German vet discusses flawed breeding and issues with movement

[Warmblood1]

@sascha

Otoh, back 20 or so years ago, I had a friend who was looking to breed a mare. I don’t remember all the details, but because of family history, she wanted to have a blood test done on stallions she was considering for her mare so she wouldn’t end up with the equivalent of an orphan foal due to harmful antibodies in the mare’s milk. (Please don’t quiz me - it was a long time ago, and not my circus lol, but she had a very legit reason for wanting to make sure mare and stallion were chemically compatible.)

There was more than one stallion owner who refused (and lost her business) a simple blood test that the mare owner was willing to pay for - vet call fee and all.

The only thing that comes to mind is Neonatal Isoerythrolysis which doesn’t really fit but maybe someone else can recognize what you are thinking of.

Regardless, if it were that, the best thing to do would be not to breed the mare. Mare owners are equally responsible in breeding the appropriate stock yet testing is not a requirement to breed. All the responsibility is placed on the stallion owner which I don’t agree with.

Either way, if I had a stallion for breeding and a mare owner wanted to do unnecessary testing that could potentially create risk with my stallion - or I believed the mare was not breeding material and that the issue didn’t lie with the stallion, then I’d likely not do the requested test, too. But again, I really don’t know the exact situation here.

[sascha]

Whatever. The mare was healthy. The mare was lovely. The test was necessary to assure health of the foal. If you had been one of the stallion owners approached and had said no to something so simple and free, you would have crossed your stallion off that mare owners list as people she could deal with and stallions that were potential candidates. No hard feelings just a bunch of head shaking.

But the thing is that particular case doesn’t really matter, it was just a way of illustrating that there are stallion owners who don’t even want to bother knowing innocuous details about their particular that may help mare owners so there certainly must be a few who would be against testing for other issues that may have actual effects on their breeding programs more than the loss of one measly contract per year.

[sascha]

@Amberley

culling started right afterwards.

Exactly, because people’s livelihoods are on the line with cattle. Get the bad genes out of the pool stat before everyone goes broke.

And the countdown to people on this thread flipping about culling … 3 … 2 … 1 …

[Warmblood1]

I just think the argument you are making is pretty weak considering you don’t know what the test was for, and therefore, if the mare really should have been bred and if the stallion owner was actually being unreasonable. It feels like pawning all responsibility and blame on the stallion owner. Maybe they were to blame - maybe not.

Shrug.

[Scribbler]

I feel like metrics for cattle are less complex than for horses.

Metrics for race horses are less complex than for performance horses.

The elements you need to balance in a performance horse include gait, aptitude, brain as well as conformation and health and hooves. Full siblings may have very different careers. Even speed in race horses isn’t reliably inherited.

Whereas beef or milk production is more easily measured. And they aren’t expected to live and work into their 20s.

[sascha]

Yup, I get it. They are very well tracked in Canada too. I don’t know how well they are tracked by breed organizations/government in the U.S. Canadian cattle are tracked by both.

I think the other thing with cattle is that the whole life cycle gets going a bit quicker so results of a couple of seasons breeding are apparent much more quickly than with horses + the whole genomics thing, actually plus, plus, plus, there’s just so much that goes into it. And no semen company would be dumb enough to keep a bull with a heritable problem because it would be more expensive in the long run than culling it.

In a lot of ways I wish we had a better handle on horses as livestock rather than horses as expensive pets who might dance pretty or leap tall buildings or whatever.

[Scribbler]

If I were a stud owner I would be cautious about permitting any novel testing that a mare owner requested. If I thought the test was important I’d have done it on my own. If I just learned about it, I’d do my own research, talk to my vet, make a decision. But I’d be wary of letting a mare owner commission tests on my stud that the mare owner would then own and be free to share. I would want to pay for tests and own them.

Also one breeding isn’t make or break financially or as high stakes financially as selling a horse. I’d be inclined to bypass any mare owner who seemed complex.

