“We” didn’t realize she was a horse trader and not a trainer. That’s YOUR opinion only, there is no “we” in that.
In fact she’s a very good horse trainer. To judge someone and call them names based on one brief statement they make in an article - that’s your schtick.
Well if any publicity is good publicity, DT should be happy with the response to this article and you can probably expect to see more Opinion type articles! What a reaction! Especially considering that the words Rollkur and Parelli did not appear in the thread! :lol:
Yeah, until NOW! :mad::lol::lol:
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;2925178]
Beginners and intermediate amateur riders are very ill served by advice in a national magazine telling them to spend $20k-$50k for a “good” horse to learn on in order to be a “better rider.” No mention that horses in the lower end of that range that are “bred for dressage” are usually 3-4 year olds that are not at all suitable for many, if not most, riders. :no:
Advice like that keeps the trainers and breeders in business though![/QUOTE]
Oy! Tell me about it! My newbie is a LOVELY mover ‘tho of non-WB breeding. In order to keep it within my price range I ended up buying a 2.5 year old. I didn’t pay anywhere near $20K for him. Of course, his initial purchase price was increased by a goodly amount for several months to a colt starter, but still well under even 10K total. I dont know where I’d classify myself along the beginner to advanced scale. Certainly not a beginner, but I’m no pro. Advanced intermediate? I’ve evented through prelim, done H/J to 4’, etc. but I quickly found out the difference between a green 4 year old and a barely started 3 year old. I am riding at the limits of my ability with this youngster and he is wonderful, but sometimes a little scary. A friend who is probably more typical of the middle-aged new to dressage rider has an 11 year old former hunter TB that she is often nervous about riding, and I know she could not ride my newbie to save her life. I doubt she would be willing to even get on him (not that I would ask her to do so!). For such a rider as she to take on a 3 or 4 year old green $20,000 WB? I don’t THINK so. In fact, most of the $20K WB I see advertised are coming 3 year oolds - i.e., unstarted 2 year olds.
yes, of course. whoever happened to be reading. my SO read it, he has never owned or been interested in horses, but she MUST be talking to him too.
My first horse (the ex-barrel racer :eek:) was the Morgan but sadly he has passed on. Cindy would say the time spent with him could have been better spent with a different horse, and that I would be a better rider now if I had chosen her preferred breed instead. Where does she get off saying this BS? That’s what I want to know. :mad:
why is this bs? if i spent years racing around on hafflingers, would that make me an awesome jockey? no one is saying that it’s a waste of time, but if i want to be a really good jockey, i better start racing around on TBs to get a feel for their gaits and their speed and the type of training that generally works with them.
Her “advice” was only applicable to 1-2% of dressage riders, so yes she should have let us know ahead of time. Her opinions were worthless to the vast majority of riders, and I’d be willing to wager that those who would care already know all that she’s said.
the same thing could be said about the articles about training tempi changes or working on half steps. these articles don’t apply to 99% of dressage riders, and the riders that might be interested probably already know how to train these things or are working with someone who knows how to train them. maybe dressage today should just stick to things like worming schedules and how to put on polo wraps?
[QUOTE=class;2926957]
why is this bs? if i spent years racing around on hafflingers, would that make me an awesome jockey? no one is saying that it’s a waste of time, but if i want to be a really good jockey, i better start racing around on TBs to get a feel for their gaits and their speed and the type of training that generally works with them.[/QUOTE]
WOW, so you really do believe you are a better rider just because of the breed of horse you ride? :eek::eek::eek: I’d have serious doubts about the riding ability of anyone who goes around saying that.
WOW, so you really can’t comprehend the written word?
Class - forget it… you’re dealing with a person that argues for the sake of arguing, nothing else.
Wow. This argument is still going, huh?
STFU, plz. 
