George Morris on the SS list

[Tiramit]

@Angela Freda

I’m not sure why you keep going after Dannyboy who at least has had the cajones to admit to continuing to attend after seeing things that appeared (at the time, or in hindsight) to be troubling.

I’m not going after Dannyboy. As explained in an earlier post, I used her real-world story for discussion purposes because she has, in detail, presented both sides: negative impression and continued support. If you read my posts, you’ll see I’ve blamed myself and explained that I wasn’t attacking her.

If Dannyboy feels I’ve attacked her, I apologize. That wasn’t my intent.

[ReinerPrincess]

It has been YEARS since I posted in here and I felt compelled to come here to say that this thread is helping me get through the days. Facebook is toxic with the denials and victim-shaming and bullying. This thread gives me hope and life. I am astonished at the amount of people that have - for some inane reason - chosen this hill to die on. I have literally had to unfriend many, many people who are completely willing to throw the entire SS process and the accusers under the bus, and who are willing to twist themselves into knots to defend sexual predators. Not to mention the ‘heroes’ I looked up to as a kid / teen who I’m really having to sadly write off as they step up to defend GM. It is clear just how important this is because obviously the sport cannot and will not police itself. Just thank you all for being thoughtful and discussing this meticulously and intelligently, even when you all don’t completely agree.

[Angela_Freda]

@Tiramit

I’m not going after Dannyboy. As explained in an earlier post, I used her real-world story for discussion purposes because she has, in detail, presented both sides: negative impression and continued support. If you read my posts, you’ll see I’ve blamed myself and explained that I wasn’t attacking her.

If Dannyboy feels I’ve attacked her, I apologize. That wasn’t my intent.

I’ve read your posts. You’re repeating yourself.
I think we all get it, and there’s no need to continue to use Dannyboy as your example. ETA because by your own admission there are plenty of other examples to use, ourselves included.

[Tiramit]

@Angela Freda

I’ve read your posts. You’re repeating yourself.
I think we all get it, and there’s no need to continue to use Dannyboy as your example.

Thank you. Having read the same thing repeated over and over and over by so many other posters, I thought that’s how this thread worked. I appreciate the education.

[Jealoushe]

@ReinerPrincess

It has been YEARS since I posted in here and I felt compelled to come here to say that this thread is helping me get through the days. Facebook is toxic with the denials and victim-shaming and bullying. This thread gives me hope and life. I am astonished at the amount of people that have - for some inane reason - chosen this hill to die on. I have literally had to unfriend many, many people who are completely willing to throw the entire SS process and the accusers under the bus, and who are willing to twist themselves into knots to defend sexual predators. Not to mention the ‘heroes’ I looked up to as a kid / teen who I’m really having to sadly write off as they step up to defend GM. It is clear just how important this is because obviously the sport cannot and will not police itself. Just thank you all for being thoughtful and discussing this meticulously and intelligently, even when you all don’t completely agree.

Same…it’s just crazy. I unliked so many pages too run by these idiots. To think it all started last year or so ago when I had to first unlike Denny Emmersons page.

[FlaxenChestnut]

@skydy

I feel sorry for the people who are honestly shocked at this news. I really do.

I can only imagine how horrible I would feel if someone that I knew and respected was accused, investigated, and found to have had sexual contact with a minor, thus necessitating his removal from access to children.

However I don’t understand the defensive freak out and hysteria about the banning of George Morris, by people who’s only connection to him is not a personal one.

If he was your Dad, your brother, or your close friend, I might understand the instinct to defend him, without giving Safe Sport credit for doing their job, which is to protect minors from abuse…

This is not the case with the majority of people online. who know him only by reputation as a horseman or perhaps have had lessons or clinics with him.

It is an ugly and terrible reality, that people abuse those over whom they have power.

We have to face this. There are still heroes that we can aspire to emulate. Unfortunately some of our heroes are goats. Having them exposed is painful, but is definitely for the best.

I am both surprised and unsurprised by the number of people who only know GM by reputation that are jumping on the anti-SafeSport bandwagon. Hero worship is a dangerous thing IMHO. It’s rife with unrealistic impressions and beliefs, and inevitably leads to disappointment. I agree that there are plenty of people out there deserving of admiration, but no one should be put on a ‘god-like’ pedestal. Realistically, we are all human and no one is beyond reproach.

