George Morris on the SS list

[LSMarnell]

@Keep it Simple

Look at it this way, if your stockbroker, doctor or lawyer is banned from their respective profession, you cannot use their professional services.

Name checks out :winkgrin:

Perfect.

[2tempe]

@mroades - you are also a refreshing breath of reason in a sea of people who couldn’t separate his skill vs his personal “issues”.

[Room_for_a_Pony]

Sarah Maslin Nir, who wrote the New York Times story, posted the following on Facebook:

"After we broke this news last night I spoke to one of the victims, how does this feel? Does it give you closure? I asked.

In a sense, yes, he said. Then he went on.

‘But I’ll still never know what it’s like to have lived an unmolested life.’"

What it is like to have lived an unmolested life. For everyone who says to let it go because it was years ago, just contemplate that for a bit.

[Angela_Freda]

@mroades

Understand that i refused to stand with George. I do however treasure every single thing I learned from him over the last 40 years. But having just taken the safe sport refresher course, all they had to do was watch a few hundred videos of his clinics and he would have been done, without any sexual assault accusations.

Meaning, just the demeaning comments, or… would have been enough?
I know reading a thread from years ago about George-isms that detailed first hand and not, accounts of things he’d said and done at lessons and clinics. They were horrifying.

[smoofox]

@Angela Freda

Meaning, just the demeaning comments, or… would have been enough?
I know reading a thread from years ago about George-isms that detailed first hand and not, accounts of things he’d said and done at lessons and clinics. They were horrifying.

At his most recent clinic near here, one of the riders asked him politely to clarify what the next exercise/line was. Dear George completely lost his sh*t, berated her for being stupid and not listening, told the crowd that he could not waste his precious time on morons like that and told her to get the hell out of the ring. She was stunned and upset - and rightly so.

We were sitting on our horses across the fence line from the clinic property, watching for a few minutes on our way back from a trail ride - and saw and heard this happen. The rider did NOT deserve that over the top HOW DARE YOU reaction - his instructions were not very clear and we were sitting there going…ummm, what? Some ISWG-type sycophants in the crowd actually applauded his childish outburst.

The annual assault on our ears will apparently end now… he could get his wisdom across without the need to bully, sneer and insult… but I think he relished being nasty.

[mroades]

@Room for a Pony

Sarah Maslin Nir, who wrote the New York Times story, posted the following on Facebook:

"After we broke this news last night I spoke to one of the victims, how does this feel? Does it give you closure? I asked.

In a sense, yes, he said. Then he went on.

‘But I’ll still never know what it’s like to have lived an unmolested life.’"

What it is like to have lived an unmolested life. For everyone who says to let it go because it was years ago, just contemplate that for a bit.

THIS!!!

[Robbie]

George Morris is not the only game in town. How the mighty have fallen. His pedestal has shattered. There are many many instructors who are every bit as good as George. He’s 81. He needs to fade away. And he shall.

[ivy62]

It is sad all around. The facts are what they are and he deserves his punishment. Watching icons fall especially when it is for a reason like this. Look at Joe Paterno… Penn State would not be what they are without him. Bella Karoli changed women’s gymnastics but also went too far. In the era we are talking about a lot of coaches at all levels we’re harsh, including professional sports. ie: Vince Lombardi… But sexual abuse is a zero tolerance scenario.
using power to sexually assault or control someone is awful…
I wonder if he will just fade away?

[Biscotti]

@smoofox

At his most recent clinic near here, one of the riders asked him politely to clarify what the next exercise/line was. Dear George completely lost his sh*t, berated her for being stupid and not listening, told the crowd that he could not waste his precious time on morons like that and told her to get the hell out of the ring. She was stunned and upset - and rightly so.

We were sitting on our horses across the fence line from the clinic property, watching for a few minutes on our way back from a trail ride - and saw and heard this happen. The rider did NOT deserve that over the top HOW DARE YOU reaction - his instructions were not very clear and we were sitting there going…ummm, what? Some ISWG-type sycophants in the crowd actually applauded his childish outburst.

The annual assault on our ears will apparently end now… he could get his wisdom across without the need to bully, sneer and insult… but I think he relished being nasty.

Agreed. He’s always been an absolutely miserable old pig who perpetuated the idea of this being a sport where trainers are allowed to berate their clients. And anyone who credits what he’s done for the sport has clearly never been to a show in Europe - cheaper, more fun, better for the young horses, etc. The GM worship is, IMO, rooted in a lot of older riders who miss the “glory days.”

