George Morris on the SS list

[HLMom]

@Ghazzu

I don’t believe child molesters are a protected class.

Yeah, that’s not the argument. I’m going to let this go because the potential legal arguments (about due process; notice of prohibited conduct when conduct was legal at the time it occurred; statutes of limitations etc.) are complex, and I honestly don’t know how they will turn out.

Some day challenges to SafeSport will be raised in civil court, and we will all see how they turn out. I don’t know whether GM will be the person to raise those challenges or not. He is not the plaintiff any attorney would want, that’s for sure!

And yes, we all want child molesters removed from sport. SS needs to have its ducks in a row to make sure its decisions will be upheld.

[HLMom]

@McGurk

@HLMom,

Yes, the OJ Simpson tactic of dedicating himself to finding the real killers.

Ha ha, exactly!

[aristokat]

@FiSk123

SS can not investigate deceased individuals. IIRC Jimmy Williams was banned by the USEF.

Yes, that was the point of the post I quoted. That yes, they could, and they did. I already knew the answer.

This was the whole post.

@specifiedcupcake

The Bernie info definitely piqued my interest… But like. If he “goes down” as part of the fallout from someone’s investigation… they can probably still ban him from USEF anyway? Like you don’t have to be an active member to be told “actually you can’t be a member.” Be another interesting question to pose to SS.

@snaffle1987

I believe they can. They listed Jimmy Williams even though he was deceased

[FiSk123]

@aristokat

Yes, that was the point of the post I quoted. That yes, they could, and they did. I already knew the answer.

My apologies - I was speed reading the most recent pages and I missed your original point :lol:

[Happyhack]

@Farhills123

He will absolutely fight it. He HAS been fighting it for the last 2 years. He will make it about a constitutional violation of some kind. His legacy is very important to him and he is a fighter. It isn’t in his nature to just go gently into the good night.

This is what interests me. If there was a constitutional violation of some kind, I would have thought we would already have heard about expensive lawyers representing people in other sports, trying to prove just that. (I have googled around and can’t find much - though google isn’t infallible of course.)

[pds]

@Farhills123

He will absolutely fight it. He HAS been fighting it for the last 2 years. He will make it about a constitutional violation of some kind. His legacy is very important to him and he is a fighter. It isn’t in his nature to just go gently into the good night.

His legacy can’t be that important to him given what he wrote about himself and how he has conducted himself over the years.

Our sport will be dealing with his damage for years. He needs to take responsibility for his actions, and quietly fade away.

[Irish_Ei_s]

@HLMom

This is for folks who are interested in the legal questions surrounding USEF/SS. It is not a defense of GM, nor is it a critique of SS’s mission.

People keep saying “USEF is a private club. It can do whatever it wants.” I am skeptical that courts would treat it as a private club. See the article below. Now, the fact that courts might treat USEF as NOT being a private club is only the first question. The next question is, what legal obligations (in addition to non-discrimination) would flow from this determination?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB124588111858449559

Some golf courses, country clubs and social groups long have discriminated against certain types of people, usually women and minorities. Private organizations sometimes presume that they can exclude whomever they want, no questions asked.

And in one sense, they are right. Ironically, the more selective a club is, the more it is considered to be truly private and thus protected against antidiscrimination laws. In other words, a small, all-male group of stamp collectors who meet in a private home aren’t unlawfully discriminating by not accepting women.

But clubs that presume they are private frequently turn out not to be in the eyes of the law in some states.

“Over the last 20 years, societal pressures have led to a steady narrowing of what qualifies as a private organization, free from antidiscrimination laws,” says Robert Duston, a Washington attorney who specializes in defending discrimination cases.

Take the Mill River Club Inc., a country club in Oyster Bay, N.Y., that considers itself private. Marc Wenger, the club’s attorney, says Mill River is selective in choosing members, picking them partially on the basis of religion with the stated goal of achieving a balance of Jews and Christians.

Club member Joseph Pezza filed a complaint against the club in 2002, claiming the religious-diversity policy embarrassed him because “it puts unnecessary labels on people,” according to court testimony.

Earlier this year, a New York court ruled that the club wasn’t actually “private,” and that its religious quota system violated state law.

