You can read my original comment to see if I used the term “illiterate” correctly. No, I don’t think Illiterate means “declined to study literature in college.” I’m not gratuitously snarky or careful about language. But I do reserve the right to be clear.
1 Like
[
QUOTE=Ubu&Goober;n10534843]
He would also seem to be “conditioning” her to the idea of voluntarily pursuing restorative justice over other recourse should she ever be unfortunate enough to find herself in a position to have to make that choice…[/QUOTE]
My bold above. I hadn’t thought about how all the sicko stuff DM says about his own daughter could, if he actually says this stuff to her, (rather than just drone on and on on social media) it could condition her to be the perfect victim. Because, the way he frames it, his minor child if ever a victim of abuse, would be expected to “live with her choices” and “learn from her mistakes”. 😱😱😱😱
Those are his own words when asked after RG’s suicide how he would feel if his own child was a victim. So these statements are out there. He clearly believes that the victims are responsible for their choices.
I am NOT saying that he is intentionally doing this as I have no way of knowing his intentions.
5 Likes
Because she makes people think there are fees associated with the Safe Sport investigation. The fees charged by JAMS, it’s own entity, have zero to do with safe sport. One pays JAMS when they appeal. If one is investigated and admits guilt, gets banned, has no intention of appealing, no fees.
6 Likes
I was responding to your subsequent post in which you clarified that in your first post you were using “illiterate” “literally”, to refer to someone who hadn’t read Nobokov “for whatever reason” and relied on the movie instead.
Of the large number of people who have not read Nobokov, I assume very few are literally “illiterate” and the vast majority are fully literate but spent college and leisure time reading other stuff. Your references to non readers of Nobokov as “illiterate” seemed harsh.
But maybe I just didn’t understand the second post.
2 Likes
It was a hindsight thought based on this statement of his (copied and pasted from post #87 by VHM in LIVESTREAM… thread)
"…I have a 10-year-old daughter and one of the topics that we discussed is to get away from this either/or he’s right she’s wrong kind of dialogue and move to the restorative justice. It’s practiced extensively in schools thankfully and it’s one of the more civilized aspects of America and things that give me hope. It’s particularly sad, tragic, that there was no opportunity for something like that in Rob’s case.”
in combination with his words and thought process in general on this topic it does seem as if her environmental frame of reference for judging behavior will be skewed somewhat.
and from post #71 in same thread:
I’m a father of a daughter. If you don’t think I would take a machete to somebody that acted inappropriately towards her? Then you don’t know me. But it also doesn’t mean that I’m going to teach her, as she grows, and Finds herself in situations where she has choices and she can decide what exploration she wants to make or not make, that she will have an awareness of the consequences and she will have an awareness not to be a victim and to speak up.
He doesn’t seem to recognize the effect of the power imbalance in a relationship and how a person might not feel like they have a “choice” with regard to the consequences they will have to live with.
6 Likes
@Ubu&Goober I totally get it. I’m just saying I don’t know the man and I don’t know if he’s serious or playing devils advocate. I hope he’s playing devils advocate or speaking from the pain of losing a good friend.
I feel for the people who lost a friend, a brother, a mentor when RG suicided. Couple that with having that same person be banned for molestation, rape who knows what with kids and I can see why people would be in denial. That’s a lot to come to grips with in a short amount of time. I’m not saying his words are “right” I’m just saying I hope they are coming from a place of confusion (I’m sure there is a better word) rather than firm beliefs.
Sometimes I think people forget how many lives are impacted by crime. It’s not just the victim and the perpetrator who gets caught. It’s the friends and family of both parties who may not have known. Who may have been told something but didn’t believe it. Crime, especially of this nature, has a huge ripple effect.
2 Likes
I do not agree with your statement that JAMS “has nothing to do with SafeSport.” JAMS is the provider of the independent arbitration services which, according to SafeSport code, the accused has the right to invoke, at their own expense, in the overall SS procedure. It is vital to the SafeSport process that the option of appeal is provided. Again, it makes no difference whether one writes the check to SafeSport or JAMS. The respondent bears the cost of the arbitration option provided in the overall SafeSport procedure. As they should.
It was time two rounds ago to just agree the other is wrong and call it a day.
1 Like
I don’t think he’s playing devil’s advocate. His stated position on this has been consistent over months and months. And I do know him.
4 Likes
Given that his wife is a victim and he has a young daughter, I find his public statements quite alarming.
9 Likes
I feel like there is nothing stopping people from mounting a legal challenge in an appellate court. If I’m wrong please correct me. However, it’s cheaper to go through JAMS and stick with arbitration. That being said… You are smart and use your brain. When BN talks about fees you agree because YOU know through your own education that JAMS costs money. However, some people are not like you. And that is BN’s target audience. SOME people think it is Safe Sport who charges money not JAMS.
I mean hell the last question of the night was about fees in the 6k+ range for Safe Sport. Dear Mr. Henry was trying not to laugh when the woman insisted that is what she heard.
No BN is not wrong that there are fees associated. (Potentially). However she makes people who unlike yourself, don’t educate themselves think it’s safe sport who charges.
3 Likes
I hear where you are coming from, and I can understand where others are coming from, and I can understand looking at this guy’s public posts, and just thinking, “Wow. He’s a pretentious blow hard and just taking an opportunity to exercise his right to free speech, defend the friend that he lost, and toss around a few philosophical concepts that don’t actually fit very well in this situation… but he likes his pet theories.”
In many respects, that’s my instinctive reaction based on what I have seen and read.