[fair_judy]

@Biscotti

Agreed. He’s always been an absolutely miserable old pig who perpetuated the idea of this being a sport where trainers are allowed to berate their clients. And anyone who credits what he’s done for the sport has clearly never been to a show in Europe - cheaper, more fun, better for the young horses, etc. The GM worship is, IMO, rooted in a lot of older riders who miss the “glory days.”

Your comment is more than a bit ageist. We ALL stand on the shoulders of those before us. Morris isn’t in this situation because of his “ miserable old pig”’status. Let’s remember that.

[Biscotti]

@fair judy

Your comment is more than a bit ageist. We ALL stand on the shoulders of those before us. Morris isn’t in this situation because of his “ miserable old pig”’status. Let’s remember that.

He is in this situation because he’s a miserable pig, though. He’s a predator who, at best, verbally abused children throughout his entire career and, at worst, raped them. No one person singlehandedly transforms a sport, and IMO he hasn’t had much influence in the past 10-15 years. The folks I see exalting him are people who came up when he had a much more active impact on the sport, so I’d say mostly riders who are 50+. Ageist assumes that I’m saying all riders 50+ worship a monster, which isn’t the case. It’s just that a lot of the monster worshippers are 50+.

[dannyboy]

@Biscotti Um. Good trainers were never allowed to berate their clients. That’s exactly why I would never ride in a clinic with George. I admired his technical skill, and still do, but I would never put up with his obnoxious behaviour.
.
I trained in the 1960’s and '70s with a number of ex-cavalry officers from pre-WWII Europe - many were former Olympians too - who were demanding, exacting, precise, no nonsense, whatever, but would have never lowered themselves to scream or make demeaning comments to their students. We weren’t pals. They didn’t give hugs, but they were officers and gentlemen who took their status seriously. I’ve ridden with civilian trainers who were also tough and demanding, then and more recently, who also managed to get their point across without insulting their students.

[wannabedvm]

@smoofox

BINGO.

Some of those Facebook comments are nauseating. I am glad that I will not hear dearest George insulting young riders at the top of his lungs at his yearly clinic at the farm next door…

And you know what? I can tell you the exact date and details of a time I was assaulted (Dec. 6, 1976 - it was a Monday - around 6 pm) even if I cannot remember WTH I was doing on July 13, 1985. How effing dismissive of that person to think that a traumatic event is NOT remembered… how effing condescending and rude…

I think the point of that statement was not what you interpreted it as. They were talking about the accused not being able to remember the day in question. Statutes of limitations are meant to protect the accused. For victims, like you said, they will often remember details/dates of traumatic events in great detail. For those who are accused, if they are innocent, they likely won’t remember the day because nothing notable happened. Thus, they are unable to provide any alibi or any evidence that might support their defense, which is hugely problematic.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

@Biscotti

. . .
Ageist assumes that I’m saying all riders 50+ worship a monster, which isn’t the case. It’s just that a lot of the monster worshippers are 50+.

huh? What facts or statistics or metrics do you have that its the over 50 crowd that still worship GM? I’m in that age group, and I most certainly do not worship him, now or in the past.

[Biscotti]

@dannyboy

@Biscotti Um. Good trainers were never allowed to berate their clients. That’s exactly why I would never ride in a clinic with George. I admired his technical skill, and still do, but I would never put up with his obnoxious behaviour.

I’m glad that you and I know better! But lots don’t and I still see folks being treated like absolute garbage by unhinged professionals at shows. Lots of people even enjoyed watching GM’s clinics bc of his “tough love” ie abusive behavior.

@4LeafCloverFarm

huh? What facts or statistics or metrics do you have that its the over 50 crowd that still worship GM? I’m in that age group, and I most certainly do not worship him, now or in the past.

Please re-read what you quoted. Most GM supports I’ve encountered are in that age group. NOT that most in that age group are GM supporters. have been upfront about that being my perception and experience.

[skydy]

@dannyboy

@Biscotti Um. Good trainers were never allowed to berate their clients. That’s exactly why I would never ride in a clinic with George. I admired his technical skill, and still do, but I would never put up with his obnoxious behaviour.
.
I trained in the 1960’s and '70s with a number of ex-cavalry officers from pre-WWII Europe - many were former Olympians too - who were demanding, exacting, precise, no nonsense, whatever, but would have never lowered themselves to scream or make demeaning comments to their students. We weren’t pals. They didn’t give hugs, but they were officers and gentlemen who took their status seriously. I’ve ridden with civilian trainers who were also tough and demanding, then and more recently, who also managed to get their point across without insulting their students.

That was my experience as well, though my teachers were not ex-cavalry. I had “tough” riding instructors. Mine were female. They only barked at me when I was endangering their horse, not running up the stirrups when dismounted etc…

They were tough, but fair. There is nothing wrong with being an exacting instructor. The horse is an animal that depends upon the person who is handling it. It is a serious responsibility and that fact needs to be instilled in the student.