[QUOTE=class;2926957]
the same thing could be said about the articles about training tempi changes or working on half steps. these articles don’t apply to 99% of dressage riders, and the riders that might be interested probably already know how to train these things or are working with someone who knows how to train them. maybe dressage today should just stick to things like worming schedules and how to put on polo wraps?[/QUOTE]
I think you are being disingenuous. The point is that the article was addressed in general terms to the general readership. There was no specification that it was addressed only to riders on the track to extremely high level competition. In fact, there was a specific comment that her thoughts applied even to those who did not even show. A better - i.e., more expensive, purpose-bred horse - will make you a better rider and you are wasting your time with anything less and should go into debt, if necessary, to get that better horse (or alternatively, search forever for that truly exceptional individual that you can purchase for less than $20K - a slightly more valid recommendation.). While the general readership is mostly ammies (of all levels and all incomes) it can be interesting to read articles about how to school higher levels work even if it does not presently apply to you, though I will admit, I have often thought it was doubtful that anyone already working 4th level or above would be consulting a magazine on how to improve their canter zig-zags! This article, however, did seem to be addressing even non-competitive riders, and from that viewpoint, it is rather condescending and belies all the prior assurances given to the “average” amateur rider that dressage is about training and improvement, not gaits.
why is this bs? if i spent years racing around on hafflingers, would that make me an awesome jockey? no one is saying that it’s a waste of time, but if i want to be a really good jockey, i better start racing around on TBs to get a feel for their gaits and their speed and the type of training that generally works with them.
Hey, I resent the implication that some breeds - like, say… Haffys - aren’t just as good as Thoroughbreds. Whaddya mean, implying that I wasted my time with my Halflinger. Geez. Who do you think you are? Obviously you’re biased, bigoted, prejudiced, and all that.
I mean, if I want to run my Haffy against someone else’s TB, why shouldn’t I? It’s all about the journey, NOT how many seconds it takes to get from the starting line to the finish flags.
part of what she was saying (as I read it) was if you only have X amount of money to spend, and have to buy both car and horse, buy the cheaper, less expensive CAR and more expensive HORSE! As in, where are your priorities?
[QUOTE=feisomeday;2927462]
part of what she was saying (as I read it) was if you only have X amount of money to spend, and have to buy both car and horse, buy the cheaper, less expensive CAR and more expensive HORSE! As in, where are your priorities?[/QUOTE]
There was no “if you only” as if one were making a choice between a horse or a car. The comparison was that “most people think nothing” of buying a $20K to $35K car so why not buy a $20K to $50K horse by getting a loan as one would for a car. Well, guess what, this PERSON does NOT buy expensive cars. I personally - and many of my friends who ride - already drive economical, relatively low price range cars OR older trucks to pull our trailers (my truck is 20 years old, my trailer 15 - both purchased used). It’s not as if it were, “Oh, gee, maybe instead of that new lower-end BMW I should buy a Saturn and get an expensive horse instead.” It’s more like, “How much can I afford for a horse while I’m still paying off my now three or four year old Chevy 2500.” Hell, I had to get a loan to buy the $5K horse she so belittles as a waste of my time.
Why are some people so defensive? If the magazine article doesn’t apply to you, turn the page! For example, Canticle writes, “Her ‘advice’ was only applicable to 1-2% of dressage riders.” How do you KNOW that? I know a lot of adult amateurs who are ambitious, work hard, trade up their horses so they can continue to improve and progress. Don’t put a glass celing above all of us AAs – some of us do want to ride at FEI!!!
As an adult amateur, I understand what Cindy Sydnor is saying. It’s why I drive a Saturn coupe that I bought used from my mom and it now has 207,000 miles on it. It’s why my horses get new shoes, and I rarely do, it’s why my husband and I rarly eat out, but have frozen pizza at home, etc. etc. We all have priorities, and I’d rather put it toward my horses and my goals because…as I have learned over the years, “Good horses make good riders.” Yes, any horse can “do” dressage, but if someone has goals to move along at a reasonable learning pace, one needs to do it on an appropriate horse. (And I’m talking about after one is no longer a “beginner” rider; when we first start dressage, we need a safe, sound, sensible, calm partner.)
