George Morris on the SS list

[poltroon]

The idea that only kids with irresponsible or inattentive parents are molested or raped is not only dead wrong, it’s also a factor in why these crimes don’t get reported.

They can happen to ANYBODY. Just like anyone can have money stolen. Don’t fool yourself into thinking you and your family are safe based upon your superior virtue.

[dannyboy]

@ clerkofcourts I’m re-reading George’s book right now (I bought and read it when it first came out). The first time through, I was unaware of the timing, that there was an investigation in the works even then.

What strikes me this time around about it is that it’s intended as a warning. He recites name after name of rich and powerful clients, all of whom loved George and were “good friends”. I think it’s “a touch me if you dare, but look at who’s behind me” kind of statement.

[Tiramit]

@poltroon If that’s directed at me, then please look at what I wrote. I said couldn’t or didn’t protect their kids. Anything other than those two suggests that the parent was in on it.

Anyone who was told by their child that something as horrible as molestation occurred and then didn’t act? I stand by my statement that the person was cowardly and willfully negligent. They did not act because, after weighing the risks, it was decided it was in the parent’s best interest to do nothing. A reaction of telling the child that he or she is wrong, or misunderstood, or punishing then forcing said child to apologize seems to be less about the child and more about the parent.

[Belowthesalt]

@YankeeDuchess

1. Please don’t abbreviate same sex as SS in this conversation.
2. Back when sodomy was illegal, I assume that the law applied to heterosexual as well as homosexual couples.
   So what is your point?

Oops. Just didn’t think that, of course, that could be taken as SafeSport, though in context it is clear what I meant.

The point was just a generic one that those who are most opposed to same sex marriage are usually the ones/like the ones who originally wanted anti-sodomy laws, and that those are very often types who think that “sodomy” is ONLY a practice of same sex couples.

[arnikalm]

@sixteenhands

Why haven’t you reported this person to authorities or safe sport?
I apologize if you have answered this question already.

This is for Gainer. Apologies if you’ve already answered this. If the trainer is a registered sex offender, it is illegal to be in a position where he/she supervises children or minors. Regardless whether the trainer is a member of USEF. Hoping that you have reported this person. Even anonymously.
ETA: that I meant reported to law enforcement or Child Protective services, not to USEF.

[poltroon]

@Tiramit

@poltroon If that’s directed at me, then please look at what I wrote. I said couldn’t or didn’t protect their kids. Anything other than those two suggests that the parent was in on it.

Anyone who was told by their kid that something as horrible as molestation occurred and then didn’t act? I stand by my statement that the person was cowardly, willfully negligent, and weighed the risks and decided not to act.

If it had been directed at you I would have quoted you ; instead it was a reaction to the implications in multiple comments over time, implications that I think even the writers don’t always notice. Stuff internalized deep in our lizard brains.

Being a parent is hard and even your latter statement maybe isn’t 100% productive. For example, the Nassar parent who committed suicide having realized an unintentional parenting fail.

I think it’s hard to know from the outside what the choices look like to the people in them, sometimes.

But I agree making it easier for everyone to speak up and stop abuse early is key.

[no.stirrups]

Once upon a time I became aware of a child (15 yo, I think he was, definitely not older) who was on an extended road trip with his “boyfriend,” a professional truck driver.
I assumed the child had run away, as he had been known to have done previously, so I called his mom with the information. She was annoyed with me for acting as though something was wrong.
So I called child protective services, and they also didn’t understand why I thought this was a problem. I said to them that the child was being raped and they asked, “how do you know it’s rape?”
Shocked, I spoke with a friend who is a pastor about what I could do about getting the child to safety. He thought I was asking how I could make the kid straight.

In short, no one considered this a crime. My concern for GM is that it’s entirely possible that when he did whatever he did he may have had no reason to consider it a crime. It may not have been considered “wrong.” If that were the case, then I would be concerned about judging him by today’s standards.

FYI, “once upon a time” in my story was 2016.

[arnikalm]

@4LeafCloverFarm

I’m so sorry you weren’t believed either, @Jenerationx. I am certain this is (unfortunately) STILL not uncommon, even in 2019. What a sad state of affairs and poor reflection on our society as a whole that is. It just makes me want to cry.

{{{hugs}}} to you @Jenerationx and the others who have posted personal stories. After lurking in this thread for days, ya’ll helped me be brave enough to post mine.

As an older woman who was abused at the age of 4 and never spoke about it until my own children were grown, I’m sorry that neither of you were believed. I’ve worked with traumatized and sex trafficked girls and that is not an uncommon experience. ☹

When I finally opened up about my experience, I found that my little sister had also been abused by the same neighbor. She told our mother who refused to believe her as well, as horrifying as that is. She struggles with that to this day. I was very open about the possibility of abuse with my children and luckily I was able to find a balance between caution and strength for them and they have become strong, independent adults, without our trauma. Here’s hoping that society becomes more accepting of victims and less of perpetrators.

