goes to bucking when out of comfort zone

[kande04]

@Abbie.S

But a horse that chooses to go through the physical effort to buck someone off at slight provocations (you haven’t said WHAT you’re asking for when he bucks) either has a bit of a screw loose or is actually not broke to ride.

We are assuming, in this case, that this is not a pain issue.

It’s not just the considerable physical effort, because very few riders can sit on a bucking horse without punishing his mouth and back, which is why the majority of horses learn not to buck unless the pain and/or fear that provokes the bucking is worse than the punishment they experience after they start bucking.

Not to mention that trainers will further punish the horse on the lunge after they get bucked off, to help make sure that the horse isn’t rewarded for bucking.

IOW, there isn’t really much in it for the horse other than some short term relief from something that would have to be more punishing than what happens after he starts bucking.

[kande04]

@findeight

Then you, meaning well, have inadvertently reinforced his idea that bucking=not having to work. And he knows you are scared of him and won’t force him to work more then a short time or do anything he even hints at objecting to.

I very much doubt that this horse is trying to get out of work, because the more I read about his reactions the more it sounds like a fear issue to me.

IME, fearful horses don’t mind working for as long as they feel safe enough, but because they’re already close to the edge they will panic whenever anything happens that pushes them even a little bit over threshold. That may seem like they don’t want to work, but my bet is that the discomfort of hard work is nothing compared to the fear they experience.

[4horses]

Get an antibucking device. It keeps them from tucking their head to the knees and pulling the reins out of your hands.

Like this
https://www.google.com/search?q=antibucking+device+horses&prmd=sivn&sxsrf=ACYBGNTrvhjGNfp0kR2SVJqKwi-MH1dpVQ:1576611432992&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjx46Wjt73mAhWuct8KHZtoAncQ_AUoAnoECA4QAg&biw=962&bih=601#imgrc=oRaHJuoVZjWrEM

But i would spend a lot more time trying to figure out why he bucks? When does he buck? Etc.

Introduce the device on the lunge, keep it loose and very gradually tighten.

How often is the horse worked? For how long?

[findeight]

That’s similar to an over check used on harness horses, tho that typically comes back from the crown between the ears. And this version is also called an anti grazing rein on a saddle horse. It restricts the horse from putting its head down. If you think that’s going to stop a confirmed bucket? You haven’t really had one of those yet. It will not teach one not to buck and could scare them if they try to fight it and fall.

Not arguing that lack of trust if not outright fear is a big part of this horses issues. That’s what has to be fixed.

[kevdeb]

Agree it is fear. Anti bucking gear will most likely cause a rear like when I pulled his head up. I am open to everything as he is a permanent member of my family. I am in southern ca area and have someone who is agreeable to at least once a week, maybe twice, starting in the new year. Full time would be better but I tried that and don’t want to make the same mistake again. I told the head trainer on several occasions he has fear issues not lack of respect or bully type mindset. Does not EVER challenge, submissive, just splits if truly scared or bucks if you are on him. Use to run backwards or over me at dramatic high speed. Does not do this anymore, trusts me on the ground. Everyone has great input and advice, thankyou!!!

[Abbie.S]

OP - have you ever thought about making this horse a carriage horse?

Carriage driving brings with it similar challenges for the horse who has a mounted rider because you are not right there at the horse’s side to face scary things with him. Just as under saddle, your spacial relationship puts him in the position of being “ahead of you” so to speak. You can still challenge him and build his confidence while never putting yourself in the position of getting bucked off.

It does, of course, come with its own set of dangers, as you don’t know whether he will buck in the harness if he gets triggered, but in my mind there while there is no “safe” place to be with this horse, on his back is the most dangerous.

Someone far wiser than I, in response to the question about how to get a horse to quit bucking, said this: “I don’t want him to never buck again. I just want him to get so comfortable and secure that he doesn’t ever feel like he has to pull that out with me again. If my horse was an onion with a rotten patch, lots of folks would be tempted to carve that rotten patch out, but I just want to cover it up with so many good experiences that is gets good and buried.” Anytime someone talks to me about reforming a horse, I think back to that analogy. If you are going to have success with this horse, I think it’s going to come in the form of deeply burying this tendency with overwhelming positive interaction.

[4horses]

I often use an antibucking device on the lunge… Introduced just like you would with side reins or any other training device. I’ve only needed it under saddle once with a horse who had learned he was strong enough to yank either the rider out of the saddle, or that he could pig root and get the rider off… But that is different than a scared young horse that mentally checks out.

So this comes back to the fear issue. Pony him off another horse with a pack saddle… Get some miles on him. Spend more time on ground work. But you really need to identify what triggers him? What he is reacting too? Why? What spooks him that causes him to buck?

Why don’t you want him with a full time trainer? As a horse like this needs daily work… Even if it’s just repeating the same lesson to perfection. Bucking can be just as dangerous under harness. I wouldn’t think that would make things any safer. A bucking/bolting horse with a cart attached…ugh.

