George Morris on the SS list

[charlieTBD]

@mvp

Yes, but I think charlieTBD said just that about Europeans not being slavishly cultish about their top pros.

But to imply, then, that “Europeans, too, would look the other way” about the serious breech of morality we are discussing in this thread is pretty bad. It’s not like Morris stole some pens from work or even did some clever and successful embezzling. To my mind, this is a much worse (and longer-lived) transgression to “look the other way” from.

But maybe charlieTBD can clarify-- Do you Eurotypes have your Harvey Weinsteins, Jo Paternos and George Morrises? Those bad actors who are known but somehow tolerated and allowed to stay in their respective, comfortable positions?

I’m sure they do, although I’m not up on my rumors and scandals. But there is no way single person can shut someome out of the whole industry there, nor do most people put coaches on such a pedastal especially a coach who most of his career taught just juniors at the national level. So there is not much or any incentive to cover up in such a large way. So many people knew this! And clients knew! I cannot imagine staying silent for such a thing.

People might say bad things about your riding or your horse, especially behind your back!, at home but no one will come out and say that you simply are not the right kind of person or not willing to spend enough money so not to deserve to be there like in the US hunter people. You see it all the time on this board. Its really ugly and it’s clearly harmed the sport over the past 30 or 40 years. No one wants to be in a snooty sport full of mean people or be shouted at for riding their own horse alone and having fun. And it seems this man encouraged that spirit. So many amatuer women defend him but it seems to me its because he sold the sport as this upscale exclusive thing and people like feeling like part of that. Even if they dont ride well they feel special.

I hope airing all this out helps the sport recover the happy spirit to include people it should have. And encourages a change in the way people idolize coaches in jumping sports.

[oneequestrienne]

@fair judy

I can state that many of the members of that group would have concerns regarding being themselves subject to investigations.

Bingo. And most of us know who they are…

[fair_judy]

@Virginia Horse Mom

In the interest of fairness and accuracy, I did a quick internet search with respect to Soresi’s conviction, and came across a report from a Syracuse news site dating back to August 2007 that gave the following detail…

[I]“Horse trainer and equestrian show circuit judge Jonathan Soresi was sentenced today to 10 years’ probation for possessing child pornography on his computer when he was in town for a horse show last year.

Soresi, 50, of New Jersey, pleaded guilty in April to a felony count of possession of an obscene sexual performance by a child, admitting he had 16 digital images and one digital movie depicting sexual activity by children on his computer.”[/I]

Given previous discussions on these threads related to an entirely DIFFERENT individual who was convicted in the state of NY for a crime that placed them on a sex offender registry, it is my understanding that sometimes individuals do come off that registry after a specific official duration as part of their original plea deal, depending on the facts of their original case. The other banned individual came off the registry after 10 years… and his crime involved an actual sex act with a minor - he plead guilty. I might be wrong, but my assumption is that penalties for an actual sex act with a minor would be MORE severe than penalties related to possession of child porn.

Interestingly enough however, that individual is STILL on the Safe Spirt banned list, even though he is no longer listed in the sex offender registry. So it does not seem like this situation is simply a matter of an individual’s sex offender registry status (nor should it be).

I will say that none of us actually know what precisely was involved in Soresi’s case, nor do we know how that related to the GM case. Bonnie Navin has made a public comment on FB that implies Soresi got some sort of a “deal” from Safe Sport for providing testimony against GM. There doesn’t seem to be much else in the way of public information related to this matter, one way or another, though. So I take her comments with a HEAPING teaspoon of salt.

Personally… I wouldn’t hire Soresi to coach my kids, given his conviction, regardless of whether or not he is on that list. However, my heart breaks for the young teen he once was, and the fact that he lost a father at age 6, and the allegations he has made that he was abused by an older man… allegations which were apparently thoroughly investigated, and challenged, and upheld following an independent arbitration process. I do think all the finger pointing now at Soresi’s guilty plea with respect to possession of child porn is a bit of a false equivalency when compared to actual sexual relations by an adult male coach with an underaged, emotionally vulnerable, male student.

People are justified in wondering what exactly was behind Safe Sports decision on Soresi… but I don’t like how that is morphing into victim blaming and general nastiness and harassment. And it is. Soresi was a victim.

