Green horse and "progress"

[Paint_Party]

@Arelle

My five year old has recently been relegated back to the round pen because she was snorting at and leaping over her own shadow.

That she’s had.

Her entire life.

I am in the same movie. I’ve been riding this otherwise sane, lovely Paint mare (she’s 5 this year) and a couple of months ago she got terrorized by the wind blowing through a rickety horse trailer temporarily parked by the arena rail. It was really rattling, and it was more than her Red Mare Brain could handle.

Fast forward to now and every 15th or so trip down that side of the arena-- on perfectly calm days and long after that specific trailer has been moved– she just has to get tense/elevate her head/attempt to spontaneously leg yield 10 feet toward the center of the arena. You know. Just in case the Wind Witch could be lurking.

Yet take her to a show, even in a crowded indoor, and she’s unflappable.

So, OP, take heart in knowing that this can be Scenes from a Life with a young, athletic, green horse.

[Ponyplusaninch]

Whoever said to look at progress compared over months or even years is 100% spot on. I got my first TB only recently. While he was older, he had gone through a 4+ string of simply inconsistent, not-great-owners in two years since coming off the track. So we ended up treating him like the baby he really was. And like, there were some really good weeks where he was just trucking along and making progress. And then I can recall specific weeks happening where I was like “there is no way this horse is going to end up doing what we want let alone working out for me” (ie being an ammie hunter).

I think I actually may have been at the 9 or 10 month mark when he managed to spin me off 4 times in a month–and only one of those times remotely made sense (bird flew in his face).

The thing that’s kept me going is journaling weekly what went well. For example, I could not sit his trot the first few months. Rolling around to month #6, he gained more weight, and I finally found a way to really melt my leg around him. Little victory for sure, but still a victory!

Also, FWIW, I’ve now had my guy for two years, and it’s really just now–like last three months–we’ve seen him really start accelerate his learning curve (and subsequently his performance). It’s not like he wasn’t learning before, but it was much slower going and required consistent hand-holding in the form of regular pro rides. Now he’s putting 2+2 together on his own and not needing as much hand-holding from the pro or from me.

[MapleBreeze]

I think with green horses sometimes when you feel like you’re going 2 steps backwards you really just need to change the language. Work with a different trainer, break it down into smaller pieces or make sure the abc’s are really clear.

[Fiesta01]

Apparently, not the Sherlock Holmes of the horse world.

[endlessclimb]

Or just ignore the two steps backwards and ride the horse you’ve got that day.

They go two steps backwards for seemingly no reason sometimes. It’s a baby horse thing. Laugh at it, go for a trail ride instead, and try again in a day or two.

[findeight]

Not really enough specific info about how often horse is worked with, how long the session is, the turnout situation and other details would help target advice if OP checks back in and cares to share.

Thing with OTTBs some misunderstand is they ARE trained, often more then non track horses and some of that is more advanced, like entering the starting gate and even leads. They know alot for their age. Trouble is its a different skill set then most want. So time has to be spent unlearning before it can be retaught which can take longer then starting from scratch.

Other big thing is OTTBs come out of a very regimented daily routine, everything the same way at the same time every day and every handler or rider is a Pro (not to say they are all good here) there’s always lots of other horses around. Then we transition them into a totally different environment, lifestyle, less regimented schedule, usually much less work and totally different handler/rider at assorted skill levels.

Its a huge adjustment and can complicate the untraining and retraining. Horse and/or the fact its off the track gets blamed for doing what it was taught and what it was bred for. They just don’t know and miss that set daily routine and mileage that made learning easier for them at the track.

Regardless of breed or type; NEVER try to please barnmates and onlookers. Most of the louder ones don’t have any experience with this and parrot what they read on the internet Seems to be coming up here often lately. Its your horse your goals and your timeline, not theirs. These railbirds need to spend their time on their butts in the saddle on their own horse not the bench.

If you do need help, pay a qualified Pro.

[DawgLady]

This time of year is super challenging. I have a 5 year old who is typically dead quiet and compliant. Lately he’s been a spooky nutbag. The other day he lost his sh*t over a bird. A bird that was outside the ring. So I TOTALLY get it.

In my case, the weather and limited turnout in muddy conditions is the enemy. Are you facing something similar? It is cold and windy where you are? Does your horse get less turnout in winter than summer?