When I finally got to the point in my riding life when I wasn’t water skiing on my horse’s mouth and had a somewhat stable seat, my trainer and friends put me on their horses and, let me tell you, the light bulb went off in my head. What a difference to sit on a horse that is more appropriate for my goals! It was an incredible high. I’m sure the same feeling would be had if I sat on a top cutting horse. (And if I was interested in cutting and reached a certain point in my riding, you can bet I would be researching bloodlines and finding a horse that could really, really teach me to be the best I could be in that sport.)
Sure, there is satisfaction in improving “any” horse in dressage. But…do I want to spend years getting a horse that isn’t “suitable” for my dressage goals to feel more uphill when the timeframe would be shortened with a horse that is built for the job? I’ve already “been there, done that” on the “any” horse – and learned some bad riding habits. I stuck too long with horses because I was sentimental – I “loved” the horse; I spent too many years with a horse that, even though my trainer had doubts, I was stubbornly foolish enough to think I could do it. I have ridden for more years that I want to admit, and it is a HUGE difference to sit on a horse that has been bred for the job, and I thank my trainer and friends in the past for giving me the opportunity to feel the difference between a horse that struggles to do the “job” and one that just “can”. (And I’ve ridden warmbloods that are not suitable for dressage either, so don’t assume I’m bashing non-WBs. I’ve owned QHs, QH crosses, WBs, WB/TBs… I’m simply talking about appropriate for one’s dressage goals.)
Again, if Cindy’s article doesn’t apply to some of you or doesn’t fit with your philosophy, ignore it. I find the years I’m spending on this earth way, way too short. And since I’m not blessed with natural talent and got into this sport when I was an adult, I want to learn correctly as quickly as I can.
I’m sure my mom wished I could have been a concert pianist. I had piano lessons from grade school through college…even played in a jazz band. But it just wasn’t my forte…no matter how much my mom “rode” me to practice, it wasn’t going to happen. Same with some horses. After a point, it just isn’t going to happen with them, and then they need to go on to someone else to teach them that part of the journey, and I need to move on so I can obtain my personal goals. (Now if only I had gotten RIDING lessons when I was a kid instead of piano. Heck, I might be in the Olympics! : - ) Well, maybe not, but I do think that would have been more “appropriate” for my aptitude and enjoyment than the hours spent practicing scales…)
[QUOTE=Touchstone Farm;2928565]
Why are some people so defensive? If the magazine article doesn’t apply to you, turn the page! For example, Canticle writes, “Her ‘advice’ was only applicable to 1-2% of dressage riders.” How do you KNOW that? I know a lot of adult amateurs who are ambitious, work hard, trade up their horses so they can continue to improve and progress. Don’t put a glass celing above all of us AAs – some of us do want to ride at FEI!!![/QUOTE]
To me it is Sydnor’s advice which is limiting. I know trading up horses is a status symbol to some, but having a revolving door of horses would hold ME back. And I know AAs with all sorts of different goals and aspirations. Who are the ones who are wasting their time? The ones with the “unsuitable” horses, or the ones who are constantly trading their horses in? Or is it possible that if you are happy, you are not wasting your time at all?
As an adult amateur, I understand what Cindy Sydnor is saying. It’s why I drive a Saturn coupe that I bought used from my mom and it now has 207,000 miles on it. It’s why my horses get new shoes, and I rarely do, it’s why my husband and I rarly eat out, but have frozen pizza at home, etc. etc. We all have priorities, and I’d rather put it toward my horses and my goals because…as I have learned over the years, “Good horses make good riders.” Yes, any horse can “do” dressage, but if someone has goals to move along at a reasonable learning pace, one needs to do it on an appropriate horse. (And I’m talking about after one is no longer a “beginner” rider; when we first start dressage, we need a safe, sound, sensible, calm partner.)
I’m sure we all believe our horses to be the most appropriate for ourselves.
When I finally got to the point in my riding life when I wasn’t water skiing on my horse’s mouth and had a somewhat stable seat, my trainer and friends put me on their horses and, let me tell you, the light bulb went off in my head. What a difference to sit on a horse that is more appropriate for my goals! It was an incredible high. I’m sure the same feeling would be had if I sat on a top cutting horse. (And if I was interested in cutting and reached a certain point in my riding, you can bet I would be researching bloodlines and finding a horse that could really, really teach me to be the best I could be in that sport.)
