The same sports event, the Olympics, is where I first heard of equestrian icons is the one that seeks to dump equestrian events because of the low market share and great expense, space needed, etc. So if the equestrians are truly the sports venue pushing back the most, then I fear for equestrian sports continuance in the Olympics. What about the sponsors? If equestrians don’t clean up our own industry, how many sponsors will stick with the athletes and show venues? And I’m just so upset that someone I’ve looked up to for so long is caught up in this and from all that I can read and explore there was quite an investigation already done. Waiting on the appeal. Sickened by all this. Very sad. Then add the others.
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So, a trainer on Facebook explained that some of the procedures wouldn’t work on how she does business and she is all in for protecting minors. The National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) allows for industry and construction to have their own individual plans to comply and there are published Best Management Practiced per industry for a start. The end result must be no pollution going off property. It seems to me that the organizations and top trainers and small barn trainers could work on Best Management Practices that are as good or better at protecting minors and present those as alternates to be considered. Also, the ones listed could be reviewed at mandatory barn meetings and local organizations to see how to comply knowing kids are dropped off at the barns. Some of y’all posted what barn managers already do. I don’t understand throwing it out when it protects everyone.
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I don’t deny that the linked post is a worthwhile read, but it is a blog post. It is not a peer reviewed article in a scientific journal or a news article that would be expected to conform to prevailing journalistic standards for presentation of factual information.
Not picking on you Sheilah or the point you are trying to make, but folks need to know what they are reading and how to differentiate. Whooeee.
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I do not think due process comes anywhere close. Ethics and Codes of Conduct and swearing Oaths of Office exist for professional fields, the military, all levels of government offices, licensing so engineers, lawyers, CPAs, electricians, plumbers, bureaucrats all fall under requirements for employment and licensing of profession that have nothing to do with crime and they can be fired or license removed, career ended for violating the same. There must be legal precedence for these and also someone mentioned the Kentucky Supreme Court upheld the USEF the lifetime ban of one member before SafeSport existed and with him there was not a conviction but a preponderance of evidence.
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There are multiple cases in gymnastics ranging from very local coaches to elite national coaches. Don Peters was the national coach for the 1984 team and was banned for sexual abuse in 2011 (allegations include events during the 1980s). Marvin Sharp is another national team coach who was banned, again quite late compared to the timing of the first complaints. USA Gymnastics is in trouble not because of the actions of Nassar alone but from many many ignored reports about several individuals, as well as allegations that their officials tampered with evidence.
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Did you miss the part where SafeSport conducted an 18 month investigation?
Nothing about the data those guys used reduces to something like a cultural moment of Political Correctness. And also, find me a laudable cultural moment in which pedophilia is worth returning to.
Did you miss the basic meaning of “me too” as indicating that lots and lots (and still unfathomly more) people have actually been the victims of some form of sexual abuse? No one is re-writing history in order to make this happen.
I’ll tolerate ignorant or stupid but not when those things are used in the service of meanness and exploitation.
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Your deliberate learned helplessness is EXACTLY why people (perhaps your own daughter) would not report until they were well ‘past’ the trauma. The average age of revelation is 52 years, btw.
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Please share how you know this?
This entire thread has focused on SS’s process which includes an investigation before labeling guilt. You’re merely gossiping on a public forum without having shared any evidence supporting your claims.
We have to be careful not to get so caught up in SS rulings that we start applying guilt universally without proof. This goes for everyone now and into the future.
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Sorry for all the posts but after reading 123 pages elsewhere a few others on another post and now 93 pages here, and Facebook posts…, finally wrote instead of read.
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And here is another gymnastics story, from the first USA Gymnastics world champion, relating events in 1979 when she was defending her title:
https://www.dailybreeze.com/2018/01/…tory-of-abuse/
Before Mary Lou and Gabby and Simone there was Marcia, America’s first golden girl, the New England 15-year-old who shocked the gymnastics world in 1978 by upsetting Nadia Comaneci, the personification of perfection, among others for the U.S.’ first woman’s global title.
“I went into their world and broke it down,” Frederick said.
Frederick, in an exclusive interview with the Southern California News Group, alleged that Carlson had her engage in sex acts for two years starting in 1979, just weeks after she turned 16 and only months after she won the uneven bars gold medal at the 1978 Worlds. Carlson continued to have sexual relations with her while she competed for Team USA in major international competitions and trained for the 1980 Olympic Games, Frederick said, until she was 18.
“Two years,” she said. “For me it seemed like 10 years.”
She didn’t report to USA Gymnastics until 2015 when she was in her 50s, but several people around her were told … and/or had irrefutable evidence… when she was 18.
Frederick began leaving a trail of evidence hoping someone would discover Carlson’s sexual involvement with her.
“I left so many clues as a little girl. Underwear in strange places,” she said. “I left so many clues for people and no one (found them).”
At one point a housekeeper working for Grossfeld in the farmhouse confronted Carlson about a condom she found in a strange place.
“And he made up some stupid story and I’m right there behind that wall and I’m going, ‘It’s finally going to happen, finally’ and nothing,” Frederick said. “I was so upset.”
Like seriously go read the whole thing; so many parallels to equestrian sport.
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Ick. Gross. :dead:
Thanks.
Was Karolyi included on that sex offenders list? Or did he just work them to a crazy degree on one meal a week?
Your ignorance is staggering. Have you been in a coma for oh, say 40 years?
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I vaguely recall some controversy over a husband-wife team who ran a training center. It was some years back, and it made a sort of blip, then faded from view.