[caffeinated]

@ReinerPrincess

It has been YEARS since I posted in here and I felt compelled to come here to say that this thread is helping me get through the days. Facebook is toxic with the denials and victim-shaming and bullying. This thread gives me hope and life. I am astonished at the amount of people that have - for some inane reason - chosen this hill to die on. I have literally had to unfriend many, many people who are completely willing to throw the entire SS process and the accusers under the bus, and who are willing to twist themselves into knots to defend sexual predators. Not to mention the ‘heroes’ I looked up to as a kid / teen who I’m really having to sadly write off as they step up to defend GM. It is clear just how important this is because obviously the sport cannot and will not police itself. Just thank you all for being thoughtful and discussing this meticulously and intelligently, even when you all don’t completely agree.

It’s been a bit of a pleasant surprise that COTH has had the most reasonable discussions on these SS issues of just about anywhere online.

As for the heroes we looked up to… I think I gave up on idolizing riders and trainers quite a long time ago. Over the last several decades I’ve learned a lot about what goes on behind the scenes. What people REALLY do to get those great performances. The drugging, including on kids’ ponies, the behind the scenes poling and dubious training techniques, the double dipping for commissions, emotionally abusing clients, lying to clients, the methods of making horses appear sound when they’re not… There are very few big names that I have good feelings about these days. It’s even soured me on watching competition, where I used to feel only thrill, awe, and appreciation, I find myself being far too cynical about what’s happening behind the scenes.

I still have some heroes in the sport but they’re not “big names” - they’re people who have been reasonably successful, who have horses that they’ve raised and loved and brought along and kept sound for years and years, and who clearly put their horses before the win, or who have a gift for teaching (who can be honest and blunt but kind and empathetic at the same time… I love riding with such people and hope to again someday soon)

Maybe losing my faith in people has made it easier to believe things like safe sport violations and such. I do wonder if a lot of people here, having been here and seeing all the stories for years and years and years, share a similar sort of mindset.

[oneequestrienne]

@laiqalasse

Holy cow. I just read all 43 pages of this in one go and it’s now 3:21 in the morning and my eyes are going a little crossed at this point. I don’t really have much to add to this thread except a thought I had while reading.

I’ve seen a few people on here wondering why people would defend/stand with GM at this point, and I saw responses saying that some of his supporters are likely abusers, too, which is very likely true. And another response or two stating that people like to be associated with big names/people with prestige and don’t want to admit that they associated with the wrong person. There’s likely a lot of that, too. What occurred to me is that there’s probably another smaller set, and those are the people who were abused by GM and/or people like him, who don’t want to, or can’t, admit that what happened to them was actually abuse. They’ve told themselves that it’s just “what happens” and “what you have to do” to succeed. And if they’re forced to admit that what he did/does is abuse, then they have to admit to themselves that they were abused, too. Some people simply can’t do that.

Bingo! You said what no one has brought up here yet (as of page 43) but exactly what I asked a group of fellow victims/survivors in the h/j world about last night. I know of at least one female BNT who was vocal in support of RG and even more so of GM. I couldn’t understand why she would react this way. She told me back when she was still a teen about her (then) recent abuse as a working student in the 1980s. It occurred to me that other than those who are worried that they are next and those who just can’t believe that their friend and idol could do such things, some of the loudest, angriest defenders may actually be victims who don’t want this dredged up because it is scary as hell. There are indeed victims, even those from decades ago, who buried and have not ever really come to terms with what happened to them. Whom am I to blame them for that? At first I was angry with my friend but as I look at her and the mess of her personal life, I feel very sad for her.

[gottagrey]

@CPL713

I’m not currently a USEF member, but I will join just to spite the 2,400 in that group :lol:

please remember that of those members - that also includes other disciplines - many of how might not even know who the heck George Morris is… i.e. QH, Arab, Gaited horses, etc.

[Dr_Doolittle]

This has been a loooong thread and I finally got through it, wanting to add my $0.2 but wanting to read all the responses first.