The “high” that you feel, we all feel that. It’s not a breed thing or even a dressage thing. It’s what you feel once you find an ideal partner. :yes:
There are religious parallels to all of this. I feel like someone of a different faith is trying to “save” me, and is unable to accept that I am committed to the religion I already have! I know we all think that OUR religion is THE way to salvation, but there are hundreds of different belief systems out there. Instead of trying to convert people, or looking down on those who refuse to be converted, can’t we just respect people of all religions?
It’s not a question of riding a pro dressage horse, “seeing the light”, and then switching to your preferred type of horse. We already have seen the light, and that’s why we ride the horses we do.
A $50,000.00 horse does not make a good rider. Hours in the saddle are what it takes. A $50,000.00 horse will probably make for better results at a show, of course. If that’s what you desire, that’s cool. If I had that kind of $, I’d spend it on training and then ride other people’s expensive horses.
Dressage Today doesn’t publish articles and editorials saying “Dressage is a crock. Take up cutting or reining. Dressage is abusive…, etc.”
So… while the column maybe “just” Ms. Sydnor’s opinion, it still bears the magazine’s imprimatur: It is telling the dressage community that her opinion is mainstream, acceptable and correct: You need to spend the big bucks, buy the gaits…All very well and good if you are talking about those who are definitely on the track to High Performance. BUT… the vast percentage of dressage riders in this country are adult amateurs, and I think it does a great disservice to “dressage” in general to tell them that, with rare exceptions, ONLY the riders on expensive horses are going to succeed AT ANY LEVEL: Because that’s what she’s saying. She specifically says that in order to become a good rider you need an expensive horse. Not just a “good” horse - because by her definition the only “good” horses are the expensive ones, and while you may improve the “others” you are wasting your time in doing so. And she doesn’t limit it to the competitive arena and showing. She specifically says this advice applies to those who don’t compete as well.
No one is denying that a quality WB costs money and that a quality warmblood is probably the type of horse one should buy if one has high ambitions in the dressage world. But we’ve been told repeatedly that it’s “about the training” and this opinion piece - apparently expressing the beliefs of the Powers That Be (for example, those that propose, among other things, the new qualification rule) gives the lie to that. It puts an emphasis on the idea that you need to spend big bucks to succeed in “dressage,” rather than simply enjoy and try to improve the horse you have if that is what you want to do either because of your relationship with that horse or simply because you cannot afford to do otherwise (but the article encourages going into debt! for a luxury! for a hobby!). It adds to what appears to be dressage’s EXCLUSIVITY rather than INCLUSIVITY. I’m sorry, despite all the advocates for this viewpoint, I still think it is condescending and irresponsible, and, to a degree, insulting. If this was NOT what she was expressing and the article was, indeed, intended to be directed solely to those with the highest ambitions - then DT’s editor needs to get a new job.
Nope. A magazine editor does a good job if he or she can make available a variety of viewpoints to its readers rather than being a mouthpiece for just one POV. DT has done a fantastic job by offering this article.
Please tell me you don’t rely on a magazine article to dictate how you should live your horsey life. Please tell me, too, that you don’t read a newspaper’s OP-ED page and believe that all of those varying viewpoints contributed by readers are - or should be - somehow representative of a party line. Please tell me you don’t really believe anyone is going to read ONE magazine article and promptly go into deep, permanent debt in a misguided attempt to ride “better.” Please?
[QUOTE=Sandy M;2929198]
Dressage Today doesn’t publish articles and editorials saying “Dressage is a crock. Take up cutting or reining. Dressage is abusive…, etc.”
So… while the column maybe “just” Ms. Sydnor’s opinion, it still bears the magazine’s imprimatur: It is telling the dressage community that her opinion is mainstream, acceptable and correct: You need to spend the big bucks, buy the gaits…All very well and good if you are talking about those who are definitely on the track to High Performance. BUT… the vast percentage of dressage riders in this country are adult amateurs, and I think it does a great disservice to “dressage” in general to tell them that, with rare exceptions, ONLY the riders on expensive horses are going to succeed AT ANY LEVEL: Because that’s what she’s saying. She specifically says that in order to become a good rider you need an expensive horse. Not just a “good” horse - because by her definition the only “good” horses are the expensive ones, and while you may improve the “others” you are wasting your time in doing so. And she doesn’t limit it to the competitive arena and showing. She specifically says this advice applies to those who don’t compete as well.