If he were mine, he would get a gps put on him should he-god forbid- break away and run off, and he would be ponied everywhere off of a nice calm horse. Go to horse shows, roping or penning events and ride around, go to trail rides etc.

My Paso is terrified of many things, but i know him well enough to identify triggers.

#1 gunshots and fireworks
#2 people - people walking, people on 4 wheelers, people with fishing poles, children running
#3 whips
#4 sudden movements from people
#5 lots of horse trailers and people moving around
#6 being in a new location overnight
#7 bugs. This horse has an aversion to biting flies and will loose his marbles when attacked.

He doesn’t buck, but scoots forward and tries to escape what ever is bothering him. He shakes and gets terrified.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹Most horses don’t randomly behave badly. There’s a triggering event or stimulus. The random ones are scary. I had one who pulled stunts- buck, rear, bolt, spin bolt, airs above the ground etc. He would pull stunts randomly and you could never relax or drop your guard with him. If you were lucky, he warned you. It was a temperament problem and was not something you could train out or put more miles on. Not that I didn’t try… But i concluded that he was who he was and nothing is going to change that. He found someone who loved him despite his problems and he spent his life with her until passing. He was rare case. Most horses are not as randomly bad. Most horses had triggers. His were not identified or perhaps he had ulcers…

Another thing i would consider is retiring this horse. Is it worth a permanent injury to ride this horse? My concern is spontaneous recovery of a behavior thought to be extinct. He could do well for months or years, then see something scary and buck you off or bolt… As the behavior may resurface when least expected.

At this point, he’s young and moldable so i would continue to try. But really look at what situations have caused him to become unhinged.

”‹”‹”‹”‹

[kevdeb]

Don’t have the desire to drive him but another idea is giant dog pal or pack horse for my long hikes. Also, I have been reading a lot of other mustang starters and they too have had some wild rides that just sorta stopped after awhile on their own (?). That would be nice. I have also looked into full time training. This requires money, giving up the awesome situation I now have (sheltered 24x48) unless I paid for both and of course transportation there and back. The trainer I am using now is great with him but I would have to suck it up as I hate the place she works out of having boarded there before. Other trainers I am looking at have long waiting lists, are not interested in a mustang, and/or have some rather old fashion ideas similar to the tying up legs etc. I am considering the move to the current trainer offer who so far has ridden him without getting tossed. Although he hasn’t tried and I am doubtful she could ride through it but maybe catch it before it got going. Will look into the antibucking strap on a lunge IF I get bucked again. So far just working him in every way I can think of. The latest: cement pavers and bricks buried in a large teddy bear tied into a saddle also weighted down. Bloody hard to get off afterwards…dumb idea but worth seeing he didn’t lose it just had trouble balancing himself during the canter with such an uneven topsy turvy big weight. BTW, I don’t recommend it. If he had bronced and somehow got things loosened up he could have gotten hurt. Sometimes I WILL TRY ANYTHING! LOL Ahain, thanks to all.

[kevdeb]

will ask this trainer if she agrees to full time at her place if she can pony him a lot.

[quietann]

Eek on “turn this horse into a carriage horse.” Please don’t go there! There are horses that can’t be ridden because of physical issues, but are great driving horses. Mental “checking out” is just as dangerous, if not more, in a carriage horse.

A good friend gave up on her carriage prospect after the horse “checked out” and bolted and bucked hard… not once, but three times, with 3 different trainers, the first two riding, and one of them was badly injured. The third one told her the horse would never be safe as a carriage horse, especially for your average AA driver. The horse had almost always been driven in a pair before my friend bought it, which may have prevented the behavior and/or given the horse enough comfort that it would not go there.

[RMJacobs]

Yes, what @quietann said. No way would I want to drive a horse that bucked as a response to fear, or for any other reason.

My Hackney pony would occasionally pop up a bit in front or rear when he was upset, but never did a full-fledged rear or buck in harness. That is very dangerous and would have been grounds for retraining or retirement. Luckily just making him move his feet would stop the hints at misbehavior to come.

Rebecca

[kande04]

@kevdeb

Agree it is fear. Anti bucking gear will most likely cause a rear like when I pulled his head up. I am open to everything as he is a permanent member of my family. I am in southern ca area and have someone who is agreeable to at least once a week, maybe twice, starting in the new year. Full time would be better but I tried that and don’t want to make the same mistake again. I told the head trainer on several occasions he has fear issues not lack of respect or bully type mindset. Does not EVER challenge, submissive, just splits if truly scared or bucks if you are on him. Use to run backwards or over me at dramatic high speed. Does not do this anymore, trusts me on the ground. Everyone has great input and advice, thankyou!!!

I, and several friends, are now clicker trainers because of horses like this.

Part of what CT has taught us is that we need to train at the speed our fearful horses are able to learn, rather than at the speed we expected to be able to go. CT, IMO, was much better at teaching us that particular lesson, because there’s no simple way to up the pressure so we had to learn to become better, more observant trainers if we were ever going to be able to make progress with our “special needs” horses.

