The odds are more likely the line bred horse will carry recessive genes then the non line bred. I’ve heard of too many young horses put down because of “problems”. How do I hear about it? I train with a EC High Performance Dressage Coach who has let me know about the horses being euthanized. It’s kept quite quiet. I’ve owned several horses, who were not lined bred, that lived to their 30’s and were sound until their late 20’s. I buy a line bred weanling on the dams side and she dead at 8 from incurable disease. I’ll take the advice of my vets and the German vet to stay away from the line bred horses so I don’t have the heart ache of euthanizing a young horse.
3 Likes
Okay not warmblood related but I saw the strangest pedigree today. All the storm bird and storm cat jumped right out at me and I was like holy moly. Then i learned that fusaichi pegasus is the most expensive horse in the world - ranks higher than totilas…but this horse never raced.
I just thought it was interesting.
1 Like
I think you are making a very broad statement WRT line breeding and the idea that all line bred animals are short lived or even at a genetic disadvantage. Line breeding has been done for centuries and has produced many fantastic offspring from various species, including the sport horse. Yes, with higher coefficients of line breeding, negative characteristics are going to be strengthened, but so are the positives. There are some breeds where some degre of line breeding is impossible to avoid purely for the fact that the breed is limited in numbers. However, you will see diversity in lameness and length of life within that breed. Line breeding does not condemn any horse to a specific fate. You can find line breeding in the most successful of WBs, TBs, QHs., etc. - many with very long and prosperous careers.
10 Likes
As far as the video goes - I would absolutely love to see changes regarding age requirements for stallion testing. Registries push young stallions to obtain a certain degree of training at a certain age, regardless of the horse’s mental age or physical maturity. Stallions are training GP movements by the age of 8 and retiring to stud quite early. The system is geared towards financial achievement, producing sport horses as quick as possible and is not incentivizing horses that have long and proven careers. New stallions come along and replace them. Breeders are also quick to choose the flavor of the month.
16 Likes
Fusaichi Pegasus is not the most expensive TB stallion, at all. Far from it.
10 Likes
I meant this: https://ceoworld.biz/2022/07/20/top-10-most-expensive-horses-in-the-world-who-own-them/
I wonder how they got it so wrong? Not a horse publication I take it…
3 Likes
An interesting horse to consider regarding the success of line breeding/inbreeding is the German stallion, United Touch S. Phenomenal show jumper, heavily line bred. I look forward to his future career. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to gauge the longevity of the genetics when horses are competing at such high levels (and so prone to injury having nothing to do with genetic potential):
Pedigree (41.4 percent inbreeding coefficient)
https://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1677488/united-touch-s
2 Likes
Yes, let’s be quiet about the devastating effects breeding to inbred stallions and mares. My money, which is substantial, will not be going to breeders who use inbred breeding stock. Don’t care how far back in the pedigree and it’s not happening. Tell me what is the level of acceptable destruction of young horses to get the few successful competitors? It isn’t the breeders who are having to deal with the cost and devastation of euthanizing a young horse. It’s already a crap shot with young horses trying to kill or injuring themselves without the extra worry they are carrying a non-curable disease. Why all the secrecy of keeping quiet who’s stallions and indirectly the mares are passing on these horrible, non-treatable diseases? My vets are knowledgeable and highly respected in my area and are telling me to not buy line bred horses as they are having too many coming into their clinic with these horrible diseases. My mare’s breeder had no interest in hearing about my vet’s findings, just sorry to hear she had been euthanized.
9 Likes
this brings to mind the old joke “it’s line breeding when it works, inbreeding when it doesn’t”
40 Likes
There are plenty of non-linebred* horses that have had devastating neurological diseases. I owned one myself.
Linebreeding is “only” a problem when the ancestor bred to has something recessive. I put only in quotes because there are so many things about genetics, inheritance, and epigenetics that we still don’t understand about neurological diseases.
Asterisk disclaimer: AFAIK nearly all domesticated horse breeds will have significant linebreeding if you go about 200 years back. It will be more significant if the registry is or was a closed stud book.
Then there is management — and there is growing evidence that management can play a huge role in the development of neurological symptoms.
18 Likes
There is so much to unpack here, and so many things that are misleading or inaccurate, but ok.
14 Likes
I’d take that with a grain of salt unless I knew the horses and their specific circumstances personally. I know one EC high performance coach in particular who has a bit of history declaring horses to be neurological whenever they hit a training plateau or start displaying behaviour problems. Sadly yes, some of these horses (too many?) make a one way trip to the vet hospital. But I’ve personally seen several others written off by this coach whose owners refused to retire or euth them, took them elsewhere, and subsequently had great success under another coach / trainer. IMO if that many horses in a single program are ending up with neuro issues, or tendon issues, or neck arthritis, for example, that might be a red flag about the kind of training happening there.
Again, not saying line breeding isn’t a major contributor to issues. But so are a number of other factors: poor management, as mentioned above, and a riding / training style that may cause physical and or behavioural issues.
11 Likes
Wow interesting looks like they were intensifying the Olympic mare Classic Touch (Beerbaum) genes.
3 Likes
Worth noting that line breeding generally refers to no common ancestors 5 generations and beyond, and inbreeding is common ancestry closer in the pedigree such as within the first 4 generations.
That said, TBs have an average inbreeding coefficient of roughly 12 percent which is largely why the TB is so identifiable and prepotent. But obviously, despite the average inbreeding coefficient, this guarantees no certain genetic tendencies as soundness and longevity are hugely variant amongst TBs despite common ancestry within the closed breed.
It can be said that outcrossing can produce hardy offspring, similar to mixed breed dogs being often less problematic than purebreds, but it is a crap shoot for breeding certain characteristics and breeding them reliably. The lack of homozygous traits lends to unpredictable results in offspring and characteristics one wishes to pass down, such as an excellent jump, dressage movement, trainability, etc., become far more difficult to control. That is why many stallions without any line breeding in their pedigrees fail as stallions - they do not consistently pass on desired homozygous characteristics to their offspring.
This is why there should be a nice balance within breeding - line breeding certain characteristics to increase genetic probability and control while maintaining enough distance in the first generations. Line breeding is not a problem when breeding stock is rigorously screened and when negative genetic traits are avoided.
12 Likes
And alternatively a horse doesn’t need to be inbred or linebred to inherit a disease. A horse that’s HYPP n/N can still have symptoms and pass along the disease, even if the QH parent was way back in the ancestry.
7 Likes
The problem being that “negative genetic traits” can’t be avoided before they are recognized.
Hopefully the Warmblood registries will dig in, research, and out perform the AQHA in culling their breeding stock. It isn’t really looking likely at this point in time, is it, when some of the issues are diseases that can only be diagnosed with invasive procedures or necropsy?
11 Likes
I thought the % figure was the amount of tb? And the inbreeding coefficient is shown by the colour coding? Do you have the pro version where you can see the inbreeding percentage calculated?
@bwp my caffeine has not kicked in yet. My screenshot offers no clarity to your question.
Returning to my coffee now…
2 Likes