No one is denying that a quality WB costs money and that a quality warmblood is probably the type of horse one should buy if one has high ambitions in the dressage world. But we’ve been told repeatedly that it’s “about the training” and this opinion piece - apparently expressing the beliefs of the Powers That Be (for example, those that propose, among other things, the new qualification rule) gives the lie to that. It puts an emphasis on the idea that you need to spend big bucks to succeed in “dressage,” rather than simply enjoy and try to improve the horse you have if that is what you want to do either because of your relationship with that horse or simply because you cannot afford to do otherwise (but the article encourages going into debt! for a luxury! for a hobby!). It adds to what appears to be dressage’s EXCLUSIVITY rather than INCLUSIVITY. I’m sorry, despite all the advocates for this viewpoint, I still think it is condescending and irresponsible, and, to a degree, insulting. If this was NOT what she was expressing and the article was, indeed, intended to be directed solely to those with the highest ambitions - then DT’s editor needs to get a new job.[/QUOTE]
Very many people who buy DT are new to the sport of dressage, and sometimes are new to riding horses all together. These are the same poor souls who are taken advantage of by the many unscrupulous horse dealers and trainers out there. I see happen so often–people spending money that they cannot afford—buying horses that they cannot ride themselves, because they are told that this is what they need to do to ride “dressage.” I think that it is irresponsible of DT to publish something that fuels this sort of common scam, and stupid of DT to offend so many readers and prospective riders and readers.
When I’ve written articles, I’ve always been edited. It wouldn’t take much for an editor to say, “wait a minute, it is not clear who the intended audience is for your article, can you clarify that.” But perhaps the editors were as starry-eyed as some people on this thread who think that just because Ms. Sydnor is a well known, highly credentialed person, that everything she says is above criticism or discussion. :rolleyes:
I am really late in the conversation, didn’t read 19 pages of response but still feel like stating my 2 cents.
I really agree with everything SLC…
It takes the same amount of money each month to pay for a “great” horse as a mediocre horse. Not everyone wants to move up the levels, or has competitive goals, but I get the feeling many times that holding on to an individuals untalented, untrained, mediocre horse is a copout - If they had bought a well trained, good quality horse, and seriously pursued their real goals and failed, then what. I think the idea of failure is too scary for some people or maybe success is… The crazy thing is that they might actually have succeeded! Usually those horses are more unsound, have more health issues and never will really get anywhere. It makes me really sad to watch people spending lots of time (which is money) and money on horses that will never go beyond 1st level. I am sorry but 1st level isn’t much fun. Yep a wonderfully uphill, powerful mover does feel great around a 20 meter circle or a perfect trot canter transition does feel great but who’s kidding who here, Half pass, pirouette and piaffe is soooo much more fun! Even if just having fun is your goal, then have some fun!!! There are great schoolmasters that can teach each person how to ride, youngsters, 1st level horses don’t. plain and simple.
People who say, I can’t afford a 50K , so I buy the nicest youngster I can find, is basically financing a nice horse (making monthly payments on a horse until they can ride it or monthly training bill etc.) but MOST times the horse turns out to be nothing but a 1st level horse because the owner isn’t a trainer, doesn’t REALLY know how to train a young horse and never it never goes anywhere. A good quality horse is nothing without good quality training.
Now more than ever, there are great quality horses, for a decent price. There are more FEI horses to choose from, the prices have come down, the training is better here, it is a super time to buy a horse in the US. I know that taking out a loan to buy a horse may not be right for everyone. But, I sure think that one not only shouldn’t criticize someone for doing or for saying it’s a great option, because really it is a great option for many people.
I wish it didn’t take $$$ to buy nice horses or to get better scores at shows but it does … coupled with good riding.
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