[Tiramit]

@poltroon.

IIRC, the Nassar parent who committed suicide didn’t believe his daughter. She told him time and again that it was happening and he became angry with her for accusing Nassar. At that point, yeah, he does need to own some of the guilt.

[skydy]

@dannyboy

@ clerkofcourts I’m re-reading George’s book right now (I bought and read it when it first came out). The first time through, I was unaware of the timing, that there was an investigation in the works even then.

What strikes me this time around about it is that it’s intended as a warning. He recites name after name of rich and powerful clients, all of whom loved George and were “good friends”. I think it’s “a touch me if you dare, but look at who’s behind me” kind of statement.

I read the book when it first came out, borrowed from the library. I was not impressed. His bragging was embarrassing. Most people who are comfortable with themselves don’t feel the need to name drop. If he was trying to impress the investigators with the people he has worked for, he must be deeply disappointed that his teaching of wealthy clients didn’t impress.

Now that his behavior has been publicized, he’ll find that after an initial show of disbelief, most people will not associate with him.

[cloudyandcallie]

@Ghazzu

Are you telling me that you believe that men suffer?

lol I always told the grumpy guys at the courthouse in Atlanta that they suffered from sperm buildup because they always said when I was grumpy that I needed to get laid. Obviously they did not know the abilities of my men.

btw those of us in the 60s not only marched against LBJ and his war, we participated in a little event called the sexual revolution. Straight and gay, all were accepted in Sanfrancisco and Atlanta and Savannah. My boss in Atlanta did not enforce the sodomy laws for consenting adults. All child molestors of all sexes went to prison. Molesting little boys or little girls destroys their lives.

[mvp]

@wanderlust

I would quadruple like this if I could. And every trainer who has stuck up for him with morale outrage about the safesport process is off my clinic/trainer list as well.

Yup. The buck has got to stop with the people spending the money. But I am confident that things will change and improve if the customers insist on it.

[fargaloo]

WRT “it was the times” defence…

There is a huge difference between things that were acceptable and common in a previous era, and things that were not acceptable but people (especially well-off white men) got away with. It’s actually not that hard to spot the difference.

Many things that were common and acceptable 50 years ago but would not be acceptable now include:

• smoking while pregnant;
• keeping horses in standing stalls most of the day;
• throwing your trash out the car window;
• letting your kids bounce around in the back of the station wagon instead of wearring seatbelts;
• letting your unfixed dog wander around the neighbourhood on its own;
• leaving your baby in a carriage outside the store while you did your shopping;
• etc. etc. etc.

You can tell they were widely acceptable because no one HID that they did those things. You see it in family snapshots; people tell anecdotes with these details, etc. There has been NO time in the last 50 years that 30, 40, 50-year-old men proudly squired around 14-year-olds and introduced them as romantic partners to their neighbours, their bosses, their great aunts. Sexual predators took pains then (as they do now) to coerce and shame their victims into silence. Why was 4LeafCloverFarm forced to apologize to her neighbour, if claiming that a grown man kissed a young girl wasn’t thought to be a terrible accusation?

In the 80’s I was propositioned by a couple of male professors. I wasn’t being asked to be a “girlfriend”; I wasn’t expecting that the offer would include meeting the Dean for cocktails and strolling hand in hand across campus. I knew that if I said yes it would have been some version of a grotty motel and “please keep your mouth shut”. They knew damn well that what they were doing was wrong and against the academic code; they just thought they could get away with it. The culture started to change when they stopped getting away with it.

“OK, it’s wrong – but everyone was doing it!” isn’t a defence that works with your mom, your HR department or the law.

[mvp]

@vineyridge

The whole world was different for baby boomers and earlier. Initiation into sexual activity was very different. Sex was not flaunted into everyone’s face all the time. Popular music wasn’t about sex, but romantic love; books and movies that were overtly sexual were banned, and only read in hiding. America still believed in a culture of self-reliance, and it was up to the individual to learn to protect him or her self. Growing up was the process of learning to be independent. There were all sorts of more or less accepted behaviors, like “playing doctor”, learning about the physical differences between boys and girls, and sexual behaviors, when older, that didn’t end up with penetration. Boys were completely unprotected in laws on sexual conduct; in fact, boys who were initiated into sex by an older adult were considered lucky. Sometimes this was with prostitutes, and sometimes not. Mental consequences were not considered if there was no physical harm, and, often, without physical harm conduct wasn’t considered worth talking about. All of this changed with the pill for women and the acceptance of homosexuality for men.