The court based its decision on evidence that included the fact that nonmembers took tennis lessons and attended social events at the club. The court also noted that the club has more than 100 members – a factor that is relevant under New York state law in deciding whether a group is a “place of public accommodation.”

My Father in Law was instrumental in founding Mill River

[dannyboy]

@FairHills123

He will absolutely fight it. He HAS been fighting it for the last 2 years.

I absolutely agree that he will fight it. But what’s that about the last 2 years part? I’m way out of the USEF loop and don’t know what’s been going on.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@pds

His legacy can’t be that important to him given what he wrote about himself and how he has conducted himself over the years.

He needs to take responsibility for his actions, and quietly fade away.

This is a narcissist behavior or everyone has been saying he is a god for so long he actually believes it.

[ladyj79]

@pds

His legacy can’t be that important to him given what he wrote about himself and how he has conducted himself over the years.

Our sport will be dealing with his damage for years. He needs to take responsibility for his actions, and quietly fade away.

Oh no, he’s proud of much of that because it demonstrates that he was sexually and professionally desirable and too big to fail, as they say.

[Palm_Beach]

@Pennywell Bay

So here is the difference.

Jumpers = Olympic sport
Jumpers = USEF or FEI which have some sort of shared banned thing? (please chime in)
USEF= must comply with SS 2017 law enacted by Congress

So it isn’t as much it is a club. It is a organization that funnels teams/members to the Olympics. The law of 2017 says USEF must comply with SS.

Exactly. Clubs, organizations, etc have no legal authority and cannot put people in jail. But they can make up their own rules and kick voluntary members out if the member violates the rules. Every time you sign the entry blank you are agreeing to abide by the rules.

There are many riders who are not USEF members. I grew up in MD and now live in VA and there are lots of local show circuits that are not USEF affilated/governed and many trainers and barns who regularly do these circuits. One circuit was so popular that adults rode on one day of the weekend and juniors another, and adults got finished around 5 PM, juniors at 8 PM, and the ring steward kept things humming right along. There is nothing preventing George Morris from setting up shop with local circuits.

And he’s worried about his reputation? After proudly claiming in his autobiography to have sex with 10,000 people and counting, and giving reserpine to a horse and having a positive test and suspension while on the Drugs and Medication Committee? Puhleeese.

[541hunter]

@HLMom

Yeah, that’s not the argument. I’m going to let this go because the potential legal arguments (about due process; notice of prohibited conduct when conduct was legal at the time it occurred; statutes of limitations etc.) are complex, and I honestly don’t know how they will turn out.

Some day challenges to SafeSport will be raised in civil court, and we will all see how they turn out. I don’t know whether GM will be the person to raise those challenges or not. He is not the plaintiff any attorney would want, that’s for sure!

And yes, we all want child molesters removed from sport. SS needs to have its ducks in a row to make sure its decisions will be upheld.

I kinda think the fact that people can and will challenge Safe Sport rulings in civil court is a good thing. It’s a layer of protection that exists outside of the internal process which lots of people complaining seem to conveniently forget. Safe Sport lays out very clearly in the Code that no party in any complaint process is waiving their right to a case in court, civil or criminal. If you have truly been wronged in the Safe Sport sanctioning process you can go stand before a judge and make your case in court. Well, I mean, you can do that even if you HAVEN’T been wronged, it’s totally your right, but then lots of the details will be public record so it would be kinda dumb to do so if you really did what Safe Sport says you did. But the point is that no investigative process is infallible, which is why the right to appeals and so on is important.

Anyway. I will reiterate that I am NOT a lawyer, do not have any kind of legal training, willing to be told I’m missing a key point, etc.

[Jealoushe]

Judging by the resume of those who work at SS, I would think they have gone over every little hole that might be present in a rebuttle case. Plus they have already had some and seen any changes needing to be made. I can’t imagine GM has a leg to stand on, by the NYT article there were many more people who were victims and I’m sure we haven’t been told the half of it.

[Palm_Beach]

Nonpublic schools kick kids out for behavior issues all the time. There is no due process, they get fed up with behavior, or simply do not tolerate some things like drug dealing, and ban the kid. They don’t always have to report it to the police, although I think they usually report things like drugs to the police.