This can be done without verbal abuse or ridicule, and of course any sexual involvement is beyond the pale. I obeyed my instructors without question, they were excellent horse people and I was, apparently, very lucky that they were decent human beings who didn’t abuse their students, verbally or sexually.

“But I’ll still never know what it is to have lived an unmolested life” is a sentence that breaks my heart. How anyone can excuse the behavior of George Morris is beyond me.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

@wannabedvm

I think the point of that statement was not what you interpreted it as. They were talking about the accused not being able to remember the day in question. Statutes of limitations are meant to protect the accused. For victims, like you said, they will often remember details/dates of traumatic events in great detail. For those who are accused, if they are innocent, they likely won’t remember the day because nothing notable happened. Thus, they are unable to provide any alibi or any evidence that might support their defense, which is hugely problematic.

My sense is this is less of a concern with the GM situation, because it seems like the accusations against him involved ongoing courses of conduct–i.e., long-term sexual activities with minors in his employ or under his tutelage. I’m not even sure he denies that the relationships took place. (Of course, this highlights one of the differences between Safesport and civil court: because the Safesport process takes place in secret, we have no way to know what the evidence was against GM, what his defense was, what the arbitrator based his/her decision on, whether the lifting of Soresi’s sanction had anything to do with the GM proceeding, etc. It is a total black box.)

However, in general (not specific to GM), your point is exactly right. When we are talking events that occurred 50 years ago, many witnesses to such events would be dead by now. Potentially a serious problem when it comes to the search for the truth.

I do wonder if there will be any further developments: (1) if anything prevents GM from bringing a legal action against Safesport or USEF (like did he sign an arbitration agreement that would continue to be binding forever), (2) whether he will do so or will just fade quietly into retirement, and (3) if there were a lawsuit, what information would become public.

[Bobby7]

@mroades

Understand that i refused to stand with George. I do however treasure every single thing I learned from him over the last 40 years. But having just taken the safe sport refresher course, all they had to do was watch a few hundred videos of his clinics and he would have been done, without any sexual assault accusations.

What? Are you just realizing this? I recall you were going to have him endorse you for Teaching the George Morris system in clinics.

[wannabedvm]

@Horsegirl's Mom

My sense is this is less of a concern with the GM situation, because it seems like the accusations against him involved ongoing courses of conduct–i.e., long-term sexual relationships with minors in his employ or under his tutelage. I’m not even sure he denies that the relationships took place. (Of course, this highlights one of the differences between Safesport and a legal tribunal: because the Safesport process takes place in secret, we have no way to know what the evidence was against GM, what his defense was, what the arbitrator based his/her decision on, whether the lifting of Soresi’s sanction had anything to do with the GM proceeding, etc. It is a total black box.)

However, in general (not specific to GM), your point is exactly right. When we are talking events that occurred 50 years ago, many witnesses to such events would be dead by now. Potentially a serious problem when it comes to the search for the truth.

I do wonder if there will be any further developments: (1) if anything prevents GM from bringing a legal action against Safesport or USEF (like did he sign an arbitration agreement that would continue to be binding forever), (2) whether he will do so or will just fade quietly into retirement, and (3) if there were a lawsuit, what information would become public.

I would have to assume he didn’t sign any sort of binding arbitration regarding bringing future suits. The legal system will never be able to change the result of whatever arbitration/settlement/decision was reached via SafeSport (I.e., they won’t be able to make USEF unban him), so that is presumably binding. But I’d think asking someone in his position to sign away any right they might have to pursue actual legal recourse would be hugely problematic and contrary to public policy. Especially because the victims can still choose to pursue legal action (they can’t sign away their right to participate in criminal actions). Further, how would they get him to sign such an agreement? I sure wouldn’t advise anyone to do that, and they can’t force him, because what possible benefit could they offer him, and how could they possibly make things worse for him if he didn’t sign it?

I honestly would love it if someone would bring a legal action spawning from something related to a SafeSport investigation. I want more information about the actual inner workings/mechanisms of investigations and decisions to become public.

[Jenerationx]

@skydy

“But I’ll still never know what it is to have lived an unmolested life” is a sentence that breaks my heart. How anyone can excuse the behavior of George Morris is beyond me.

That is the sad reality of abuse, rape, and molestation. No matter what happens to the perpetrator, the survivor may get through it, but there’s no such thing as getting over it. It doesn’t matter how many decades pass, it’s still there. It still happened. It still shapes the life that comes after it in some way.