Traditionally, males are/have always been the initiators of activity leading to the sex act, one suspects because of the ever present risk of pregnancy. Women’s sexuality was repressed for the same reason. Out of wedlock children have condemned the woman to ostracism by most cultures throughout history. As as been generally recognized, marriage was not about sex but about property and continuing the male line. Woman was just a womb and a vehicle for satisfying male sexual and financial needs. Any love followed marriage and rarely preceded it. The world was simply different.

And, let’s face it, physically, the need for sexual release is very different for men and women.

We are at a point in time where, in about sixty years, we are changing human culture that has been almost universal for thousands of years. Fallout is inevitable.

I think you overestimate the universality of “human culture” in all times and places, as well as its stasis.

[Raine]

@fargaloo

WRT “it was the times” defence…

There is a huge difference between things that were acceptable and common in a previous era, and things that were not acceptable but people (especially well-off white men) got away with. It’s actually not that hard to spot the difference.

Many things that were common and acceptable 50 years ago but would not be acceptable now include:

• smoking while pregnant;
• keeping horses in standing stalls most of the day;
• throwing your trash out the car window;
• letting your kids bounce around in the back of the station wagon instead of wearring seatbelts;
• letting your unfixed dog wander around the neighbourhood on its own;
• leaving your baby in a carriage outside the store while you did your shopping;
• etc. etc. etc.

You can tell they were widely acceptable because no one HID that they did those things. You see it in family snapshots; people tell anecdotes with these details, etc. There has been NO time in the last 50 years that 30, 40, 50-year-old men proudly squired around 14-year-olds and introduced them as romantic partners to their neighbours, their bosses, their great aunts. Sexual predators took pains then (as they do now) to coerce and shame their victims into silence. Why was 4LeafCloverFarm forced to apologize to her neighbour, if claiming that a grown man kissed a young girl wasn’t thought to be a terrible accusation?

In the 80’s I was propositioned by a couple of male professors. I wasn’t being asked to be a “girlfriend”; I wasn’t expecting that the offer would include meeting the Dean for cocktails and strolling hand in hand across campus. I knew that if I said yes it would have been some version of a grotty motel and “please keep your mouth shut”. They knew damn well that what they were doing was wrong and against the academic code; they just thought they could get away with it. The culture started to change when they stopped getting away with it.

“OK, it’s wrong – but everyone was doing it!” isn’t a defence that works with your mom, your HR department or the law.

One of the best posts yet!!! Exactly exactly exactly!

[HLMom]

@fargaloo

WRT “it was the times” defence…

There is a huge difference between things that were acceptable and common in a previous era, and things that were not acceptable but people (especially well-off white men) got away with. It’s actually not that hard to spot the difference.

Many things that were common and acceptable 50 years ago but would not be acceptable now include:

• smoking while pregnant;
• keeping horses in standing stalls most of the day;
• throwing your trash out the car window;
• letting your kids bounce around in the back of the station wagon instead of wearring seatbelts;
• letting your unfixed dog wander around the neighbourhood on its own;
• leaving your baby in a carriage outside the store while you did your shopping;
• etc. etc. etc.

You can tell they were widely acceptable because no one HID that they did those things. You see it in family snapshots; people tell anecdotes with these details, etc. There has been NO time in the last 50 years that 30, 40, 50-year-old men proudly squired around 14-year-olds and introduced them as romantic partners to their neighbours, their bosses, their great aunts. Sexual predators took pains then (as they do now) to coerce and shame their victims into silence. Why was 4LeafCloverFarm forced to apologize to her neighbour, if claiming that a grown man kissed a young girl wasn’t thought to be a terrible accusation?

In the 80’s I was propositioned by a couple of male professors. I wasn’t being asked to be a “girlfriend”; I wasn’t expecting that the offer would include meeting the Dean for cocktails and strolling hand in hand across campus. I knew that if I said yes it would have been some version of a grotty motel and “please keep your mouth shut”. They knew damn well that what they were doing was wrong and against the academic code; they just thought they could get away with it. The culture started to change when they stopped getting away with it.

“OK, it’s wrong – but everyone was doing it!” isn’t a defence that works with your mom, your HR department or the law.

I think your post is quite insightful in regard to what conduct people hid, versus what conduct they flaunted in public.