[sascha]

Because not my horse, not my circus, and I really have pretty much zero interest in breeding horses so I have no freaking clue beyond a basic blood draw was all that was asked and it would be done by stallion owner’s vet of choice and paid for by mare owner.

It was a really eye opening experience to hear about.

Your reaction to it is equally, um, interesting.

The foal was lovely btw, but I’m sure that doesn’t matter because you’re too busy worrying about “blame being tossed on stallion owners” where no blame is being tossed anywhere.

You might want to consider having that chip seen to, I mean your poor shoulder!

[Warmblood1]

@Scribbler

If I were a stud owner I would be cautious about permitting any novel testing that a mare owner requested. If I thought the test was important I’d have done it on my own. If I just learned about it, I’d do my own research, talk to my vet, make a decision. But I’d be wary of letting a mare owner commission tests on my stud that the mare owner would then own and be free to share. I would want to pay for tests and own them.

Also one breeding isn’t make or break financially or as high stakes financially as selling a horse. I’d be inclined to bypass any mare owner who seemed complex.

This exactly. I wouldn’t want to subject my horse to unnecessary testing and if the mare was not suitable for breeding, why would I want to do such testing in the first place? Why would I want to create a risky breeding situation and outcome that could potentially damage my (metaphorical) stallion’s reputation? Stallion ownership is hard enough as it is. Most stallion owners are doing the standard genetic testing that is available anyways. And you are also right about stallion owners wanting to avoid unreasonable mare owners. They are out there, they make life difficult and are usually not worth the one to few breedings they bring in.

@sascha, it’s honestly pretty obvious your experience/knowledge with (horse) breeding is limited. Maybe that is why you are surprised by my response. No reason to get catty, however. It’s just a discussion on a message board.

[sascha]

@Scribbler

I feel like metrics for cattle are less complex than for horses.

Um, yeah, no. Not at all.

Longevity is VERY important. High milk production isn’t necessarily inherited from the dam/can be positively negatively affected by the sire. Feet, omg, feet (but we’re not getting into that here or the AQHA folks might have a meltdown )

Then we have stuff like udder shape and size, and teat placement - all somewhat related to longevity, overall health, value, and potential to be used in a modern robot barn.

That’s just a very basic start. To be honest, most of it went over my head because it’s flippin’ complicated (and not my cowz, under my care, but not mine).

@Scribbler

If I were a stud owner I would be cautious about permitting any novel testing that a mare owner requested.

It was a well known if somewhat rare issue that had ZERO impact on the stallion or stallion owner unless they ever got another mare in to breed with similar blood type (or whatever the hell it was) in which case they could say, “Hey, yeah, actually we had a blood test done last year for another mare like yours and we’re good to go! Here’s a copy of the results.” or “I’m sorry, but we’ve already had his blood tested and he’s not a good match for your mare. Sorry.”

That is literally how it went. It wasn’t looking for a fault in the stallion. It wasn’t a fault, it was a compatibility thing. You remember that House (or Grey’s? or something lol) where it was discovered that a woman was allergic to her partner’s semen? Something like that except it would be the foal that was affected, not the mare.

I do not understand why people are so frightened of knowing things about their horses. Being frightened of something so simple sure sheds some light on how things might go as more is understood about heritable traits in horses

[sascha]

@Warmblood1

it’s honestly pretty obvious your experience/knowledge with (horse) breeding is limited. Maybe that is why you are surprised by my response. No reason to get catty, however. It’s just a discussion on a message board.

Not giving a crap about a former life 25+ years ago that I have no current interest in and having limited experience are two different things.

Suprised by your response? Not really. I’m more gobsmacked by the lack of reading ability and comprehension skills, but whatever, it’s just a message board.

**Nice chatting with you pot,

Signed,

Kettle who will always return the service with a smile**

[Warmblood1]

You seem to be trying your best to insult me for whatever reason. Sorry to say it’s not working.