I did the hunters for awhile “back in the day” (started out in Pony Club, and then later returned to my roots and am now an eventer), and there were always whispers about some BNTs back then - but everyone “looked the other way.”

I was never in a program, did my own thing (still do!), so these were all just rumors without substantiation. It was a different time (the 70’s), but does that make it okay to sweep abuse under the rug because “it happened years ago?” THANK GOD it is now being uncovered by an official organization tasked with revealing the predators and sanctioning them; it’s been a long time coming, but better late than never.

I was in Pony Club with Robert Dover and later boarded at the same barn, Gee, Robert. I have always thought better of you…I read his FB posts and am SMH :no:

I am particularly puzzled and rather disgusted by the defense of GM among SO many BNTs and BNRs; their protestations are all over my FB feed (I have well over 600 FB friends and 90% of them are horsepeople), really?? Is this actually about SS, or is it more about “there but for the grace of God go I”? Hmmmm.

They are quite vocal in their attacks on SS, and like a few posters on this thread, seem to misunderstand the whole “guilt and innocence” thing; are confused about the “law” vs an “organization” formed to protect minors and “police” its MEMBERS; jump on the “but it happened 30 years ago!” bandwagon; insist that “without HARD EVIDENCE” he is clearly just being railroaded", etc.

Good grief.

I have my own GM story, which I have kept to myself for many years because he has SO many fans (and apologists) on this BB; the whole naked emperor thing (and his $hit doesn’t stink because “he’s the George.”), so I didn’t want to get flamed or pounced on by his minions.

About 15 or 20 years ago I audited one of his clinics, it was held in an indoor at a fairly well-known hunter barn (which hosts shows), if I were to tell you the location its identity would be pretty clear, so I will withhold that as being irrelevant.

I was sitting on hay bales with a small group of middle-aged women, giggling and whispering (I doubt they rode seriously based on their conversation), but they were all hero-worshipers of “The George”. I just wished they would be quiet so I could hear the clinic!, hoping to glean a bit or learn a new exercise.

The clinic had about 5 riders in each group, and there were two groups (IIRC), the second group had a bay mare ridden by a young woman; she was having some issues, so George hopped on.

(Despite my disgust for him as a person, I have always given him props for getting on his students’ horses; he has my admiration as a rider for doing that, and for pretty much NOTHING else.)

One of the exercises was a line down the long side, followed by an oxer off a turn with a longish runup. The mare was a bit sticky to the oxer with her rider, so George got on to “tune her up”, rode to the oxer with conviction, mare STOPPED suddenly and abruptly (a dirty stop), and he went flying over her head, landing somewhat inelegantly on the other side. Of course his “helmet” popped off, being “an item of apparel” with no chin strap.

He got up, mad as a wet hen, shook himself off, picked up the bat, went over to the mare (who was standing quietly on the takeoff side, reins now in her owner’s hands), and beat the crap out of her; screaming: “WHY DIDN’T YOU TELL ME SHE HAD A DIRTY STOP!!!, THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT, YOU IDIOT!!!” to the girl.

Wow.

It certainly shut everyone up (including the chattering auditors), and there was dead silence. The girl, now in tears, apologized repeatedly. The mare, now very tense with her head up in the air, was remounted - the oxer was lowered significantly, and she was beaten over it several times. Then the girl was put back on. She did the lowered oxer a few times and then called it a day.

NO horseman, GM…A spoiled, egotistical narcissist who has gotten away with bad and abusive behavior for decades!, just because he is a very “BNT” who NO ONE has taken to task.

It’s about damn time.

[IPEsq]

@Sunflower

Does the Court of Arbitration for Sport come into play at all with Safe Sport? https://www.tas-cas.org/en/index.html I do note that Safe Sport has arbitration as part of its process. For those yelling about due process, sports governance happens in a different arena than criminal law-- arbitration seems to be the go-to for dispute resolution.

No I don’t think so. This is not a case that CAS would hear because there is no arbitration agreement with CAS under the SS act and this is not a case arising at the Olympics. There’s also not an international agreement that governs that specifies CAS (an example that does is the WADA protocol).

The next step in the process is JAMS arbitration under the Act. Those decisions can be appealed to court, but the grounds are very narrow (usually the arbitrator was corrupt or similar argument).