[kande04]

@kevdeb

seeing he didn’t lose it just had trouble balancing himself during the canter with such an uneven topsy turvy big weight. BTW, I don’t recommend it. If he had bronced and somehow got things loosened up he could have gotten hurt. Sometimes I WILL TRY ANYTHING! LOL Ahain, thanks to all.

Maybe sand or grain bags next time? I do the “dumb jockey” and weight separately first, so they can see what the jockey moving in the saddle looks like, and then the weight feels like before I combine them. I also do it many times with a horse who has lost it before or loses it during, because I want them to be fully habituated before I get on.

[Brown_Derby]

I am guessing that this horse has not been worked from above, at all. I have seen people hop on their ex-standardbred racers and those horses just about split in two because they’ve never seen anything up above. Just as some young horses panic if you start posting on your first ride.

If nothing else, stand on a mounting block and work with him a little. Actually, work with him a lot. The cowboys work them on horseback to get them used to people above their line of vision. Buck B. and many others work with them from a fence, and mount from a fence. This is basically your first ride and it is critical, imo (hey it’s free) to a calm ride.

I feel it is also important to work from above on both sides, and eventually mount and dismount from both sides. How many times have we fallen off on the near side and the horse just stands there looking at us? Fall off on the right side, and yahoo, might get kicked at too.

The weight of the saddle etc. has nothing to do with this behavior, imo.

I adore mustangs and most of the ones I’ve worked with are, I swear, old souls. Born at about age 16.

[kande04]

@4horses

Another thing i would consider is retiring this horse. Is it worth a permanent injury to ride this horse? My concern is spontaneous recovery of a behavior thought to be extinct. He could do well for months or years, then see something scary and buck you off or bolt… As the behavior may resurface when least expected.

The reactions get less frequent and less violent as they gain experience. And, fortunately, they age faster than we do, and if we can stick with them they often make good horses eventually. I’ve always looked at the more challenging horses as learning experiences, as they tend to teach us stuff that easier horses wouldn’t have.

[findeight]

Please don’t use the “ dumb jockey”. If he happens to get loose ( bolt and pull the line out of your hand or stumble and get a leg over it forcing you to let go for example) he won’t be able to get rid of it. Seen that. You do not want that. Trust me. Don’t say he can’t get loose either, he’s a horse, they find ways.

Lets not lose sight of the fact his early life experiences were vastly different then domestic raised horses and his initial human contact was being treated like a steer, forced not taught. Some of the things that we take for granted in the domestic raised horse just are not there with a feral horse. They just see the world differently and you have to get inside their heads more to try to figure out why they react as they do. Much of the standard early training advice just doesn’t work as quickly or at all with feral horses. At the very least, it’s going to take longer so throw out the calendar and don’t pay too much attention to the peanut gallery and their suggestions and tales of how quick they did it. You aren’t them and they didn’t do it with your horse.

IMO it is regrettable he got roughed up by that wannabe cowboy, that probably set him back way more then it helped him learn to relax and trust.

He is still young and you need to give it time and be sure to be consistent with what you do with him, be sure anybody else does it the same way. He will improve at his own rate as he slowly gets past old instinct and learns to trust more. Patience.

On the driving suggestion. Most barns in So Cal are landlocked or in steep terrain. All but one state I’ve boarded in were light on drivers due to no place to drive. And you need something to hitch the horse to and a place to store it. Not a go to solution for everybody. Not one for the unique set of issues here anywhere.

[Brown_Derby]

@findeight

Please don’t use the “ dumb jockey”. If he happens to get loose ( bolt and pull the line out of your hand or stumble and get a leg over it forcing you to let go for example) he won’t be able to get rid of it. Seen that. You do not want that. Trust me. Don’t say he can’t get loose either, he’s a horse, they find ways.

Thank you for that *findeight. That is so backyard yahoo I am amazed the myth is still around. Just plain cruelty.

[kande04]

@findeight

Please don’t use the “ dumb jockey”. If he happens to get loose ( bolt and pull the line out of your hand or stumble and get a leg over it forcing you to let go for example) he won’t be able to get rid of it. Seen that. You do not want that. Trust me. Don’t say he can’t get loose either, he’s a horse, they find ways.

Yet trainers routinely attach the lunge line to a bit or a cavesson and then the line gets ripped out of their hands and there’s the horse running around with the line trailing, stepping on it, getting tangled in it, yanking on his mouth or nose the entire time.

Horses are lunged with saddles and the stirrups flop around, they’re lunged with sidereins and long lines, and all have the potential to cause damage if the horse panics and gets loose.

The idea is to do our best to habituate the horse as safely as possible, which doesn’t mean we skip steps, but only that we spend the time to make sure the horse is ready for the next step by preparing him before we go on.

The dumb jockey is a necessary step for a horse who bucks when he gets scared, and the whole idea of it is that the dumb jockey does not come off, but stays put through whatever the horse does to get rid of it. The time for this lesson is when the trainer is 99% sure that the horse is ready for a rider, as a final test before someone gets on and finds out that the horse wasn’t actually ready for a rider after all.