For the sake of the actual conversation, however, I believe what your friend was referring to WRT testing the stallion is neonatal isoerythrolysis. It is not a genetic component that the stallion passes down and is an issue that lies with the mare and foal. It is not a routine genetic test done for stallions and is up to the SO if they want to pursue that route of testing. Maybe they were afraid there would be issues with the foal and they didn’t want that result.

[sascha]

@Warmblood1

It is not a genetic component that the stallion passes down and is an issue that lies with the mare and foal. It is not a routine genetic test done for stallions

Only in your mind did I say that it was a genetic thing. You invented that all by yourself.

Nowhere did I say it was genetic. I said simple blood test. I said no effect on stallion. Etc. I know exactly what it was for, but left all of that out for the sake of an interesting conversation - to see just how twisted it would get. You did not disappoint!

Once again, read for comprehension. It will make dealing with “difficult” mare owners much easier for you in the long run. LoL.

[CanteringCarrot]

What the actual…

Man, I’m sorry that some of you are so miserable that you have to drag it into what could’ve been an interesting and educational discussion.

[endlessclimb]

Yeah, I’m siding with the stallion owners here. They are not obligated to run whatever test a mare owner wants. If the mare owner doesn’t like that, they can go elsewhere.

Also, if the mare is a carrier of something that concerning, the mare owner should stare straight in the mirror and ask why they’re breeding her. Period.

[DawnJL]

Not disagreeing with your general premise, but NI isn’t a genetic carrier situation. It’s a blood type mismatch between mare and foal when the foal inherits the sire’s blood type and that blood type is incompatible with antigens produced by the mare.

It’s rare, but can be devastating. A breeder who has previously had experience with an NI foal may well choose to screen subsequent mare and stallion pairs to be sure that their matches have compatible blood types --even for mares with no history of NI. There is nothing nefarious in such a precaution. (I seem to recall that NI screening is routine for some TB breeders because NI occurs at a higher frequency in TBs compared to many other breeds.)

Nenoatal Isoerythrolysis

[endlessclimb]

That may be the case, but judging a stallion owner for saying “nah, I’m good” when a mare owner presents with that is really unfair.

The mare owner is awfully entitled if she feels slighted when told no.

[Alterration]

@DawnJL

Not disagreeing with your general premise, but NI isn’t a genetic carrier situation. It’s a blood type mismatch between mare and foal when the foal inherits the sire’s blood type and that blood type is incompatible with antigens produced by the mare.

It’s rare, but can be devastating. A breeder who has previously had experience with an NI foal may well choose to screen subsequent mare and stallion pairs to be sure that their matches have compatible blood types --even for mares with no history of NI. There is nothing nefarious in such a precaution. (I seem to recall that NI screening is routine for some TB breeders because NI occurs at a higher frequency in TBs compared to many other breeds.)

Nenoatal Isoerythrolysis

Ahhh, so it’s sort of like being Rh- in humans? So what the mare owner would be requesting of the stallion owner is just his blood type? Seems like a reasonable request to me.

[ThreeFigs]

My Mom bred German Shepherds. She requested that any bitch she was to breed have good OFA certified hips and elbows before she would accept a stud fee.

Soundness and good disposition were very important to her – a bad breeding outcome reflects on both parents and the breeder.

This may have no connection to what you guys are discussing – I’m just stating what an ethical breeder might do to preserve their stock’s reputation.

[sascha]

@endlessclimb

Yeah, I’m siding with the stallion owners here. They are not obligated to run whatever test a mare owner wants. If the mare owner doesn’t like that, they can go elsewhere.

Also, if the mare is a carrier of something that concerning, the mare owner should stare straight in the mirror and ask why they’re breeding her. Period.

Of course stallion owners are not obligated to run a blood test. But I found it very interesting how some were so against a simple blood draw that would tell them nothing about anything except for their stallion’s blood types that they declined.

The mare carried nothing and was not a breeding risk. Period.