It’s been a while since I read the Ted Stevens Act so I’m not sure if there’s a way to challenge the decisions of the Center via a case involving the USOC the same as there is to complain about an arbitrary and capricious sanction initiated by an NGB (you may recall that Farmer tried to go this route at one point and USOC declined to take up the case). However, if the Center somehow erred in its handling of this case, one would think that would come up in the usual appeal process before the independent arbitrator. So, grasping for another suit is premature.

[gottagrey]

@caffeinated

It’s been a bit of a pleasant surprise that COTH has had the most reasonable discussions on these SS issues of just about anywhere online.

As for the heroes we looked up to… I think I gave up on idolizing riders and trainers quite a long time ago. Over the last several decades I’ve learned a lot about what goes on behind the scenes. What people REALLY do to get those great performances. The drugging, including on kids’ ponies, the behind the scenes poling and dubious training techniques, the double dipping for commissions, emotionally abusing clients, lying to clients, the methods of making horses appear sound when they’re not… There are very few big names that I have good feelings about these days. It’s even soured me on watching competition, where I used to feel only thrill, awe, and appreciation, I find myself being far too cynical about what’s happening behind the scenes.

I still have some heroes in the sport but they’re not “big names” - they’re people who have been reasonably successful, who have horses that they’ve raised and loved and brought along and kept sound for years and years, and who clearly put their horses before the win, or who have a gift for teaching (who can be honest and blunt but kind and empathetic at the same time… I love riding with such people and hope to again someday soon)

Maybe losing my faith in people has made it easier to believe things like safe sport violations and such. I do wonder if a lot of people here, having been here and seeing all the stories for years and years and years, share a similar sort of mindset.

Love this post

[2bayboys]

Banging my head against a wall. I am currently arguing with a USEF judge who is saying that SafeSport “suspended” George based solely on an accusation and no investigation. Said she was told this is how it works at the last judge’s seminar she attended.

I’ve tried to explain that this is a lifetime ban, not a suspension. I can’t even.

[poltroon]

Holy cats.

I used to ride a mare like that. She had a stop but she would jump for me. A better rider would get on her and she was dirty as hell, really as her only defense.

I think it was always clear to me from his books that he liked riding more than he was actively affectionate towards the horses. In fact, I find that attitude pretty pervasive around professionals, such that I actively look for pros that (still) like horses when choosing an instructor. So maybe that’s why it didn’t seem disqualifying.

Someone mentioned that he wrote about the sweater incident (girl wearing a pink sweater, forced to get off the horse and roll in the dirt) in his book, which shocks me that he would want to share that. I had been looking for the account written by a spectator that I think I read here, back in the day. I wasn’t willing to give him money to read the book but I admit to my curiosity about what else is in there.

Again, his statement that “Any allegations that suggest I have acted in ways that are harmful to any individual, the broader equestrian community, and sport that I love dearly are false and hurtful.” is so obviously far from the truth to all of us. And how ironic that he would then say, words said about him are hurtful.

[oneequestrienne]

@snaffle1987

Lets not forget that Rob Gage’s suspension and verdict set on him by SS ultimately happened because he wrote a letter to the minor who then reported him, admitting to the sexual misconduct. His case was not an act of he said, she said and SS ultimately sided with the female victim, not at all. He was caught admitting to sexual misconduct with a minor (regardless of how many years ago it happened), he was reported, and the right ruling was placed upon him. He then committed suicide. For all we know, the victim could’ve been compiling her evidence and taking it to the courts against him, or the police which further fueled the result to end his life. That type of conviction is even more life altering than a SS ban.

There are other posters here and on facebook who have stated that they have been a part of an SS investigation due to false reports/rumor mill. That entire scenario can be very hurtful for all involved. But they told their honest side of the story to investigators and the investigation was dropped once investigators found no probable cause or significant evidence to substantiate the report. If SS was running-a-muck and falsely suspending individuals based on hearsay, this type of result wouldn’t be the case.