Navin will say and do ANYTHING to stay in that circle which she was so excluded from. After what she pulled a year ago I wouldn’t pour water on her if she were in flames. ”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

Let’s all remember that this is about the abuse Jonathan could Not have consented to. Everything else is irrelevant and speculation. Not one of you even once tried to victim blame me when I told my truth here. I was TERRIFIED I would be vilified but this forum became my strength. Can’t we just remember that this was a CHILD? I hope we can put the issue of Who abused him away and focus on a little bit of the empathy and support you so freely gave to me such a short time ago?

[erinmeri]

Haven’t read all this, but did have a disheartening convo with a former barnmate about this and #metoo. At the end of the day, we won’t all agree… but if we can convince even one person that living a life “Unmolested”, to bastardize a quote from Sarah Maslin Nir’s article, is not something that we should have to aspire to… then maybe we can inch things forward. Maybe?

[anon6923113]

@fair judy

Navin will say and do ANYTHING to stay in that circle which she was so excluded from. After what she pulled a year ago I wouldn’t pour water on her if she were in flames. ”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

Let’s all remember that this is about the abuse Jonathan could Not have consented to. Everything else is irrelevant and speculation. Not one of you even once tried to victim blame me when I told my truth here. I was TERRIFIED I would be vilified but this forum became my strength. Can’t we just remember that this was a CHILD? I hope we can put the issue of Who abused him away and focus on a little bit of the empathy and support you so freely gave to me such a short time ago?

I ABSOLUTELY have empathy for Jonathan and what he’s going through - don’t misunderstand my post. I do think Safe Sport’s decision to lift his suspension while permanently banking GM is odd in terms of the timing. Questions about this are fair. Bonnie Navin is responsible for some ridiculous misdirection on many counts with respect to Safe Sport though… so my point was actually that her assertion about him having gotten some sort of “deal” is worthy of an eye roll in my opinion.

I do have trouble with child porn of any kind… I’m a mother and that’s something I am unable to ignore. but the fact is that we don’t actually know what was involved in his specific case… other than what he plead guilty to. With that being said…His public record in no way compares to what GM apparently did to him as a young person. The ISWG folks expressing OUTRAGE at SafeSport lifting Soresi’s ban, but upholding GMs? It’s ridiculous. Soresi’s crime isn’t even remotely comparable to what GM apparently did.

I hope that’s a little more clear

[fair_judy]

@Virginia Horse Mom

I ABSOLUTELY have empathy for Jonathan and what he’s going through - don’t misunderstand my post. I do think Safe Sport’s decision to lift his suspension while permanently banking GM is odd in terms of the timing. Questions about this are fair. Bonnie Navin is responsible for some ridiculous misdirection on many counts with respect to Safe Sport though… so my point was actually that her assertion about him having gotten some sort of “deal” is worthy of an eye roll in my opinion.

I do have trouble with child porn of any kind… I’m a mother and that’s something I am unable to ignore. but the fact is that we don’t actually know what was involved in his specific case… other than what he plead guilty to. With that being said…His public record in no way compares to what GM apparently did to him as a young person. The ISWG folks expressing OUTRAGE at SafeSport lifting Soresi’s ban, but upholding GMs? It’s ridiculous. Soresi’s crime isn’t even remotely comparable to what GM apparently did.

I hope that’s a little more clear

@Virginia Horse Mom I loved your post. I’m so sorry I was using it in the quote as an example of how we might move towards empathy.

[BigMama1]

@Virginia Horse Mom

I ABSOLUTELY have empathy for Jonathan and what he’s going through - don’t misunderstand my post. I do think Safe Sport’s decision to lift his suspension while permanently banking GM is odd in terms of the timing. Questions about this are fair. Bonnie Navin is responsible for some ridiculous misdirection on many counts with respect to Safe Sport though… so my point was actually that her assertion about him having gotten some sort of “deal” is worthy of an eye roll in my opinion.

I do have trouble with child porn of any kind… I’m a mother and that’s something I am unable to ignore. but the fact is that we don’t actually know what was involved in his specific case… other than what he plead guilty to. With that being said…His public record in no way compares to what GM apparently did to him as a young person. The ISWG folks expressing OUTRAGE at SafeSport lifting Soresi’s ban, but upholding GMs? It’s ridiculous. Soresi’s crime isn’t even remotely comparable to what GM apparently did.