HOWEVER… something about him coming right on back into these discussions with a vengeance, and launching into ISWG territory in addition to defending his old friend… coupled with the fact that so much of what he says strikes me as incredibly tone deaf given his own wife’s published personal experience with Lipari?
Something about it all is making my hair stand up on end.
@Peggy says she has known him a long time, and had a generalized, charitable take on him. But she also says he is serious about his opinions on this stuff. In general, I have always found her to be a very reasonable poster on these forums. So bluntly… my hair is still standing on end because I take that to mean he sincerely thinks that victims somehow need to bear more responsibility for the role they played in their own abuse…
He seems to be saying these things in an affable, dime store philosopher, Southern California sort of way… but somehow, eventually… it ends up in a place where it seems that he takes a round about path to making the case that the victims in the RG and GM cases were NOT actually really and truly victims at all. Just kids who were having sex with their adult coaches. And all of us in flyover country just can’t handle the complexities of such things, and aren’t smart enough to understand how to discuss and justify it.
I find this alarming. And concerning. And not a helpful discussion for our sport at present… because these are the ideas Safe Sport is trying to move the community AWAY from.
For someone who fancies himself quite progressive and intellectual… this guy is really incredibly backwards and… “pig ignorant.”
15 Likes
For clarity, “conditioning” might not have been a nuanced enough word choice. I stayed away from “grooming” because by no means did I want to suggest that it is a deliberate attempt to shape her that way. Conditioning (by exposure in her general environment) seemed to be the best descriptor for what I was trying to get at. Not at all the same, but the concept I was aiming toward is something akin to growing up in a place with high traffic. All you know is high traffic density and are clueless as to how different it can be in the middle of nowhere with vast stretches of highway and no other vehicles.
Would certainly welcome other word choice suggestions
ETA: I don’t know him so would not want imply that I know what he is doing with regard to raising his daughter. My comments were an observation on the environment that he has depicted in his posts
4 Likes
I think conditioning is an excellent word choice.
Hap Hansen’s comments way back from 2018 and the NYT article about JW got brought up on another thread today…
He essentially admitted he had seen JW carrying on with young girls. But he was annoyed about it getting brought up now and didn’t exhibit ANY care or concern about it. It came across like he thought the whole thing was a non issue.
To me… that’s an example of conditioning.
Its also worth noting, Rob Gage rose with JW as a late teenager as well. And was part of the scene out in SoCal.
He got a lifetime ban for abusing young teenage girls as an adult male coach.
Maybe his case case had nothing to do with time he spent as a student of JW as an older teen and very young adult. Or… maybe it was conditioning.
Conditioning, be it inadvertent, or intentional… is a serious issue. Just my opinion. And I actually thought your choice of that word was excellent.
I won’t judge DMs intentions. I don’t know him. But the impact of his words on actual victims who are reading them? Victims of RG and GM? And the potential impact of his careless words and odd ramblings on his own wife and daughter? That concerns me… and I do judge it quite harshly.
14 Likes
In other news concerning Safe Sport (as if we needed more news)
Athletes for Equity in Sport has just put out a 6 point plan concerning reforms they think are appropriate. It’s in a letter format that has been shared on their Facebook page, and Diane Carney’s page. I would include a link… but my forum account won’t allow me to.
I would copy and paste the text of all 6 points here also… but the way they published it with a letter onto Facebook wont allow me to either. :lol:
I have the impression that they are not exactly enamored with my tendency to follow their public statements, copy them verbatim, and share on these forums so that folks can analyze the information :winkgrin:
6 Likes
$6,000 would be pretty cheap for an arbitration. Unless SafeSport has a special deal, most JAMS arbitrators charge between $500-1,000 per hour, sometimes more. Assume the arbitration is one day, and the arbitrator has spent a couple hours reading documents ahead of time and spends a few hours afterwards writing his or her decision. That can easily add up to $10k. There is also a $1500 filing fee.
Mr. Henry may have been trying not to laugh at the idea that you can do a JAMS arbitration for $6k.
2 Likes
Wow I didn’t think the thread would veer so hard to
Duncan. I hadn’t actually read his other recent posts but he was one of those casual Fbook friends. I think he is maybe three years younger than I? I recall he was riding ponies and my own trainer schooled him off and on. Good feel. He was one who thought highly of his ability and thought the world was against him even as a kid.
I am more than aghast to read his comments.
I believe in redemption and accept it as a completely non religious term.
@Virginia Horse Mom no problem on my Facebook moniker. Using both my alter here and a different name on social media bothers me. DON’T WORRY. Pair is my middle name😎
It bears mentioning that to now he has not contacted me by phone. I doubt he will.
5 Likes
@Virginia Horse Mom and @ubu&Goober Please don’t think I’m judging you guys. I myself am not comfortable speculating. That is all. 
2 Likes
You are aware of things like government contracts right?
3 Likes
My immediate reaction is that it would be a BIG relief to all the 60 - 80 year old folks who were apparently engaging in really ugly behavior decades ago if complaints about them weren’t prioritized.
Unreal.
The other one that caught my attention is number 3. They want a “full exchange” of all information gathered during an investigation.
I read that to mean they want to know who all the witnesses are, and what they all said.
Yeah… that’s an issue. A big one. Because call me crazy… but my guess is that will lead to retaliation and should that measure go through… no one will EVER want to say ANYTHING about certain people at the top of the sport. People like GM.
Just my opinion. Maybe I am missing something though.
20 Likes
I agree. Clearly they are not familiar with cases that are heavily redacted. My question is why didn’t they take up this crusade in 2018… oh wait they did after a friend suicided.
I’ll admit I searched the forums for BNs past posts and even she admitted to ignoring a crime to keep riding.
5 Likes