SS does not investigate just the victim and there is a process these investigators must follow. I am not one to tote government organizations and government control. But these investigators are not individuals pulled off the street corner and trained for the job. These are people investigating murders and high violence crime for police departments and such in previous jobs. SS has given a voice to the victim who was previously silenced by their abuser and organization. A report was made, and an investigation ensued. How can anyone label that a “witch hunt”. How can anyone justify stating to leave GM alone on the basis that he said these accusations happened 50 years ago. Does 50 years ago make the crime irrelevant? Does the fact that you had a positive relationship or experience with GM eliminate any wrongdoing of his? Murderers had/have friends too, people who couldn’t believe they committed those crimes, does that mean they were good people and not murderers?

I have faith in the system and that a thorough investigation was performed on both sides. I am sure those details are well known to both the victim and GM as well as USEF. Why would anyone believe that the investigation into GM was one taken lightly, especially considering his stature in the industry going into this?

Just to clarify. In the case of RG, you are not accurate in your description of the process. There are multiple victims who came forward and reported him to Safesport, not one. The 5 women, including Hillary Ridland, who spoke at the Oaks are not even all those who spoke to Safesport and I personally know of others who did not go to Safesport. Yes, RG put something in writing, but that isn’t the sum total of the case against him. He was going to lose his appeal. He knew it.

[Denali6298]

@Tiramit

Sitting in the stands at a GM clinic costs money. Each attendee is supposed to have a ticket. You or someone else paid GM each time you attended, meaning that he made money off of you 8-9 times after you decided he was a bully and touched a child in an inappropriate way.

This is my point. Thinking a person is a bully or sexual abuser or horse killer or horse drugger or horse selling crook or _______ while still financially supporting, not reporting, said person is not only hurting people / horses, it’s hurting our sport.

SS is an aftermath solution. It issues out a ruling after the victims come forward. AFTER the abuse. Why aren’t we stopping these monsters before there are victimS? Why did so many people let them carry on for decades? It wasn’t that people didn’t know about abuse. It wasn’t because the people in charge are too powerful… The Catholic Church was taken down. The USEF is a speck in comparison.

I’m sickened by the SS rulings. I’m sickened by the division within its membership ranks and the lists posted online of who’s on what side. Yes, I’m participating here and I blame myself for my small role in the above, but I’m looking to the future and will be sure to take gossip seriously.

Ya know what? People can say all day long what they would when confronted with a situation like what @dannyboy described. Who are you to criticize? This is what I don’t get. It’s along the lines of people saying “well why didn’t they report it when it happened?”

I am not sicked by the rulings. I was waiting for this when Safe Sport became law.

A father of one of Nasser’s victims suicided after the story broke because he didn’t believe his daughter when she told him about the abuse. He made her apologize to him.

Ya’ll need to understand that it’s easy to say what we would do without being in the situation to do it. As an adult I KNOW what I would do because I did it. As a kid. Man… I know I didn’t speak up because I couldn’t understand it.

If g-you are sickened by this then I suggest on carefully choosing your company wisely. Carefully choose who you do business with. Do what is morally right for you.

[oldernewbie]

Just for some perspective, read what a survivor from another sport has to say about the whole mess. If, after you read this, you think SS is a crock, I submit you haven’t got a brain OR a heart.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/07/s…section=Sports

[kmwines]

Any statements from Anne Kursinski about the GM ruling? Interesting to hear her take on a mentor/friend getting set down after her Jimmy Williams’ revelations and coming forward with that.

[oneequestrienne]

@ReinerPrincess

It has been YEARS since I posted in here and I felt compelled to come here to say that this thread is helping me get through the days. Facebook is toxic with the denials and victim-shaming and bullying. This thread gives me hope and life. I am astonished at the amount of people that have - for some inane reason - chosen this hill to die on. I have literally had to unfriend many, many people who are completely willing to throw the entire SS process and the accusers under the bus, and who are willing to twist themselves into knots to defend sexual predators. Not to mention the ‘heroes’ I looked up to as a kid / teen who I’m really having to sadly write off as they step up to defend GM. It is clear just how important this is because obviously the sport cannot and will not police itself. Just thank you all for being thoughtful and discussing this meticulously and intelligently, even when you all don’t completely agree.