I hope that’s a little more clear

I think the timing is simply because a number of appeals were reviewed at the same time. As to what the appeal uncovered that led to them overturning the initial ban, we likely will never know. Did they impose a lighter punishment or simply revoke it entirely?

[mvp]

@fair judy

Navin will say and do ANYTHING to stay in that circle which she was so excluded from. After what she pulled a year ago I wouldn’t pour water on her if she were in flames. ”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

Let’s all remember that this is about the abuse Jonathan could Not have consented to. Everything else is irrelevant and speculation. Not one of you even once tried to victim blame me when I told my truth here. I was TERRIFIED I would be vilified but this forum became my strength. Can’t we just remember that this was a CHILD? I hope we can put the issue of Who abused him away and focus on a little bit of the empathy and support you so freely gave to me such a short time ago?

Yeah.

I don’t know how to resolve these things: 1. “I wouldn’t hire him to coach my kids”; with 2. “My heart breaks for him because he was Done To as a teen. Not is fault he turned from victim to predator”; with 3 “Yet being on that the offender list (and see points one and two), I join those who aren’t sure they like the idea of someone making a deal to get off that list.”

It seems to me that #3, doing what it takes to get off the banned or Sex Offender list is quite rational behavior given the fact that no one has any plan for helping a young victim of sexual abuse whose life gets really. really screwed up. I am sure Nevin is not at all interested in helping; the statement was another display of meanness.

[dannyboy]

While I don’t think JS ever deserved a lifetime ban ( there’s a big difference between acting on something and fantasizing about it - and there’s no evidence that he actually molested anyone AFAIK) I think the timing of his reinstatement was a PR disaster. It gives credence to the idea that “he got a deal for ratting out George”. I don’t believe that, but it looks odd in an already explosive atmosphere.

As far as “the other individual” If we’re talking about the same person, yes it’s business as usual for him, on the list or off. His offense was in NY, he petitioned to get off the VA list a few years ago. His business is largely unaffected because he doesn’t show or coach at rated shows. I still would never recommend him or his farm for many reasons, but people still send their kids there.

[LexInVA]

His supposed reinstatement is a disaster no matter what angle you look at it from. The PR is bad, the timing is bad, the unanswered questions are only going to get louder and worse, he and his business are going to be ostracized and likely attacked on all sides from the GM-worshiping H/J masses and the Mafioso-types that call the shots, likely pushing for sabotage or “violent accidents”.

As for TN, his NY case hasn’t been touched since it wrapped in 2000, so his offender status remains, even if he’s not on the SO registry in any state.

[mvp]

@dannyboy

While I don’t think JS ever deserved a lifetime ban ( there’s a big difference between acting on something and fantasizing about it - and there’s no evidence that he actually molested anyone AFAIK) I think the timing of his reinstatement was a PR disaster. It gives credence to the idea that “he got a deal for ratting out George”. I don’t believe that, but it looks odd in an already explosive atmosphere.

As far as “the other individual” If we’re talking about the same person, yes it’s business as usual for him, on the list or off. His offense was in NY, he petitioned to get off the VA list a few years ago. His business is largely unaffected because he doesn’t show or coach at rated shows. I still would never recommend him or his farm for many reasons, but people still send their kids there.

On your first paragraph, I’d say “Yabbut” to your “I don’t believe it but it look Odd in an already explosive atmosphere.”

I think “how it looks because of context having nothing to do with the person, facts or process” is unfair. This is important stuff. I think all involved deserve the most careful and conscientious, critical thought we can muster. If Soresi, in fact, did not deserve to be banned, then that’s what should hold weight, no more and no less. If you don’t believe something is true, it doesn’t matter who odd it looks. The truth, as you know it, is what matters.

