George Morris on the SS list

[skydy]

@anon6003733

I think the idea of the domino effect may be lurking out there as a hidden trigger. Even if misconduct is not something one has to worry about oneself, other empires toppling around you are not good for the bottom line.

The irony is that getting on board with SafeSport now in the midst of the firestorm will surely serve their businesses well for years to come. It’s the principled thing to do and because of that they’ll land on the right side of history.

It’s the long game but you can’t see it if you’re convinced you need to be in preservation mode.

I don’t see the irony, but I certainly think it behooves those that consider the prevention and punishment of child abuse as something that is important, to make it clear that they aren’t complicit.

By making such instant and desperate attempts to diminish Safe Sport’s banning of Morris, their writings show that most of these people seem to have either not read, or not understood, the Safe Sport literature and are doing themselves and their cause no credit whatsoever.

If some parents don’t care what happens to their children as long as they win at horse shows, well thankfully Safe Sport exists and most all of us give a damn.
I think most parents do give a damn. They just don’t expect USEF to give kiddie porn fans and child molesters free rein in their organization.

It’s good for parents and kids to be able to have a place to research and thus to choose between a coach that has excellent teaching skills and yet has been set down for molesting minors, and a good coach that has no sexual interest in their students.

I think many families that are able to provide their children with horses and training at very advanced levels have caught on and are more careful about who they trust their children to.

For everyday folks that are financing the kiddo’s horsey dream? They should not have to be in the “know” to keep their kid away from a trainer that everyone else knows is untrustworthy.

It’s not that much to ask.

[Sunflower]

@IPEsq

Well, not necessarily but there would have to be most likely a different claim raised under the greater Act that SS is a part of, or this issue would need to somehow wind up back in front of the Court (unlikely).

Does the Court of Arbitration for Sport come into play at all with Safe Sport? https://www.tas-cas.org/en/index.html I do note that Safe Sport has arbitration as part of its process. For those yelling about due process, sports governance happens in a different arena than criminal law-- arbitration seems to be the go-to for dispute resolution.

[anon6003733]

@skydy

…I think many families that are able to provide their children with horses and training at very advanced levels have caught on and are more careful about who they trust their children to.

For everyday folks that are financing the kiddo’s horsey dream? They should not have to be in the “know” to keep their kid away from a trainer that everyone else knows is untrustworthy…

It’s not that much to ask.

This part of your post is what I mean by the irony, but maybe I’m not sure what irony means? How about paradox.

Anyway point being that by joining in the backlash against SafeSport they risk losing that concerned and more (SS) educated client base, which might be an unintended consequence.

Stepping out in support of SafeSport is the principled thing to do and has the added benefit of serving their businesses well.

Anyway no crystal ball, just throwing thoughts around

[roseymare]

@TooManyBays

But, at the same time, I’m sure your friends conviction wasn’t on the front pages and ‘the talk’ of the equestrian internet.
I think these BNTs are in shock and disbelief over hearing their friend did something like this. There is a lot of thoughts of ‘I never saw that behavior and I’ve known him for x years!’
They will cool off, probably after the appeal is done, and come to realize that criminals don’t commit crimes in ways that get caught. If a person is sloppy, they would have gone to jail years ago, SS or not. SS wasn’t created for the obvious abuse situations.

If you go through my posts, especially from the Rob Gage thread, my original reaction to SS was ‘this can’t be true. SS must be corrupt/wrong/incompetent.’ But after things cooled off, I realized that not everything has to have some sort of agenda behind it. Sometimes, people do bad stuff and get caught. I think that a lot of these BNTs are gonna feel the same way in a few days.

As to Tex’s teacher friend, if it was in the era of FB I am sure it was all over the local news and websites. And probably picked up by any larger towns in the vicinity. Plenty of internet discussion I’d suspect. At least around my neck of the woods it would have been.

[laiqalasse]

Holy cow. I just read all 43 pages of this in one go and it’s now 3:21 in the morning and my eyes are going a little crossed at this point. I don’t really have much to add to this thread except a thought I had while reading.

I’ve seen a few people on here wondering why people would defend/stand with GM at this point, and I saw responses saying that some of his supporters are likely abusers, too, which is very likely true. And another response or two stating that people like to be associated with big names/people with prestige and don’t want to admit that they associated with the wrong person. There’s likely a lot of that, too. What occurred to me is that there’s probably another smaller set, and those are the people who were abused by GM and/or people like him, who don’t want to, or can’t, admit that what happened to them was actually abuse. They’ve told themselves that it’s just “what happens” and “what you have to do” to succeed. And if they’re forced to admit that what he did/does is abuse, then they have to admit to themselves that they were abused, too. Some people simply can’t do that.