[endlessclimb]

@DawgLady

In my case, the weather and limited turnout in muddy conditions is the enemy. Are you facing something similar? It is cold and windy where you are? Does your horse get less turnout in winter than summer?

And any chance you could cut him loose somewhere with good footing (arena) for 20-30 minutes so he can get the extra-stupid out? Even with a million hours of turnout, if the footing is junk they won’t do the run-buck-fart that is lurking in there

[DawgLady]

Oh yes. When I called my trainer after Birdgate, she gave me permission to chase him around the indoor on an as-needed basis. So far it’s helping.

[FjordBCRF]

@Horse_ghost92

Is it normal for a green horse to take 2 steps forward and then 5 steps back? Even a year or two years into training?

I don’t carry as much experience as others with young ones, however this has 100% been my experience with getting Charlie as a 3 year old. He is 5 now. Someone mentioned looking at progress over months/years and I think doing that is really telling. This time last year, we were just figuring out how to canter with some degree of balance, very heavy stepping, we were not round or even close to getting on the bit, backing up was a little hairy…he got the idea over turning on the forehand/haunches. From ride to ride, it felt like progress was slow and often times two steps forward one step back.

Looking back a year later and where we are now on the other hand, I am really proud of what we have accomplished. All those things we were working on are significantly improved. With that said, other things have cropped up along the way. When we started cantering, he was pretty consistent picking up the correct lead. Then all of the sudden, our left lead was non-existent. I chalked it up to him maybe going through a growth spurt and feeling off balance, had the chiro out who said he had a little stiffness in that shoulder, did some stretching with him, and didn’t hammer him on getting it. A couple months later of it being winter and mostly just being able to be out on trails, we are better than ever with what we have been working on.

@Arelle

My five year old has recently been relegated back to the round pen because she was snorting at and leaping over her own shadow.

We are currently going through this a little bit as well. I think he is bored from the winter, it’s still cooler out, he is more fit than he has been, and needs to be challenged a bit more. As a 3 year old in a new place, he rarely spooked for the first year or so and it just started more recently. They go through phases as they grow and learn. I am hoping this one will soon be over

Keeping expectations reasonable and not having a timeline offer you the ability to really work with him through things without the stress of what’s next. I have all the time in the world and no goals other than progress (even if it is slow) which makes it all the more enjoyable for me.

[colorfan]

Many years ago I heard John Lyons say, my paraphrase because I don’t remember exactly, a horse learns-forgets, learns-tries something else, then actually truly learns the original lesson.

I think, especially with a good natured horse that tries hard, they sometimes just get lucky that what they do is what we want, they don’t actually know yet but we think they do and keep asking for more until they just don’t know which answer to give anymore. Thats what we call blowing up/too much energy/even regressing.
When my horse acts up I go back to something he does know and then try to break down the situation he blew up in into smaller bits. Sometimes it means getting off and practicing on the ground, sometimes it means asking slower, sometimes it means doing more suppling.
I have been amazed at how I can give my horse a break and come back and its like he is 2 or 3 steps further than when we left off.
It can be hard to notice progress because we instantly add a step or three as soon as we get a step or two, I am sure if you could see yourself when you first started to now you would see huge differences.

[endlessclimb]

I really like the way you worded this, bravo.

Way back when I was first trying to teach my (now old, then young) gelding flying changes, we kept hitting a wall with it being late behind, or non-existent behind. I knew nothing compared to what I know now (this was 19 years ago!), so I just resigned myself that he would never learn them and stopped trying.

Six months later or so, on a whim I asked for the change and voila, there it was.

Green horses are the most exhilarating, frustrating, rewarding, aggravating things ever. You almost HAVE to look at progress on a monthly, bi-monthly, or quarterly basis so you don’t tear your hair out.

[Tha_Ridge]

@RedHorses

Think about what you are comparing the forward/backwards steps to. Think about what the specific issues you’re dealing with now compared with the issues you were dealing with last summer.