With respect to the second point (and I don’t mean to pick on you, honest! Rather, I write for everyone’s eyes), the reach of the USEF and SafeSport go only so far. The USEF used all the teeth it had on Barney Ward and Paul Vallier. The ban on Morris is, similarly, the farthest reach it has. What allows these bad actors to stay in business or not, as you say, are the people who patronize them outside of training at shows. As I wrote above, I don’t know why these USEF members are not nailed or excommunicated or whatever for “aiding and abetting” those banned people. But my larger complaints is with the people who know what a-holes (or worse) they are and still more-or-less proudly employ them. I think money is power in the US and I think it’s wrong to fund grossly immoral behavior, even that $100 riding lesson you take because you think they guy is a great horseman (though you would tell anyone you don’t support their other really horrific behavior.) I got news for you: If you paid him, you supported it.

[Dinah-do]

MVP - yup…sleep with dogs you will get fleas…

[YEG]

Also not to pick on you dannyboy- given that a large part of this thread is about changing the culture of looking the other way, and not allowing people like this around our children, can we name them instead of calling them “the other individual”? Maybe there are legal implications (I get that no one wants to be hit with a defamation lawsuit). But I for one have no idea who any of these people being whispered about are.

I don’t have any wish for people to be tried in a court of public opinion if it’s not true. But it sounds like there is at least one person out there who everyone knows is shady and he’s still being allowed to teach.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@mvp

Yeah.

I don’t know how to resolve these things: 1. “I wouldn’t hire him to coach my kids”; with 2. “My heart breaks for him because he was Done To as a teen. Not is fault he turned from victim to predator”; with 3 “Yet being on that the offender list (and see points one and two), I join those who aren’t sure they like the idea of someone making a deal to get off that list.”

It seems to me that #3, doing what it takes to get off the banned or Sex Offender list is quite rational behavior given the fact that no one has any plan for helping a young victim of sexual abuse whose life gets really. really screwed up. I am sure Nevin is not at all interested in helping; the statement was another display of meanness.

Here is my take on Jonathan’s interim suspension being lifted.

Safe Sport uses the following when considering a penalty.

“B. Considerations
Factors relevant to determining appropriate sanctions include, without limitation:

1. Seriousness of the Violation;
2. The Responding Party’s prior history;
3. Ages of individuals involved;
4. Whether the Responding Party poses an ongoing threat to the safety of others;
5. Voluntary disclosure of offense and/or cooperation by the Responding Party;
6. Disposition of an investigation by state or federal law authorities;
7. Real or perceived impact of incident on the Reporting Party, NGB(s) or USOC;
8. Other mitigating and aggravating circumstances.”

Others have been on the SS banned list due to a listed on the sex offender registry. They too were removed after an investigation was done.

If you go through the list of factors (as any good lawyer should do):

1. I do not believe anyone filed a complaint against Jonathan. He is on the list due to the sex registry listing.
2. Only one incident of possession
3. Ages involved is not relevant because there was no incident report filed.
4. This is the question to be answered…
5. He pled guilty and was cooperating with SS
6. The possession charge went through the legal system
7. No reporting party, therefore this does not apply
8. Unknown

So if there was no incident report against Jonathan and he was on because of the sex registry listing, one could assume SafeSport has evaluated the situation and felt it was appropriate to remove his name. His removal may have nothing to do with the other arbitration. It is only those looking for someone to blame that jump to the conclusion he must have made a deal.

And I agree with Fair Judy, I wouldn’t throw water on her either.

[fair_judy]

@YEG

Also not to pick on you dannyboy- given that a large part of this thread is about changing the culture of looking the other way, and not allowing people like this around our children, can we name them instead of calling them “the other individual”? Maybe there are legal implications (I get that no one wants to be hit with a defamation lawsuit). But I for one have no idea who any of these people being whispered about are.

I don’t have any wish for people to be tried in a court of public opinion if it’s not true. But it sounds like there is at least one person out there who everyone knows is shady and he’s still being allowed to teach.

I believe the COTH policy is currently that if a forum member wishes to post regarding a specific individual with criminal accusations the poster must identify themselves with their actual name.

[YEG]

@fair judy

I believe the COTH policy is currently that if a forum member wishes to post regarding a specific individual with criminal accusations the poster must identify themselves with their actual name.