[skydy]

@anon6003733

This part of your post is what I mean by the irony, but maybe I’m not sure what irony means? How about paradox.

Anyway point being that by joining in the backlash against SafeSport they risk losing that concerned and more (SS) educated client base, which might be an unintended consequence.

Stepping out in support of SafeSport is the principled thing to do and has the added benefit of serving their businesses well.

Anyway no crystal ball, just throwing thoughts around

I think that you and I agree that the best business model for H/J trainers and instructors is to remain calm and try to behave like intelligent professionals, not illogical reactionaries freaking out on the internet for the world to see.

As you mentioned, being a non-supporter of someone who has been banned for sexual assault of a minor is actually good for business in the long run. Amazing how that is not sinking in.

I thought Beezie Madden made a considered and thoughtful statement when asked for her reaction to the ban. Professionals in the Equestrian world could learn from it.

[specifiedcupcake]

@endlessclimb

100% agree with you.

Unfortunately, most of the rest of the HJ world does not agree with us.

The question still stands, in a broader sense. If someone is accused and successfully appeals, are we ready to accept them back? If not, can we agree that a SS suspension is going to cause lifetime damage to someone’s career, regardless of if the claims are justified or not?

Before “anyone” comes at me guns blazing saying I’m a sympathizer, I’m not. I just think discussing all possibilities are important. Know thine enemy.

Personally, it depends on the circumstances of the overturn. For example if this goes to court and gets thrown out because of something like “illegally obtained evidence” (thinking of the guy who recorded his daughter crying and telling her friend about the abuse on the phone - apparently that renders the whole case invalid) or another weird legal technicality…no probably not.

GM is still a butthole to people who pay him a lot of money and I never understood why people pay so much and found it so funny when he calls people stupid, fat, etc. Like, you can be a good coach without being a jerk so that kind of behaviour should not be lauded.

[specifiedcupcake]

@Jealoushe

I think the push back will cause details to come out and then those who are in support of GM are going to feel really stupid and awful when they see what the actual stories are. Careful what you wish for.

If Hilary Ridland’s Q&A post taught us anything, they’re more likely to get called ugly names and told “they’re jealous and doing it for attention.” :rolleyes:

[Denali6298]

@TooManyBays

But, at the same time, I’m sure your friends conviction wasn’t on the front pages and ‘the talk’ of the equestrian internet.
I think these BNTs are in shock and disbelief over hearing their friend did something like this. There is a lot of thoughts of ‘I never saw that behavior and I’ve known him for x years!’
They will cool off, probably after the appeal is done, and come to realize that criminals don’t commit crimes in ways that get caught. If a person is sloppy, they would have gone to jail years ago, SS or not. SS wasn’t created for the obvious abuse situations.

If you go through my posts, especially from the Rob Gage thread, my original reaction to SS was ‘this can’t be true. SS must be corrupt/wrong/incompetent.’ But after things cooled off, I realized that not everything has to have some sort of agenda behind it. Sometimes, people do bad stuff and get caught. I think that a lot of these BNTs are gonna feel the same way in a few days.

Well I’m sure it was splashed around the relevant community. That being said, I believe you are correct about people’s knee jerk reactions as posts are now being edited. However, IMO, it is extremely unprofessional to go ranting on social media and/or not remaining neutral until it’s all said and done.

People keep saying “we don’t know the details.” No we don’t. The pros saying it can’t be true, Safe Sport needs an overhaul blah blah blah need to take a page from Beezie and can it. Talk in private not in public.

For example, we have a situation at work right now that will be disclosed publicly. We don’t know the details, it will eventually hit the news and we will know exactly what is going on. You can bet we also will stay silent, no one has posted on social media about what little we do know and people will get in trouble if they do talk openly. It’s not about sweeping things under the carpet, but rather keeping things professional.

[Bogey2]

Well now add a dressage trainer to the mix…only this time a person got shot in the chest twice. This is not safe sports fault…it’s the fault of those who stand/stood by and let others behave poorly. The horse business has been under the radar but will not be for much longer.

[Denali6298]

@Angela Freda

At this point we need t shirts with this on it… and on the back it can remind people that adult having sex with kids was never acceptable nor legal…
Perhaps back on page one people could read the outline of what and how SS operates, verify they understand, so we stop regurgitation of “… but it was 50 years ago… but it’s not a court of law… but he hasn’t been able to cross examine his accusers…”

Good Lord, I thought I was slow…

T-shirts are too subtle. Maybe a nice picture book a la See Spot Run would be more appropriate for the reading comprehension level.