But your reference to being propositioned by male professors and the college academic code actually shows just how much things have actually changed. Until very recently, relationships between professors and students were NOT prohibited at the vast majority of colleges. Here’s an article and relevant quote:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/05/24/academe-sees-new-wave-faculty-student-relationship-restrictions-era-me-too

Richards co-wrote a 2014 study of 55 institutions’ student-faculty dating policies saying that consensual relationships were viewed in previous generations as "private matters” and ignored by administrators, except where harassment was alleged. Fear of legal liability and increasing acknowledgement of academic power structures changed that, leading institutions to adopt a mix of policies regarding these relationships. That mix led to subsequent “confusion” about community norms, however, according to the study.

At the time, within Richards’s sample, only Yale University banned undergraduate-faculty dating

[hut-ho78]

I have kept up with this one, the one on Michael Barisone, and gone back to read all 122 pages of Rob Gage. I really appreciate the thoughtful posts. I do wonder if some of the posters are attorneys trying out their arguments and letting their research be crowd sourced by asking questions-a little probe here, a little probe there, reword it so it seems more palatable…I am heartsick over the abuse of minors which I believe is a way of life passed down through generations with the packaging of how those that groom minors are really more into their sexuality than the rest of us muggles and believe minors are little sexual beings ripe and easy to manipulate and bully. I am convinced SafeSport is long overdue and the process is pretty reasonable. I agree completely that it is a civil matter and code of ethics similar to doctors, lawyers, engineers, and accountants. I am grateful beyond measure to my parents and barn managers. I am grateful that my horses; however perfect to me, were not interesting to BNTs and that my lack of skills are the kind that only patient trainers who love a challenge would want to help. Although I started riding when I was 2 and my dad bought me a horse when I was 11, I never had a lesson until I was in my 30s except for this is right and this is left and this is whoa and you better make that horse mind and let it know who is boss accompanied by some yelling and cursing and quiet snippets of very valuable advice from barn owners, farriers, other horse owners, and veterinarians and lots of wonderful books, including George Morris’ Hunt Seat Equitation. It has been a stomach turning week. I have no doubt that there is a fight. I was in a barn in 1968 as a 12 year old that looked about 10 when two cute cowboys showed up and one started hanging around the girls my age and younger. I made a fuss “are you kidding, she is my age/she is younger than me” and those girls were so very angry. There was a slight scuffle and a deliberate horse spooking. The older girls came to my aid. I don’t know what would have happened if the barn owner and his wife were not as wonderful as they were and my parents hadn’t warned me again and again and one of the older teenager’s dad wasn’t a police officer. I can’t imagine being in a barn with a predator BNT. I never even heard of Jimmy Williams and Rob Gage. But George…I have been admiring him from afar since the 1968 Olympics. His advice for a straight line between bit and elbow probably saved my life with a horse with guttural pouch mycosis and a brain tumor as I was being told to set my hands. When I heard he was banned, I bought his latest book to support him. I wished I read this thread first. I thought it would be like Alois Podjavsky My Horses My Teachers. Now, I’m not sure I’ll be able to finish it except I guess I will have to just for another dose of reality. I didn’t run in show circles. I’ve volunteered at the warmup ring some. I never heard any rumors. My condolences to the families of Rob Gage and Michael Hart. I’ve lost a close friend and family members to suicide and it is devastating. The Olympic Committee wants to get rid of equestrian events because of the expense and the low turnout and equestrians should be leading the charge to protect minors so minors will continue to ride and be supported by parents in a world further and further from horses with greater and greater expense. They are the future supporters, riders, trainers, and emissaries for the sport. George Morris’ legacy will continue with every good bit of classical training he passed on even if he loses his appeal. He has had a great career. We are all the sum of who we are, good deeds and bad. SafeSport is to protect minors and that is, to me, the greatest priority.

[fargaloo]

@HLMom

I think your post is quite insightful in regard to what conduct people hid, versus what conduct they flaunted in public.

But your reference to being propositioned by male professors and the college academic code actually shows just how much things have actually changed. Until very recently, relationships between professors and students were NOT prohibited at the vast majority of colleges. Here’s an article and relevant quote:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/05/24/academe-sees-new-wave-faculty-student-relationship-restrictions-era-me-too

That’s really interesting; thanks for the link.

I’m pretty sure that at the time, my University had a prohibition against relationships between professors and students they were supervising or evaluating. At any rate, these come-ons were pretty secretive and furtive.

Thank goodness times have changed!

[skrosenthal]

@BigMama1

And still, at no point in this time period was coercing minors into a sexual relationship considered acceptable.

Once more for the people in the back.

[skrosenthal]

@vineyridge

Are you telling me that women suffer physical pain if denied orgasm?
Repressing desire is one thing; actual physical suffering is another.

You recognize this a conversation about raping children, right? That that’s what we’re talking about here? It literally does pain me to think about some of the people mentioned in this discussion having blue balls, but I can’t imagine a universe in which that “pain” rates against the conduct at issue.