[Bristol_Bay]

@trakehners

I know there’s other discussion going on here, but I just want to comment on this because it really hasn’t been all that long since I was a minor (well, okay, it’s been a little while, but compared to a lot of people commenting on the GM/RG/general SafeSport situation across social media, I’m a very new adult) and I have to say that I’m in agreement with what SonnysMom has said here, and also that I think anyone who claims that SafeSport and the MAAP policies are going to prevent the formation of positive, supportive relationships between minors and adults and should thus not exist is so unbelievably wrong.

I have a very, very close relationship with one of the history teachers from my high school. He’s my friend, he’s practically my second father, and I truly mean it when I say that I really don’t know what would’ve happened to me if he hadn’t come into my life when he did. He was the voice of reason outside of my family through my teenage years and, to this day, nearly a decade after I first got to know him, he’s still someone I go to for advice and support when I need it.

I didn’t have his phone number until the year after I graduated (after I turned 18). We weren’t Facebook friends until after I was no longer a student (this was before I turned 18 because I’m pretty young for my class, but only by ~a month. He and another history teacher have a long-standing tradition of accepting friend requests from students as soon as they’re handed their diplomas at graduation, as it’s no longer a violation of school policy once we’re alumni).

We had many, many one-on-one conversations when I was in high school (always prompted by me), and it was actually my discussions with him that helped me get to a place where I felt safe and accepted enough to go get the help I needed at the time (isn’t it funny how adults can, you know, not take advantage of incredibly vulnerable kids/teenagers and instead provide them with a support system?). We also always had those conversations on a bench down the hall from the history office, where we were perfectly in the line of sight from the office and students would regularly pass through, but where it was also private enough that I could talk about what was bothering me without being afraid of my classmates overhearing things that I really wasn’t ready to admit to the world at large at the time. If I wanted to set up a time to talk to him, I walked into the history office and asked, no emailing or texting required.

As an adult, I’m a semi-regular fixture at his house (we do a lot of jam sessions with a rather interesting group of people that he’s collected as friends over the years) and I’ve gotten to know his family (his wife was actually on my thesis committee in college). He’s my friend, he’s my family, and I was able to form this relationship with him even as we were operating under rules that are really no different than anything that SafeSport is asking of us. Those boundaries were things that I never even questioned. It was just the way things were, and it let me develop an absolutely crucial relationship in a safe way. Might there be an adjustment period for the equestrian community to get used to operating like this? Sure, but I think the growing pains are worth it and I think that in five or ten years, kids won’t even question that this is just how things work and that’ll be that.

As a retired teacher, I want to thank you for this valuable contribution to this discussion. I wish I could like it a thousand times.

[Bristol_Bay]

@Jealoushe

Judging by the resume of those who work at SS, I would think they have gone over every little hole that might be present in a rebuttle case. Plus they have already had some and seen any changes needing to be made. I can’t imagine GM has a leg to stand on, by the NYT article there were many more people who were victims and I’m sure we haven’t been told the half of it.

I have a feeling that when the appeals process has played out, there will be many more people willing to go public.

[Angela_Freda]

@dannyboy

@FairHills123

I absolutely agree that he will fight it. But what’s that about the last 2 years part? I’m way out of the USEF loop and don’t know what’s been going on.

That 2 years I think refers to the SS process of investigation that’s been underway for 18 months, or more.
Heck, the one guy accused him in 2012… then recanted. So really in some way, as under the radar as it may have been, this has been going on since then hasn’t it?

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@trakehners

I know there’s other discussion going on here, but I just want to comment on this because it really hasn’t been all that long since I was a minor (well, okay, it’s been a little while, but compared to a lot of people commenting on the GM/RG/general SafeSport situation across social media, I’m a very new adult) and I have to say that I’m in agreement with what SonnysMom has said here, and also that I think anyone who claims that SafeSport and the MAAP policies are going to prevent the formation of positive, supportive relationships between minors and adults and should thus not exist is so unbelievably wrong.