[specifiedcupcake]

@Mardi

This^^^^

So uhhh… pretty sure Safe Sport was created because of the abysmal and absolute FAILURE of the judicial process and system to protect minors. Read as much as you can stand of what happened BEFORE Larry Nassar became a household name for child abuse.

[Texarkana]

@roseymare

As to Tex’s teacher friend, if it was in the era of FB I am sure it was all over the local news and websites. And probably picked up by any larger towns in the vicinity. Plenty of internet discussion I’d suspect. At least around my neck of the woods it would have been.

Bingo. @TooManyBays I can assure you there was no shortage of press coverage and social media debate. We’re talking about a situation that was one of the top news stories on every channel in a metropolitan area of over two million people. The initial impact of something like that is far greater than the GHM story, where at this point, the story is more or less confined to the equestrian world.

I think the “comment” feature on news stories is going to be the downfall of humanity, because it is unreal what people will post. That problem goes well beyond GHM. I understand the point in your previous post that people have something akin to gut reactions and come around with time, but that shouldn’t be an excuse for the sheer awfulness of behavior in the moment. The internet is “forever.” Most people do not go back and remove their original statements once cooler heads prevail; even if they do remove them, the damage is often done as enough seeds of doubt have been planted to continue fueling the hateful conversation.

[dannyboy]

@ Tiramit I attended clinics in the sense that I sat in the stands and watched. Occasionally, the organizer asked me if I would help move jumps. I said that I never would ride in any of his clinics because I wouldn’t put up with the verbal abuse he dished out. I think I said that several times. I do not think that makes me complicit more than any one else who watched and didn’t speak up about their own children or students.

[Silk]

@erinmeri

Also, can we step back a bit on Kristin’s legacy? Who cares. Yes, she was married to Will, but she was a good rider in her own right. She wasn’t a “wifey” of a BNT, Frankly her personal choice of last names shouldn’t bother you. Nor should any other aspect of her personal life. Carry on…

If that is directed towards me, please chill. I was simply answering a question posed by another poster.

[fair_judy]

@fair judy

I will wait for the appeal. The “ we all heard whispers” group should do so also. There is far too much HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW ( fill in the blank) going on here. If people have certain knowledge of abuse, no matter the time period, report.

I’m just reposting my own post. I rode with GM ( not in one clinic) during the oft alluded to time period. I don’t care if he yells at people in lessons… although he never did so with me after I spoke back. I am sick of the innuendo. We are all doing exactly what those of Facebook do. Just stop already and wait for the appeal. No one KNOWS unless you saw it or had it done to you. This group should contact SS. You all know me as a supporter. Let the process work. We shouldn’t be here making dire predictions of certain others from certain regions about to be under scrutiny. All that does is feed the rumor mill. If you have knowledge and have not been contacted through an investigation make the contact.

[ladyj79]

Judy, frankly the process did work.

It has concluded and found George in violation.

He is appealing, as is his right, but that definitely does not at all diminish the findings and conclusions of the process.

We are at exactly the same place as we were with the Rob Gage case, and this is exactly the behaviour that compelled victims to come forward as they had no obligation to do and literally put themselves in physical and emotional harms way to quell the insanity. which it didnt. victims are still lying opportunists murdering legends.

This is no different. George is not special.

[fair_judy]

@ladyj79

Judy, frankly the process did work.

It has concluded and found George in violation.

He is appealing, as is his right, but that definitely does not at all diminish the findings and conclusions of the process.

We are at exactly the same place as we were with the Rob Gage case, and this is exactly the behaviour that compelled victims to come forward as they had no obligation to do and literally put themselves in physical and emotional harms way to quell the insanity. which it didnt. victims are still lying opportunists murdering legends.

This is no different. George is not special.

I did not say George is special. I said wait for the appeal, or for further information provided through the process. Personally I believe that the constant massaging of Any Safe Sport issue regarding actions is counterproductive. When we wander down the “ I heard” road we corrupt that process.

[Denali6298]

@fair judy

I did not say George is special. I said wait for the appeal, or for further information provided through the process. Personally I believe that the constant massaging of Any Safe Sport issue regarding actions is counterproductive. When we wander down the “ I heard” road we corrupt that process.

He was found to be in violation. Appeals are typically won or lost based on an in-depth examination of procedure or if we are talking the actual legal system, a violation of one’s constitutional rights. This does not fall under a constitutional rights issue.

GHM could win the appeal if any process was violated. That’s how appeals work. Doesn’t mean they didn’t do what they were accused of doing, just means the investigation did not follow the procedures as outlined.

[ladyj79]

Judy, I appreciate everything you have brought to this discussion over the last year, but the process has happened.

Wait because I took lessons from George is no more appropriate than wait because George didn’t molest my handsome husband who was an adult.