Stay away from this stuff on FB. I unfriended every single horse show friend who supported RG, participated in victim shaming or blindly attacked Safesport. (Having questions or concerns about the process in an honest and sincere way is fine, that’s not what I’m talking about.) it was a hard thing to do because I grew up in the Cali h/j world and FB was my connection to a lot of that. I don’t regret it at all. AND, the benefit is that it gave me more time to do what I intended when I joined FB in the first place: enjoy catching up with my friends and see how they and their families are doing.

[roseymare]

@Dr. Doolittle

This has been a loooong thread and I finally got through it, wanting to add my $0.2 but wanting to read all the responses first.

I did the hunters for awhile “back in the day” (started out in Pony Club, and then later returned to my roots and am now an eventer), and there were always whispers about some BNTs back then - but everyone “looked the other way.”

I was never in a program, did my own thing (still do!), so these were all just rumors without substantiation. It was a different time (the 70’s), but does that make it okay to sweep abuse under the rug because “it happened years ago?” THANK GOD it is now being uncovered by an official organization tasked with revealing the predators and sanctioning them; it’s been a long time coming, but better late than never.

I was in Pony Club with Robert Dover and later boarded at the same barn, Gee, Robert. I have always thought better of you…I read his FB posts and am SMH :no:

I am particularly puzzled and rather disgusted by the defense of GM among SO many BNTs and BNRs; their protestations are all over my FB feed (I have well over 600 FB friends and 90% of them are horsepeople), really?? Is this actually about SS, or is it more about “there but for the grace of God go I”? Hmmmm.

They are quite vocal in their attacks on SS, and like a few posters on this thread, seem to misunderstand the whole “guilt and innocence” thing; are confused about the “law” vs an “organization” formed to protect minors and “police” its MEMBERS; jump on the “but it happened 30 years ago!” bandwagon; insist that “without HARD EVIDENCE” he is clearly just being railroaded", etc.

Good grief.

I have my own GM story, which I have kept to myself for many years because he has SO many fans (and apologists) on this BB; the whole naked emperor thing (and his $hit doesn’t stink because “he’s the George.”), so I didn’t want to get flamed or pounced on by his minions.

About 15 or 20 years ago I audited one of his clinics, it was held in an indoor at a fairly well-known hunter barn (which hosts shows), if I were to tell you the location its identity would be pretty clear, so I will withhold that as being irrelevant.

I was sitting on hay bales with a small group of middle-aged women, giggling and whispering (I doubt they rode seriously based on their conversation), but they were all hero-worshipers of “The George”. I just wished they would be quiet so I could hear the clinic!, hoping to glean a bit or learn a new exercise.

The clinic had about 5 riders in each group, and there were two groups (IIRC), the second group had a bay mare ridden by a young woman; she was having some issues, so George hopped on.

(Despite my disgust for him as a person, I have always given him props for getting on his students’ horses; he has my admiration as a rider for doing that, and for pretty much NOTHING else.)

One of the exercises was a line down the long side, followed by an oxer off a turn with a longish runup. The mare was a bit sticky to the oxer with her rider, so George got on to “tune her up”, rode to the oxer with conviction, mare STOPPED suddenly and abruptly (a dirty stop), and he went flying over her head, landing somewhat inelegantly on the other side. Of course his “helmet” popped off, being “an item of apparel” with no chin strap.

He got up, mad as a wet hen, shook himself off, picked up the bat, went over to the mare (who was standing quietly on the takeoff side, reins now in her owner’s hands), and beat the crap out of her; screaming: “WHY DIDN’T YOU TELL ME SHE HAD A DIRTY STOP!!!, THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT, YOU IDIOT!!!” to the girl.

Wow.

It certainly shut everyone up (including the chattering auditors), and there was dead silence. The girl, now in tears, apologized repeatedly. The mare, now very tense with her head up in the air, was remounted - the oxer was lowered significantly, and she was beaten over it several times. Then the girl was put back on. She did the lowered oxer a few times and then called it a day.

NO horseman, GM…A spoiled, egotistical narcissist who has gotten away with bad and abusive behavior for decades!, just because he is a very “BNT” who NO ONE has taken to task.

It’s about damn time.

I like to think it possible that mare never had a dirty stop before or after. 😀