I have a very, very close relationship with one of the history teachers from my high school. He’s my friend, he’s practically my second father, and I truly mean it when I say that I really don’t know what would’ve happened to me if he hadn’t come into my life when he did. He was the voice of reason outside of my family through my teenage years and, to this day, nearly a decade after I first got to know him, he’s still someone I go to for advice and support when I need it.

I didn’t have his phone number until the year after I graduated (after I turned 18). We weren’t Facebook friends until after I was no longer a student (this was before I turned 18 because I’m pretty young for my class, but only by ~a month. He and another history teacher have a long-standing tradition of accepting friend requests from students as soon as they’re handed their diplomas at graduation, as it’s no longer a violation of school policy once we’re alumni).

We had many, many one-on-one conversations when I was in high school (always prompted by me), and it was actually my discussions with him that helped me get to a place where I felt safe and accepted enough to go get the help I needed at the time (isn’t it funny how adults can, you know, not take advantage of incredibly vulnerable kids/teenagers and instead provide them with a support system?). We also always had those conversations on a bench down the hall from the history office, where we were perfectly in the line of sight from the office and students would regularly pass through, but where it was also private enough that I could talk about what was bothering me without being afraid of my classmates overhearing things that I really wasn’t ready to admit to the world at large at the time. If I wanted to set up a time to talk to him, I walked into the history office and asked, no emailing or texting required.

As an adult, I’m a semi-regular fixture at his house (we do a lot of jam sessions with a rather interesting group of people that he’s collected as friends over the years) and I’ve gotten to know his family (his wife was actually on my thesis committee in college). He’s my friend, he’s my family, and I was able to form this relationship with him even as we were operating under rules that are really no different than anything that SafeSport is asking of us. Those boundaries were things that I never even questioned. It was just the way things were, and it let me develop an absolutely crucial relationship in a safe way. Might there be an adjustment period for the equestrian community to get used to operating like this? Sure, but I think the growing pains are worth it and I think that in five or ten years, kids won’t even question that this is just how things work and that’ll be that.

Thanks for sharing this detailed, perspective. It was mentioned as part of the Rob Gage thread that someone should write an OpEd and submit it the Chronicle that gives a perspective about MAAP guidelines which is different from the one they published recently written by a 17 year old who was advocating for relaxing those guidelines.

Your story about how this high school teacher managed their role in a careful, thoughtful way as a supportive adult in your life is a great perspective. Keep sharing it

[poltroon]

For those who have said that SafeSport should be transparent and publish dates and ages… note that the dates alone made it pretty easy to guess who one of the claimants was in this case. Indeed, I did a little searching and at first thought that Soresi was too young to be that claimant based on an article listing his age that was written in his 40s, then found his true age and went, “Oh.” Took only a few minutes of clumsy investigation on my part and this started before I was born, on the opposite side of the country from me.

If they gave us another set of dates we’d know likely who else spoke to them.

Their policies say that the accused has the names of all claimants. That seems intimidating enough.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@poltroon

For those who have said that SafeSport should be transparent and publish dates and ages… note that the dates alone made it pretty easy to guess who one of the claimants was in this case. Indeed, I did a little searching and at first thought that Soresi was too young to be that claimant based on an article listing his age that was written in his 40s, then found his true age and went, “Oh.” Took only a few minutes of clumsy investigation on my part and this started before I was born, on the opposite side of the country from me.

If they gave us another set of dates we’d know likely who else spoke to them.

Their policies say that the accused has the names of all claimants. That seems intimidating enough.

Exactly.

Add to this that per Kristin Hardin’s post, GHM and some long time loyalists of his reached out and THREATENED her former in laws. I don’t truly understand why… but my assumption is to prevent her from cooperating with the ongoing investigation in any way.

Michael Hart’s family members were quoted in the NYT article. JS has been clear in published accounts that his brother encouraged him to come forward as well. I really hope other people out there who are either related to victims, or once had a connection or close relationship with a victim reach out to Safe Sport and add testimony now. Be a voice for people who are intimidated into silence out of fear of personal and professional consequences… or who are silent because the whole experience set them up on a tragic life journey that ended in an early death. That seems to have been the case for Michael Hart. Reading his family’s feelings regarding justice… it made my heart hurt.