now, and works well for anyone at a show who will leave a paper trail by being listed on an entry form as an owner/rider/trainer/coach.
The gap is in the people who won’t appear on any form, like spectators, or people who are there in any capacity without paperwork.
There have been suspended/banned individuals for assorted reasons for decades, long before safe sport. So preventing those people from appearing at USEF shows is not a new problem.
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That was the eyeroll about Barney saying he just wanted to watch his kid ride. If he had just wanted to watch his kid ride, he would have walked in with the spectators, sat in the stands and kept a low profile. But going to the schooling area and making his presence felt was the issue.
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Agreed. But as I said earlier in this thread, I have my questions about whether or not the paper (or digital) trail is even as effective as some claim it to be.
I know a handful of celebrities who have used aliases to show at rated shows. Plenty of horses are are owned by syndicates or LLCs. I don’t think USEF has much in place for stopping a banned individual from creating an alias or LLC to hide their true identity, if a banned individual was truly committed to risking their neck to continue participating in USEF events. The aiding & abetting verbiage attempts to address this, but I don’t think any of us have actually seen it in action yet.
Some (all?) FEI shows require credentials for anyone entering barn areas. I’ve never really seen that at regular USEF A/AA shows I’ve attended. That may be a (costly) method to prevent banned individuals from gaining access. But that still doesn’t address the spectator factor.
Bottom line: I don’t think it’s difficult for banned individuals to continue being affiliated with the show scene, despite SafeSport’s efforts.
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So what is happening with the George Morris clinics from this weekend in SC and the one scheduled at Persimmon Tree Farm this upcoming weekend?
Both clinics are still listed on GM web site (all the remaining 2019 clinics are all still there). Both facilities web sites are showing the clinics this weekend and next weekend on their schedules. Doesn’t appear they have been cancelled looking at their web sites.
Which begs the question - is “subject to appeal” or “in appeal process” a get out of jail free card meaning business as usual until the final decision is made? Or are those clinics just flying in the face of the SS/USEF authority? Of course, those facilities (SC Equine Park and Persimmon Tree Farm) aren’t owned by USEF and I’m not sure what (if anything) their affiliation with USEF is.