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I believe that the Indianapolis Star investigation that broke the whole thing open was spurred by Nassar’s victims responding to a 2016 Star article about cover up of sexual abuse by coaches at USA Gymnastics. Nassar victims then responded to the tip line included with that article, saying they had information about people besides coaches. So yes, there were issues before Nassar.
EDIT - found the article
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/investigations/2016/08/04/usa-gymnastics-sex-abuse-protected-coaches/85829732/
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It is a scientifically proven method to prevent re-offence. Many studies on it. The biggest issue is the ethical side which, I say off with their balls.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9490924
http://journals.euser.org/files/articles/ejser_sep_dec_17_nr_1/Vedije.pdf
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I thought it just destroyed DNA evidence until DNA testing improved so much. I thought chemical castration through drugs was not effective. Thanks for the links. I thought the Castrati of the 1800s had lovers and had poems written about their abilities as they could still perform and there was no fear of pregnancy. Should the chemical or physical castration truly work that is great but if the impulse originates from other motivations, then I wonder. I hope it does work.
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They most often DON’T start with coercion and shame. That doesn’t come until much later. These pedophiles start grooming their victims by making them feel special. It is a fact that many (perhaps even most?) survivors of long term sexual abuse had families that were dysfunctional to varying degrees. That dysfunction opened the child up to responding to being made to feel special in a very particular way. The pedophile can smell the “right” conditions a mile away.
That is part of the grooming process. Pedophiles always have feelers out, probing and testing, evaluating. When a child’s circumstances tick the boxes, the process becomes more targeted to that particular child. Is the family sufficiently distracted with divorce, illness, substance abuse, whatever? Is the child open to being singled out from their peers? Does the child fit the physical profile the pedophile wants?
Believe me, if a pedophile’s MO was to drag a child into a dark room and molest them the first time they met? The outcomes would be different. The vast majority don’t operate that way. They pick their victims carefully. They carefully construct and guide the situation until eventually they are able to frame the sexual contact as an extension of how important that child is, how loved and protected they are by the abuser.
The coercion and shaming doesn’t start until the abuser starts to feel control of the situation slipping a little. And most often the “go to” method is shaming the victim. Nobody will believe you. You wanted me to touch you. You will get in trouble. Everyone will know you’re a slut, know that you’re a fag. You won’t be special anymore. Pick your poison. And then they move on. The child has aged out of the pedophile’s desired demographic. They get caught just enough for people to know that something “happened”, but nobody wants to know what and they just want to bury it and walk away. Whatever. Things shift and another child is targeted and the grooming starts all over again.
Keep in mind that the pedophile has hidden in plain sight. Larry Nassar, “I am doing a medical procedure. Only I can fix your child”. George Morris, “Your child has talent and I can make it happen for them”. My step-father, “God has called me to help this broken family and the daughter needs extra support and caring”.
These people, for the most part, aren’t hiding their victims in the basement, behind a secret door. They marry our drug addled mothers. They dangle health and continued competition in front of children and parents. They insinuate that with extra “access” and training the Olympics is within reach.
These monsters are right here, living in plain sight. They aren’t driving up in an unfamiliar car and asking us if we want to help them find their lost puppy. They are the team doctor. They are the t-ball coach. They teach Sunday school. They are a best friend’s parent. They are a legend in the sport we love. They eat dinner at our own kitchen table and wait until everyone is asleep. They are a fixture in our lives. They don’t have to lure us. They are already in our lives.
They minimize. They minimize. Every. Single. Day. They say their medical treatment is misunderstood. They say they were only trying to build on a talented rider. They say they were only checking to make sure a child was covered on a cold night.
They groom us. They twist the world to make it look a certain way. Up is down and down is up. And they scare the shit out of us for the rest of our lives.
And even though we are scared, and ashamed, we step forward and speak our truth. Some of us can say it and never waver again from those words being heard out loud. Some of us need to speak it and then take it back because the fear in our own minds is so overwhelming it might be another thirty years before we can speak the truth again. Some of us never say anything. Some of us use drugs and drink. Some of us become so anxiety ridden that we push ourselves to never, ever make a mistake about anything. Some of us turn around and abuse others. None of that changes the fact that we were hurt in an irreparable way when we were young and vulnerable.
“F” George Morris. At this point the allegations have been investigated. He doesn’t deserve to automatically be given the benefit of even more doubt. I am going to stand with the people who were strong enough to insist that they be heard. At last. Those are my people. They are my tribe.
Sheilah
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@ Tiramit I can’t speak as to Jay’s knowledge, but Frank’s conviction for sexual misconduct with a minor in NY (third degree sodomy, if I recall correctly) was a matter of public record before he moved down here. He was on the NY sex offender list. He was initially on the VA list also (that’s how I became aware of it), but petitioned to have himself removed unsuccessfully once and then was successful in having his name removed from the VA list in 2015, I think. I think many people were aware of his conviction. It seemed to be pretty common knowledge back then.
I thought the whole thing was pretty skeevy at the time, and also was skeptical of his list of accomplishments, but no way was I boarding or taking lessons there anyhow for many reasons, so other than giving my opinion to anyone who asked me, I didn’t pay too much attention to whatever went on at the farm.
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@dannyboy, thank you. I specifically referenced Jay because you and @Gainer seem to have some inside knowledge about the situation. At least you both are very confident in your posts.
Karolyis are not (yet) on any list, but they have closed their residential training center.