This is so true. My baby TB has been especially hard-headed lately (changing seasons, mare, maybe some gut issues that we’re getting resolved) and it’s so easy to fall into the trap of “Ugh, she’s so wild, we aren’t making any progress, I don’t even want to ride her!” Then I remember that in our “bad” lesson two days ago, she cantered her first real line, in the real number, straight as an arrow… when she could barely trot a gate a month ago. Progress isn’t always pretty, but it doesn’t mean it’s not progress.

[Victorious]

This is so sage. TB’s can be so discounted because they behave in the very way they have been trained!
And the last paragraph…apllies to every aspect of life, as well! Your life…your path!

[173north]

Can we just make this thread a green horse support group? Mine was a DREAM all week, I was talking him up like crazy to my trainer… then he was a little cow during our lesson today. But even on his ‘total cow’ days he’s a reasonably functioning citizen, which he was not 6 months ago! Trying to keep it in perspective.

[findeight]

You don’t have to “ talk up” your Green horse, let the horse speak for you. There is nothing you need to prove to trainer before your lesson. It is defending yourself and horse in anticipation of doing something wrong and thats the wrong mindset. Adjust your thinking and don’t apologize for a Green horse being…Green. Thats what you pay the trainer to help you with and a great choice on your part.

Always remember the saying “Horses are the Sport of Kings” is also known as “The Sport that Humbles Kings”. And the greatest truth in working with horses is “Horses excel at making a liar out of you”.

Stay humble. Especially to railbirds.

[RAyers]

My current horse is literally an OTTB. I bought him off the back stretch, cash on the barrel. As noted previously, these horses are unbelievably well trained in many ways.

I’m not sure if you have this or you have a horse that went through some form of retraining or other and is more of an “indirect” OTTB. You don’t say if you are doing your own training or working with a trainer.

I am FOUR YEARS out and we are still slowly growing and learning. There is NO timeline nor any explicit determination for training. I would say my guy is pretty much a completed Novice Level Eventer/1 meter jumper/1st level dressage horse. But in my mind, because of my background, he is still green and growing. His next phase of training is lots of competitions. I look at a 5 year plan of training rather than months or even a year.

1 step forward and 5 steps back always happens. It is the good trainer/rider/horseman who recognizes this and rephrases the training to set up the next 7 steps forward and patiently works these steps as long as it takes.

Other issues are that as green horses learn their ride changes! You don’t ride an unbacked horse the same way you ride a 1.4 meter jumper or a grade stakes racer. You have to be able to change your ride as the horse grows so you ride less defensive and work more to a dynamic ride. Sometimes this change happens in a week and sometimes a year. The key is to make sure you aren’t riding the horse you had yesterday. You have to ride the horse you have today and tomorrow. Ride what you have at that moment but also ride expecting the horse to grow to the next level. The horse will tell you if they are capable.

The zero brain cells are AWESOME!! The genetics of an OTTB tells them to RUN. You can’t fight that and nor should you, in my opinion. The key is to make sure you have enough road and runout that they can do it. It is something that is almost impossible to answer in an arena. Of course you, as the rider must be confident and competent so that you can let them run out under you. There is an insane amount of joy when they truly pull onto the bit and go into a real, full out gallop, with a genuine suspension phase in gait. There is almost nothing like taking a full cross and dropping down, letting them answer what their heart tells them to do. It is the closest I’ve ever come to truly understanding a horse in their language. So, yeah, I will never try to eliminate the “green” zero brain cells moments. Their brain is functioning fine. They are just chasing their hearts.

[173north]

Eh, maybe “talking him up” was unclear wording, or we just have different styles in how we communicate about our horses, but I don’t feel that saying “he was great today!” when my trainer asks how my ride went demonstrates a lack of humbleness or the “wrong mindset.”

[findeight]

Well, you said you were talking him up to your trainer but he acted like a “ little cow” in the lesson which I read as apologetic. Its hard to convey many things in just text.

[FjordBCRF]

Great example happened here today! Trail ride, at a walk, after two days of arena work and working earlier in the week.

Had a couple spooks over nothing, granted the wind was a little wild today so not bad considering. I could feel him tensing up so I asked him for some work. Walk/halt/back transitions, leg yielding, and some other lateral stuff here and there to get his attention. Asked for a side pass which we started working on last year with little understanding. He did it like we’ve been working it regularly. Both directions. So I’ll call todays ride a win even though the spookiness annoys the bejesus out of me!