Thank you! Understandable then.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

A few hours ago, the Chronicle posted an article on its website (and a link on Facebook) addressing the Morris suspension.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/no-winners-no-guidance-and-no-guts-after-morris-hearing

[anon6923113]

@YEG

Also not to pick on you dannyboy- given that a large part of this thread is about changing the culture of looking the other way, and not allowing people like this around our children, can we name them instead of calling them “the other individual”? Maybe there are legal implications (I get that no one wants to be hit with a defamation lawsuit). But I for one have no idea who any of these people being whispered about are.

I don’t have any wish for people to be tried in a court of public opinion if it’s not true. But it sounds like there is at least one person out there who everyone knows is shady and he’s still being allowed to teach.

DannyBoy was actually referencing a post of mine in which I used the example of “another individual” who had been on the New York State Sex Offender registry, and then came off it after 10 years.

The only reason I didn’t name him is that I didn’t want to drag this thread off on a tangent. I admittedly got he RG thread off on a bit of a tangent discussing TN at length, because his case is alarming to me (his farm was associated with the George Mason IHSA team for awhile, and I knew a few REALLY nice young women who participated on that team a few years ago, and the whole thing was upsetting to think about).

That individual is Tom Navarro. He is still on the Safe Sport banned list - he’s banned for life. And apparently he did attempt to appeal it… and failed. His barn and lesson program are still around… and clueless Loudoun parents support it. It’s a good location. But it seems like people who participate in recognized shows, and people who are a bit more knowledgeable all shun him. For a number of reasons…

I drew the parallel between him and Soresi only to illustrate that coming off the sex offender registry because of the terms of a specific plea deal apparently does NOT mean someone will also automatically come off the Safe Sport list. And in the state of New York (and a few others), it is possible to be on the sex offender register for only a limited duration. It depends on the offense. Soresi and Navarro both were charged I. the state of New York for the stuff that landed them on the Safe Sport list.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

This whole thing caused me to do a little research about pedophilia and/or sexual attraction to minors. I found this recent article, which had some very surprising information (quoted below): https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/29/us/pedophiles-online-sex-abuse.html

As scientists seek to understand how the disorder develops, there is growing consensus that the origin is largely biological. This view is based in part on studies pointing to subtle physical traits that have a higher incidence among pedophiles.

“The biological clues attached to pedophilia demonstrate that its roots are prenatal,” said James Cantor, director of the Toronto Sexuality Center. “These are not genetic; they can be traced to specific periods of development in the womb.”

Psychological and environmental factors may also contribute, though it is not yet clear what those are or how they interact with developmental conditions.

By contrast, the common presumption that pedophiles were themselves abused as children now has less support. Child victims are at far greater risk of future substance abuse, depression, persistent traumatic stress or criminal aggression than of becoming molesters. The vast majority of offenders deny any sex abuse in their childhood, even though they could garner sympathy in court by doing so, experts say.

[LexInVA]

In the case of JS, the one thing that continues to stick out to me is the documented fact - in the charges - that he had hardly any content (17 files) in his possession and they apparently found nothing on external HDDs or any other storage medium, if they even found any of that in his belongings, when they searched his living space and business locations. Statistically speaking, that’s an anomaly in the pile of CP arrests and convictions at that time, in which arrested and convicted offenders, particularly those at his age, had hundreds/thousands of files on various storage mediums or one or more computers, and I’m not saying that negates any guilt of deliberate possession on his part or gives me a profound notion of innocence due to a “set-up” or conspiracy, but it’s an oddity and the quick n’ easy guilty plea that he entered, with zilch forensic evidence or testimony presented in court just makes me think there’s something more here than has ever been disclosed. His seized computer and whatever else they have in the evidence cache for his case should be examined by competent investigators, with today’s investigation methods and forensic processes, in order to clearly establish facts and where/who the files came from, as well as how they ended up on his laptop.

For all we know, they may belong to Georgie Boy himself and given his already advanced age back in the mid-2000’s, it’s not likely that he owned a personal laptop at that time, though it’s certainly possible that he did. Given that Soresi was under his thrall for decades and continued to have close associations and proximity with him at the time of his arrest and fast guilty plea, as well as what we know now about Georgio’s proclivities, I would not discount the possibility of his involvement in the matter, as a secondary, occasional user of his laptop, who might have put the files there for his own use and JS “taking one for the team” out of his own mental anguish and established conditioning towards George, as an authority figure and controller.